Controversial Ancient Weapons doesn't make sense

[Celestial D. Dragon]

Everything says that.

Ancient Kingdom. JoyBoy. Nika. Zunesha. Minks. Wano. Fishmen. D family. Everyone was against WG and now are minorities, excluded etc.

They weren't the World Government back then. They were just 20 Countries who banded together to take on the Ancient Kingdom, for current reasons unknown.

Power corrupts people. As far as we know, the 20 Kingdoms could have started off on a Noble cause. From what we know, Lily, a D, started off on the side of the 20 Kingdoms, and turned on them at the end. She wouldn't have started off on thier side, if they were had evil intentions from the beginning.

 

[K!NG HARA$H!MA]

is very clear that Ancient Kingdom as a whole doesn't make sense. So advanced yet they lost to what should be primates to them

Barbarian always win against the civilized and advanced

 

[PortgasDMor]

Tell me if I got this right.

All 3 Ancient Weapons are from Void Century build by Ancient Kingdom in order to fight back those 20 nations that build what we know of WG today.

The prove of it is one weapon being at Wano an ally country of Ancient Kingdom and the other being at Fishmen Island another ally country.

Somehow it seems Imu posses Uranus.

So how those Ancient Weapons can be any relevant if they already lost in past and now WG posses one of them?

And how blueprints of Pluton would be any relevant too?

Do you remember when Oda took a month break and there were these "Road to Laugh Tale" summaries? On part 3 there's a summary about Joy Boy with important quotes about the Ancient Weapons. When I was working on it to translate I suddenly realized that each ancient weapon might actually consist of 3 things:
1. Controlling person of some race
2. Large animals
3. A huge ship.
With Posiedon, we know of all of them: Shirahoshi, Sea Kings and Noah.
With Pluton, there's the ship, burried under Wano, and it's blueprints in Franky's mind. There's also Momo, controlling Zunesha. We don't know yet if they are related to the ancient weapons but we know for sure Zunesha was Joy Boy's nakama (both crew member and friend).
Uranus is still a mystery, but as we've seen Imu control something big and strong enough to obliterate an island, it is a logical conjecture that Imu is the controlling person of whatever that was.

As for the Ancient Kindom, we know that they possessed high end technology, but not that they possessed all 3 ancient weapons. In fact, think of it for a moment: if all ancient weapons are held by the same side, there would be no war. Even if they were all created by the same side, there has to be some treason of at least one of them for a war to take place. And we know Zunesha committed some sort of "sin" and was punished for it. I think Zunesha was manipulated to betray Joy Boy just as Queen Lili betrayed the 20 founders of the WG.

As for the blueprints of Pluton, my guess is that someone will come to Wano to try to claim it (that's why Yamato stayed there eventually). It could be a pirate or someone related to the WG. Some battle will ensue, which will cause Wano's borders to open and Pluton to be free. Either this enemy will seize Pluton, or it is destroyed in the process. That's where Franky must come into the picture and either repair Pluton, or build a replica.

 

[Herrera95]

They weren't the World Government back then. They were just 20 Countries who banded together to take on the Ancient Kingdom, for current reasons unknown.

Power corrupts people. As far as we know, the 20 Kingdoms could have started off on a Noble cause. From what we know, Lily, a D, started off on the side of the 20 Kingdoms, and turned on them at the end. She wouldn't have started off on thier side, if they were had evil intentions from the beginning.

Why are you bringing the discussion of evil and good? Wrong or right? That not what we are arguing.

Doesn't matter who is evil or right, although much likely Ancient Kingdom was a bunch of son of a bitch, the thing is they were ally with those nations I mentioned. Therefore they had the possession of Ancient Weapons.

Post automatically merged: Jun 5, 2023

Barbarian always win against the civilized and advanced

Actually not.

 

[ArturCantSpeakJapanese]

So they build Uranus-2 with blueprints of original Uranus?

Post automatically merged: Jun 4, 2023

It is very clear that Ancient Kingdom as a whole doesn't make sense. So advanced yet they lost to what should be primates to them.

The Carrington Event in history shows that a global geomagnetic storm would be catastrophic. If one happened today it would effectively shut down all technology and send us back to the dark ages

 

[Herrera95]

Do you remember when Oda took a month break and there were these "Road to Laugh Tale" summaries? On part 3 there's a summary about Joy Boy with important quotes about the Ancient Weapons. When I was working on it to translate I suddenly realized that each ancient weapon might actually consist of 3 things:
1. Controlling person of some race
2. Large animals
3. A huge ship.
With Posiedon, we know of all of them: Shirahoshi, Sea Kings and Noah.
With Pluton, there's the ship, burried under Wano, and it's blueprints in Franky's mind. There's also Momo, controlling Zunesha. We don't know yet if they are related to the ancient weapons but we know for sure Zunesha was Joy Boy's nakama (both crew member and friend).
Uranus is still a mystery, but as we've seen Imu control something big and strong enough to obliterate an island, it is a logical conjecture that Imu is the controlling person of whatever that was.

As for the Ancient Kindom, we know that they possessed high end technology, but not that they possessed all 3 ancient weapons. In fact, think of it for a moment: if all ancient weapons are held by the same side, there would be no war. Even if they were all created by the same side, there has to be some treason of at least one of them for a war to take place. And we know Zunesha committed some sort of "sin" and was punished for it. I think Zunesha was manipulated to betray Joy Boy just as Queen Lili betrayed the 20 founders of the WG.

As for the blueprints of Pluton, my guess is that someone will come to Wano to try to claim it (that's why Yamato stayed there eventually). It could be a pirate or someone related to the WG. Some battle will ensue, which will cause Wano's borders to open and Pluton to be free. Either this enemy will seize Pluton, or it is destroyed in the process. That's where Franky must come into the picture and either repair Pluton, or build a replica.

Just reminding that this are assumptions. I for rule doesn't take anything outside of manga as canon. Manga already contradicts itselfs sometimes.

There is no 3 rules for Ancient Weapon. They don't necessarily have to be controlled by different race people. Pluton is a ship anyone can control it. Pretty sure Uranus is just the same. And there are no big animals related to them and no Big ship for Uranus. It is on the sky.

That said I agree that Uranus may not have been in possession of Ancient Kingdom. But if we think logically, which Oda doesn't do, as you said would never happen a war if they got all 3 Ancient Weapons (which I disagree) but if Uranus was never in possession of Ancient Kingdom then why the war didn't happened earlier? It would make sense for Zunesha to betrayal JoyBoy and somehow give Uranus to those 20 nations. But then why would he be condemned to walk 1000 years? If he helped the winning side who would do that to him? And if Zunesha only take orders from Kozuki why he would betrayal?

We lack to know who condemned Zunesha and the reason of course.

But going back to my argument. World Government was the winning side and they didn't got their hands on Ancient Weapons other than Uranus or Ancient Kingdom technology. Why if they were so advanced? They tried to get the blueprints of Pluton but never tries to read Poneglyphs and find Pluton itself (maybe already know it is at Wano?). What is the poor excuse of not invading Wano and opening the borders? Initially was Ryuuma portraying how strong Samurais are but then the strongest Samurai we saw from Wano was Oden who lost to a much weaker Kaido (could have won but still was at his level) and then the Scabbards. Plus Greenbull showed up not giving a fuck about Samurais and Alliance he only was afraid of Kaido. And Samurai even with Yamato help and Momonosuke couldn't do shit against him(minimal damage only).

So why WG didn't used their full force to invade Wano and take Pluton and also erasing Fishmen race so Poseidon would never born again? The most logical answer but still not that good is that Ancient Weapons lost the battle to WG. Even with their technology and those weapons they lost the war. Then WG just took the weapon it was more beneficial for them.

Post automatically merged: Jun 5, 2023

The Carrington Event in history shows that a global geomagnetic storm would be catastrophic. If one happened today it would effectively shut down all technology and send us back to the dark ages

???????????

 

[AlmightyGunther43]

It's a very simple explanation, actually. This has been done before in other stories. The reason why an Ancient Kingdom with Super Tech loses is because it was attacked by many different groups of people at the same time. This is precisely why the Alliance of 20 Kingdoms exists. It was created to wage war against the Ancient Kingdom with Super Tech. You don't need more of an explanation than this.

 

[X18999]

You also have to consider the Ancient Kingdom might have been unwilling to erase islands of people to save themselves.

 

[PortgasDMor]

Just reminding that this are assumptions. I for rule doesn't take anything outside of manga as canon. Manga already contradicts itselfs sometimes.

There is no 3 rules for Ancient Weapon.

The "Road to Laugh Tale" was simply a summary of canon panels relating to the same topic.
The 3 points I mentioned were my own conclusion from seeing all these panels side by side. Surely a conclusion is not a fact straight from what Oda told us, but it's not a baseless assumption either. What I'm saying is that the pieces of the puzzle could align this way. It's one possibility.

Pretty sure Uranus is just the same. And there are no big animals related to them and no Big ship for Uranus. It is on the sky.

We've already see one ship in the sky - Enel's, so don't rule out the possibility. Uranus is still the most myterious weapon, we have no details about it whatsoever. But we know the full details of Poseidon, and part of the details of Pluton, so we can perform an extrapolation. Again, it's not a fact, but a possible conclusion.

It would make sense for Zunesha to betrayal JoyBoy and somehow give Uranus to those 20 nations. But then why would he be condemned to walk 1000 years? If he helped the winning side who would do that to him? And if Zunesha only take orders from Kozuki why he would betrayal?

Obviously those who punished Zunesha must have been on the betrayed side. I think his punishment included the fact that it could only take orders from Kozuki. It makes sense that if before the war he could have taken orders from anyone, that was how he betrayed his friends.

We lack to know who condemned Zunesha and the reason of course.

We lack many details. It's all a mystery, that's what makes it interesting. I thought this thread was about trying to collect the details we have and try to figure out the bigger picture from it. If you're only interested in collecting the details without trying to sort out the pieces and connect the dots, then what's the point of this thread even?

But going back to my argument. World Government was the winning side and they didn't got their hands on Ancient Weapons other than Uranus or Ancient Kingdom technology. Why if they were so advanced?

Are you asking how they won the war? That's for Oda to tell, but as we've seen, there were probably traitors on both sides. It's not only power that wins wars. Sometimes, determination can be stronger than any weapon. Also, the D's were divided. Remember what Roger told WB about Teach's D?

They tried to get the blueprints of Pluton but never tries to read Poneglyphs and find Pluton itself (maybe already know it is at Wano?). What is the poor excuse of not invading Wano and opening the borders?

If Imu is truly one of the founders, given immortality or something like that, then she already knows the history written on the poneglyphs. Her problem was that others would learn it. So for her, it was never about reading them, but rather trying to destroy them. And they are indestructible and well hidden. Maybe they thought the blueprints of Pluton would be easier to get than taking down Wano's rock wall borders. I don't think just anyone can open Wano's borders. Do you remember that when Momo contemplated about whether to open the borders, Zunesha appeared close to Wano all of a sudden? Why did it come? Perhaps Zunesha is the key to opening its borders?

So why WG didn't used their full force to invade Wano and take Pluton and also erasing Fishmen race so Poseidon would never born again?

Because they couldn't. If they could they would have done it. They almost succeeded with Lunarians though, the race was extinct, save for one "specimen".

 

[Herrera95]

We've already see one ship in the sky - Enel's, so don't rule out the possibility. Uranus is still the most myterious weapon, we have no details about it whatsoever. But we know the full details of Poseidon, and part of the details of Pluton, so we can perform an extrapolation. Again, it's not a fact, but a possible conclusion.

You right about that.

Obviously those who punished Zunesha must have been on the betrayed side. I think his punishment included the fact that it could only take orders from Kozuki. It makes sense that if before the war he could have taken orders from anyone, that was how he betrayed his friends.

It doesn't make sense. If he betrayal he changed sides. Why would he take punishment from them?

We lack many details. It's all a mystery, that's what makes it interesting. I thought this thread was about trying to collect the details we have and try to figure out the bigger picture from it. If you're only interested in collecting the details without trying to sort out the pieces and connect the dots, then what's the point of this thread even?

I'm trying to do it. I'm just looking at the logical reason and all it can be found are plot holes.

Are you asking how they won the war? That's for Oda to tell, but as we've seen, there were probably traitors on both sides. It's not only power that wins wars. Sometimes, determination can be stronger than any weapon. Also, the D's were divided. Remember what Roger told WB about Teach's D?

Bullshit. We never saw any major battle that wasn't decided by power.

If Imu is truly one of the founders, given immortality or something like that, then she already knows the history written on the poneglyphs. Her problem was that others would learn it. So for her, it was never about reading them, but rather trying to destroy them. And they are indestructible and well hidden. Maybe they thought the blueprints of Pluton would be easier to get than taking down Wano's rock wall borders. I don't think just anyone can open Wano's borders. Do you remember that when Momo contemplated about whether to open the borders, Zunesha appeared close to Wano all of a sudden? Why did it come? Perhaps Zunesha is the key to opening its borders?

Her? Why you acting like it is a female? Imu clearly doesn't know the history since they never made to Laugh Tale and is putting no effort in restraining the Red Poneglyphs. One of then were at Fishman Island. Easy to get.

But yes I agree that Zunesha is most likely the key to open the borders. And now also seems pointless to open Wano. Perhaps no one will get Pluton if Momo doesn't want or if they how force him to do it.

Because they couldn't. If they could they would have done it. They almost succeeded with Lunarians though, the race was extinct, save for one "specimen".

Nope they can. They have force to rule the whole World they can make a single war at Wano and took the place. Just look at Kaido. He did it effortlessly. They had Oden back then. Now they don't. It is even easier.

 

[PortgasDMor]

It doesn't make sense. If he betrayal he changed sides. Why would he take punishment from them?

What if he did something like Squardo did? Listened to the other side's advice and then regretted it? If he truly changed sides to the WG, then obviously they never rewarded him for it. He seems ready to do anything to undo the curse by now, and he still thinks of Joy Boy as his nakama.

Bullshit. We never saw any major battle that wasn't decided by power.

All of Luffy's battles were decided more by his willpower than physical power. He was always portrayed as smaller and weaker than his enemy, yet he prevailed. Actually when I wrote this sentence though I had two real-life wars in mind, in which a much smaller army defies and defeats a greater one simply because they believe in their cause, and defend their homeland.

Her? Why you acting like it is a female?

She gives me female vibes. When Oda finally shows her fully, if it's a male I'll talk of him as a male.

Imu clearly doesn't know the history since they never made to Laugh Tale and is putting no effort in restraining the Red Poneglyphs. One of then were at Fishman Island. Easy to get.

Imu refused to answer Cobra's inquiry about her name, and was angry with Lili as if she knew her personally. I may be wrong, but it looks like a hint that Imu is immortal, and has ruled the WG herself ever since the void century. If this guess is true, then Imu knows the history first-hand and has no need of Laugh Tale. Even if I'm wrong, as ruler of the world, surely all information was passed down to her.
Yes, one of the Red Poneglyphs was easy to get, but the one in the tree on top of Zunesha, not so much... Nobody knew where it was unless the minks took them there, and that was only Roger and Luffy. The WG doesn't know where it is, and 3 Poneglyphs will get you nowhere.

Nope they can. They have force to rule the whole World they can make a single war at Wano and took the place. Just look at Kaido. He did it effortlessly. They had Oden back then. Now they don't. It is even easier.

Wano is a natural fortress. Fortresses are usually taken by seige. But Wano was self-sufficient before Kaido took over, so a seige would achieve nothing. Kaido took Wano because he can fly, and had assistance from within. The WG doesn't have an air force. The sea outside Wano is full of shipwrecks for a reason. The sea is stormy with wild currents, and no fleet can climb the waterfall. Even if they sent whatever it was that destroyed Lulusia, it could destroy Pluton as well, and the WG doesn't want it destroyed, it wants to posses it.
Now it is easier to attack Wano, I agree. And I suspect this is about to happen, or else Oda would have let Yamato board the Sunny.

 

[Herrera95]

They weren't the World Government back then. They were just 20 Countries who banded together to take on the Ancient Kingdom, for current reasons unknown.

Power corrupts people. As far as we know, the 20 Kingdoms could have started off on a Noble cause. From what we know, Lily, a D, started off on the side of the 20 Kingdoms, and turned on them at the end. She wouldn't have started off on thier side, if they were had evil intentions from the beginning.

Doesn't matter if they weren't the WG back then. I'm just refering then as WG because it is what they become afterwards.

I agree. WG most likely were the good guys. But what that has to do with what I said previously?

Post automatically merged: Jun 6, 2023

What if he did something like Squardo did? Listened to the other side's advice and then regretted it? If he truly changed sides to the WG, then obviously they never rewarded him for it. He seems ready to do anything to undo the curse by now, and he still thinks of Joy Boy as his nakama.

Don't quote Squardo. Tears comes to my eyes everytime I remember Whitebeard reaction to his "betrayal". What a man!

By the way I don't know if Squardo actually configures as betrayal. He was tricked. He thought WB was the one who betrayed him first.

All of Luffy's battles were decided more by his willpower than physical power. He was always portrayed as smaller and weaker than his enemy, yet he prevailed. Actually when I wrote this sentence though I had two real-life wars in mind, in which a much smaller army defies and defeats a greater one simply because they believe in their cause, and defend their homeland.

Nonsense. Luffy wins his battles by overcoming his opponents physically. From all East Blue fights he was only portrayed as underdog against Arlong because of the fishmen plot of being stronger than humans.

At Paradise he was only portrayed inferior against Crocodile, Enel, Blueno, Lucci and maybe Moriah? He had some villains between them that he didn't looked inferior.

At New World he was portrayed as inferior against Doflamingo (not so sure though), Katakuri and Kaido. Again he had some villains between tham that he didn't looked inferior.

Pretty much all his battles were won by physical force. We could argue that Katakuri(I don't even consider he won) was won with willpower. But that's it.

She gives me female vibes. When Oda finally shows her fully, if it's a male I'll talk of him as a male.

Why? She doesn't have female vibes at all. People are cringe to think that. Same with Zunesha.

Imu refused to answer Cobra's inquiry about her name, and was angry with Lili as if she knew her personally. I may be wrong, but it looks like a hint that Imu is immortal, and has ruled the WG herself ever since the void century. If this guess is true, then Imu knows the history first-hand and has no need of Laugh Tale. Even if I'm wrong, as ruler of the world, surely all information was passed down to her.
Yes, one of the Red Poneglyphs was easy to get, but the one in the tree on top of Zunesha, not so much... Nobody knew where it was unless the minks took them there, and that was only Roger and Luffy. The WG doesn't know where it is, and 3 Poneglyphs will get you nowhere.

Oh sure. I also believe Imu is immortal from Void Century. But that doesn't mean he knows everything that are at Poneglyphs.

And if it is so important for people to not know why they didn't took care of Ohara earlier? Or why they didn't collected all Poneglyphs?

Wano is a natural fortress. Fortresses are usually taken by seige. But Wano was self-sufficient before Kaido took over, so a seige would achieve nothing. Kaido took Wano because he can fly, and had assistance from within. The WG doesn't have an air force. The sea outside Wano is full of shipwrecks for a reason. The sea is stormy with wild currents, and no fleet can climb the waterfall. Even if they sent whatever it was that destroyed Lulusia, it could destroy Pluton as well, and the WG doesn't want it destroyed, it wants to posses it.
Now it is easier to attack Wano, I agree. And I suspect this is about to happen, or else Oda would have let Yamato board the Sunny.

Kaido took Wano because no one could stop him. Oden was out and Orochi already assumed as Shogun. Samurais from that time were weak if not Oden.

Let's not forget that WG has CP-9 agents that knows how to fly by kicking the air.

 

[Johnny B. Decent]

I don't think Imu has Uranus, but maybe some sort of inferior knockoff.

*pats self on the back*

 

[Herrera95]

*pats self on the back*

For Urabus but maybe not for inferior.

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

I don't think Imu has Uranus, but maybe some sort of inferior knockoff.

I think Imu has Uranus. Just that the fuel for Uranus aka "Mother Flame" as stated by Imu is not eternal.

Back in Egghead, Lilith said that she wishes for a eternal flame source.

 

[PortgasDMor]

It's so cool that Iva decided to join our conversation and speculate with us! :)

 

[Kiiro]

Shirahoshi has the power to control beadt that can destroy an island.

Momo has the power to control Zunesha who also can destroy an island as seen she can destroy all the walls of a huge island as Wano.

Uranus will also be a person. But is there a ship at Wano? Yeah, just as in Gyojin island there is also a ship yet Shirahoshi is the weapon that controls everthung. Uranus will also have the power to control a beast that will free a ship.

 

[Herrera95]

Shirahoshi has the power to control beadt that can destroy an island.

Momo has the power to control Zunesha who also can destroy an island as seen she can destroy all the walls of a huge island as Wano.

Uranus will also be a person. But is there a ship at Wano? Yeah, just as in Gyojin island there is also a ship yet Shirahoshi is the weapon that controls everthung. Uranus will also have the power to control a beast that will free a ship.

I was wondering if Zunesha was really the key to free Wano. But it is way different destroying some walls to destroying some island. I don't think Zunesha can destroy like Lulusia Kingdom was destroyed while I believe Pluton can do something similar.

But so far Momo and Zunesha are 0 related to Ancient Weapons. And Pluton is 0 related to a certain person controlling it or any beast involved.

We already know that what destroyed Lulusia was developed by Vegapunk. I'm betting it is a copy of Uranus and even stronger since Vegapunk is already upgrading Ancient Kingdom technology.

 

[PortgasDMor]

I was wondering if Zunesha was really the key to free Wano. But it is way different destroying some walls to destroying some island. I don't think Zunesha can destroy like Lulusia Kingdom was destroyed while I believe Pluton can do something similar.

It's not only about destroying Wano's walls. Someone or something has put them up there to begin with. Ancient Wano was not much higher than the outside sea level. Zunesha with his trunk can do both building and destroying.
The only other entities I can think of that are large and tall enough for the task are those huge shadows hiding in the fog of the Florian Triangle.
Hmm, that makes me think that both Zunesha and those entities are huge things hiding in a fog. Maybe there's a connection?

We already know that what destroyed Lulusia was developed by Vegapunk. I'm betting it is a copy of Uranus and even stronger since Vegapunk is already upgrading Ancient Kingdom technology.

I actually like this idea. At the end Wano arc, when Sukiyaki talked about Pluton, I came up with a theory about the ancient weapons and especially Uranus. But if Imu controls Uranus my theory doesn't hold. If it's a copy it still does, so thanks.

 

[X18999]

It's not only about destroying Wano's walls. Someone or something has put them up there to begin with. Ancient Wano was not much higher than the outside sea level. Zunesha with his trunk can do both building and destroying.
The only other entities I can think of that are large and tall enough for the task are those huge shadows hiding in the fog of the Florian Triangle.
Hmm, that makes me think that both Zunesha and those entities are huge things hiding in a fog. Maybe there's a connection?

I actually like this idea. At the end Wano arc, when Sukiyaki talked about Pluton, I came up with a theory about the ancient weapons and especially Uranus. But if Imu controls Uranus my theory doesn't hold. If it's a copy it still does, so thanks.

Those walls could have been built with Devil Fruits like the Island fruit or stone fruit.