Espada vs Captains

[Haoshoku]

When TAC becomes the voice of reason

Hitsugaya who is the weakest Captain has nothing to do here

Nope that’s Komamura.

Even though I’ve never thought of this matchup, I am convinced Toshiro could win. Why? Hyoten Hyakkasō .

Spoiler

Even though Grimmjow will pressure him off the bat, he has ways of not ending up dead via his ice clone, running away if necessary (yes, this is what he did against Halibel to begin with) his bankai wings also provide decent protection.
If he is able to initiate it, Hyoten Hyakkaso finishes Grimmjow off.
Not even released Halibel was able to break out of that until Wonderweiss arrived, though you could argue it wasn’t strong enough to freeze her to the bone.

Toshiro evidently grew since the SS arc, a month passed since Aizen’s depature and he went from being relative to Luppi to being able to hang with Halibel.
The thing with Toshiro is that if you give him any sort of window he can muster up strong enough finishing attacks. His bankai’s versatility and potency is what made him keep up with Halibel who was otherwise stronger in terms of raw stats without a doubt.
This is precisely why Grimmjow doesn’t low diff him, Halibel wasn’t able to finish Toshiro off either and his ability to prep attacks like Hyoten Hyakkaso on the fly is deadly if he was able to initiate it.

For Luppi, literally, was undamaged and would've killed him. The only thing Hitsugaya needed was time. [1 -> 2 -> 3]

With a far weaker attack than the Hyoten Hyakkasō at that.

 

[ZenZu]

When TAC becomes the voice of reason

Nope that’s Komamura.

Even though I’ve never thought of this matchup, I am convinced Toshiro could win. Why? Hyoten Hyakkasō .

Spoiler

Even though Grimmjow will pressure him off the bat, he has ways of not ending up dead via his ice clone, running away if necessary (yes, this is what he did against Halibel to begin with) his bankai wings also provide decent protection.
If he is able to initiate it, Hyoten Hyakkaso finishes Grimmjow off.
Not even released Halibel was able to break out of that until Wonderweiss arrived, though you could argue it wasn’t strong enough to freeze her to the bone.

Toshiro evidently grew since the SS arc, a month passed since Aizen’s depature and he went from being relative to Luppi to being able to hang with Halibel.
The thing with Toshiro is that if you give him any sort of window he can muster up strong enough finishing attacks. His bankai’s versatility and potency is what made him keep up with Halibel who was otherwise stronger in terms of raw stats without a doubt.
This is precisely why Grimmjow doesn’t low diff him, Halibel wasn’t able to finish Toshiro off either and his ability to prep attacks like Hyoten Hyakkaso on the fly is deadly if he was able to initiate it.



With a far weaker attack than the Hyoten Hyakkasō at that.

There is no window he's being given against someone far faster and stronger.

Like I said I don't know why Halibel fought the way she did but Halibel is not Grimmjow, she fights nothing like him. Hitsugaya will get overwhelmed.


Y'all are assuming Hitsugaya will even be able to have a chance to catch his breath, no one is disputing he has powerful attacks but he is far slower and weaker in every other way aside from his attacks that require time to build up.

Let's puts things into perspective. Bankai Ichigo >> Hitsugaya in speed.

Bankai + Hollow Ichigo is in another realm entirely. Grimmjow literally plays volleyball with Hitsugaya's body. He's not seeing the light of day.

This is in base btw. Full out Grimmjow would take Hitsugaya's head off before he can blink.

Two things here.

If Bleach is a pretty basic Shonen, then we should probably not get too analytical with the Espada rankings and assume each superior rank presents the Espada as, indeed, stronger. I know the DBs say it measures reiatsu but reiatsu is literally the amount of spirit energy that can manifest. Apart from maybe experience in the case of Nelliel and Nnoitra, it's a very good measuring stick.

You also make the assumption that Ichigo who fought Grimmjow was the same that battled Byakuya.
Early Hueco Mundo Ichigo couldn't do anything to base Ulquiorra.
Zommari barely bushed Byakuya to Bankai difficulty.

Considering Byakuya had to use all but 1 of his bankai's abilities in his fight against Ichigo, it's safe to say Byakuya > Grimmjow. That and Kubo repeatedly had Byakuya and Zaraki paralleled against each other at the tail end of the arc.



Agreed. The Zaraki that Ichigo fought was barely Mid Tier Captain Shikai level.



His portrayal against the Fraccion is when his power is limited to 1/4th of what it actually is. All VCs and Captains have the seal present on them, the moment it's removed he treats the Fraccion like children. For Luppi, literally, was undamaged and would've killed him. The only thing Hitsugaya needed was time. [1 -> 2 -> 3]

The weakest captain is Doggie. And then after him maybe Soi Fon. Hitsugaya's fairly strong.

Yeah—Toshiro couldn't beat someone whose stats should logically be a level above Ulquiorra's sans Segunda. It's insane that he could keep up with her at all, not be overwhelmed by her attacks. Besides, both their powers counteracted each other. It's not like either had an advantage.



Ichigo in the Soul Society arc was probably on par with Hitsugaya, if we discount his inner Hollow. He couldn't beat Byakuya but could push Byakuya to very high diff. I think Toshiro would do the same.

Makes no sense. Ichigo got exponentially stronger to fight a character weaker than the one he was giving trouble to with just his bankai? The same Bankai a base Grimmjow babyshaked and spit on? It seems like mental gymnastics to get around this basic logic to me.

I'm aware they were restricted against the fraccion. But dude was still using his bankai. Also I recall Renji saying they only managed to beat them so swiftly because of the element of surprise. A base Grimmjow would beat all of them put together in no time. The fact that Hitsugaya was losing to that scrub while using Bankai even given the fact that he had a quarter of his strength, is pretty terrible portrayal.

Also what makes you think Grimmjow needs to transform to beat Zommari anyways? He forced Byakuya to use Bankai doesn't mean he can do the same to Grimmjow. The guy one shotted an espada who was ranked above Zommari. That should give you an idea of how big the gap is portrayed to be. Zommari should be nothing to Grimmjow, let alone Ulquiorra.

 

[Haoshoku]

Like I said I don't know why Halibel fought the way she did but Halibel is not Grimmjow, she fights nothing like him. Hitsugaya will get overwhelmed.

Maybe Toshiro was that strong? I mean Halibel was going in for the kill at times and Toshiro got by with strategy and or using his ice to defend himself. If Toshiro wasn’t atleast as fast as Bankai Ichigo in reaction speed, he has no business fighting Halibel or any Espada ranked above 8 for that matter. Bankai Ichigo’s speed is trash for most base Espadas, yet Toshiro was able to hang with a released Halibel, remember the Resurrección is comparable to a bankai which means a 5-10 times increase in overall power, Toshiro was still able to keep up.

I think based off that, Toshiro can hang with Grimmjow and could finish him off with his more potent ice attacks if they connect. Though it could go either way imo. If they were fighting in a place void of a proper atmosphere, Grimmjow would win handily since it’d take considerably more time for Toshiro to come up with powerful enough attacks.

 

[ZenZu]

Maybe Toshiro was that strong? I mean Halibel was going in for the kill at times and Toshiro got by with strategy and or using his ice to defend himself. If Toshiro wasn’t atleast as fast as Bankai Ichigo in reaction speed, he has no business fighting Halibel or any Espada ranked above 8 for that matter. Bankai Ichigo’s speed is trash for most base Espadas, yet Toshiro was able to hang with a released Halibel, remember the Resurrección is comparable to a bankai which means a 5-10 times increase in overall power, Toshiro was still able to keep up.

I think based off that, Toshiro can hang with Grimmjow and could finish him off with his more potent ice attacks if they connect. Though it could go either way imo. If they were fighting in a place void of a proper atmosphere, Grimmjow would win handily since it’d take considerably more time for Toshiro to come up with powerful enough attacks.

I need to reread that fight. Only ever read it once because it was beyond lame. Through portrayal Grimmjow is out of Hitsugaya's league. Halibel vs Hitsugaya was a matchup thing from what I recall, and Hitsugaya had backup. I have no reason to place Hitsugaya anywhere near Hollow mask Ichigo just based off shonen progression alone.

Bankai Ichigo’s speed is trash for most base Espadas, yet Toshiro was able to hang with a released Halibel

It's not though. Unless you are calling Byakuya slow af and we saw how fast he was against Zommari. Grimmjow and Ulquiorra were just that fast to make it look like nothing. I'm not gonna gift Halibel those speeds because she has more reiatsu, we know Nnoitra isn't faster than Grimmjow.

 

[Zara]

I think Hitsugaya is being underestimated, he was shown to dodge Harribel's sword strike at point blank range. He's not as bad at close quarter combat as he's being being portrayed in this thread. I don't see how Grimmjow can overwhelm him.

Spoiler

As for who wins between the Captains and the Espada? Well that depends on Barragan, he's the biggest wildcard here by far. He was only defeated a technique that was only shown by Hachigen and Haichigen isn't here. If the Captains can find a solution to Resperia then they win, if they can't then they share the same fate as Soifon's arm. Every other Espada should be weaker than Shunsui/Ukitake/Unohana so they aren't much of a concern. It's just Barragan that is the huge question mark.