Character Discussion “Zoro trained for everything and will become WSS through his own strength” is completely false

Does Zoro being born with CoC ruin the notion of him becoming WSS solely through his hard work?


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Yamato tanked Sasaki's explosives in base because of the Ogre lineage. Kaido made a big deal talking about her strength and how she should not rely on others because she is an Ogre.

WB's supposed son is said to have young WB's physical strength. Roger's son was born with CoC and had PK potential.

Being born from a crazy family does not guarantee you will get the crazy genes, but does the kid who happens to get them, earn them in any way ?

It's all random chance that one has happened to be born with certain innate talent and potential, or unique traits from his parents. None of that is earned.
Because of her Oni lineage? Are you sure that she isn't just durable like most of the non fodder characters in OP? Don't act like 100% of Yamato's durability or 100% of Kaido's came from being an Oni.

Young's WB physical strength? Man I am yet to see him not being clowned. It doesn't even look like he couldn't beat Perospero let alone any YC3. CoC that didn't help him in any way during his 1v1s and PK potential my ass, mf was 20 and was barely YC3 with his strong df carrying his ass too much. Trash CoA and CoO.

It's not granted tho. Be born in Judge's family and you have a 100% change of getting modified and getting some sick pu with a fancy Raid Suit, be born in BM's for example and you are lucky if you manage to tickle Cracker let alone Katakuri.
 

Finalbeta

Science Nerd 🌌 🌍 🧬 ⚛️
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Remove ACoC from Zoro and he is still a major power house. Though I wonder how much being a Shimotsuki helped him but I bet not necessarily much. He still just a human, his grandeur was self earned.
 
You killed yourself by admiting that Luffy trained for CoC.
Lmmaaoo no.
We all knew he trained his CoC during timeskip.
You are the only one who don't know that.
You can train to use CoC.
Example use it consciously or select who will be affected by it.
CoC won't grow stronger because you train it.
For your CoC to be stronger you need to be stronger yourself.
Example Luffy couldn't K-O all fishmens on FI even if he trained his CoC on FI it won't be useful he will still be at 50k
If he grew stronger (from YC3 level to Admiral) his CoC will grew stronger then he could K-O more than 50k fishmen

You can train your CoC mastery but not the intensity of your CoC (for this you need to be stronger)
 
Because of her Oni lineage? Are you sure that she isn't just durable like most of the non fodder characters in OP? Don't act like 100% of Yamato's durability or 100% of Kaido's came from being an Oni.

Young's WB physical strength? Man I am yet to see him not being clowned. It doesn't even look like he couldn't beat Perospero let alone any YC3. CoC that didn't help him in any way during his 1v1s and PK potential my ass, mf was 20 and was barely YC3 with his strong df carrying his ass too much. Trash CoA and CoO.

It's not granted tho. Be born in Judge's family and you have a 100% change of getting modified and getting some sick pu with a fancy Raid Suit, be born in BM's for example and you are lucky if you manage to tickle Cracker let alone Katakuri.

Well be born in Judge's family and you can be Yonji that get's folded by base Sanji without modifications, or Sanji that defeats 1,3 + bil YC with modifications.

Why are you taking the stance that Yamato has no benefits from the fact that she's an Oni like Kaido ? Is that really something you believe in ?
 
Lmmaaoo no.
We all knew he trained his CoC during timeskip.
You are the only one who don't know that.
You can train to use CoC.
Example use it consciously or select who will be affected by it.
CoC won't grow stronger because you train it.
For your CoC to be stronger you need to be stronger yourself.
Example Luffy couldn't K-O all fishmens on FI even if he trained his CoC on FI it won't be useful he will still be at 50k
If he grew stronger (from YC3 level to Admiral) his CoC will grew stronger then he could K-O more than 50k fishmen

You can train your CoC mastery but not the intensity of your CoC (for this you need to be stronger)
My point was Zoro training to master it not Zoro training to make his ACoC stronger.
Post automatically merged:

Well be born in Judge's family and you can be Yonji that get's folded by base Sanji without modifications, or Sanji that defeats 1,3 + bil YC with modifications.

Why are you taking the stance that Yamato has no benefits from the fact that she's an Oni like Kaido ? Is that really something you believe in ?
A Yonji who is still stronger than 95% of the OP verse.

Maybe, do you have any proof that suggest that she got insane buffs from it? Since you probably don't then it's basically settled.
 
The problem is that Zoro will still train to master said CoC to use it properly when it's required. He won't be like Luffy who looks at Kaido's Ragnarok and starts punching everything without touching them.
My point was Zoro training to master it not Zoro training to make his ACoC stronger
AdCoC is related to CoC so Luffy being able to use AdCoC is normal as he already mastered his base CoC usage.
It's not random spam.
Hence why I said you skip things.
 
Sanji did work however on everything that will make this powerup enough to defeat someone like Queen. Without his work prior to this, he'd be the Yonji that get's demolished by a Sanji with no modifications, or worse.


Btw, is there any difference in how earned a "natural advantage" or "innate natural talent" is compared to the "unnatural advantage" ? Basically, being handed crazy genes because you were born in the right family vs being handed crazy genes because your family was able to modify them, did the child born with those earn either ?
But the bottom line is without Judge‘s experiments, Sanji dies to Queen. I can’t get behind that, not when there was the potential for the much stronger story of Sanji prevailing over Judge and his siblings using only what people like Zeff taught him. Even if his fire powers had been tied to his mother’s side, or even just make all the Vinsmokes of Lunarian descent and able to make fire, none of that would bother me. It’s specifically Sanji’s successes now relying on Judge’s extremely unethical experiments, coupled with how Judge then treated Sanji for being a failure, that rankles. This is a vindication of what Judge did.

We now actually have to say, “boy, it’s a good thing Sanji was experimented on by Judge”, which is nuts when that led to Sanji’s mothers death and his shit childhood.

It would be like it we were suddenly being told that Caeser’s experiments on the kids of Punk Hazard were a positive thing, just because Vegapunk (presumably) is going to stop them from dying because of it.

As for the natural advantage question, it’s the difference between someone being a naturally gifted runner and someone taking a ton of steroids to get to the same speed. Life isn’t fair, some people are born better than others, doesn’t mean mad science experiments on children is the way to combat that. There’s a reason no one likes Lance Armstrong anymore.
 
So from now on EOS Kuina < EOS Zoro case he was born with coc*, that have sence. She was right from the begining, just she was wrong about boobs, not boobs make man strongest but coc
:whitepress:
 
But the bottom line is without Judge‘s experiments, Sanji dies to Queen. I can’t get behind that, not when there was the potential for the much stronger story of Sanji prevailing over Judge and his siblings using only what people like Zeff taught him. Even if his fire powers had been tied to his mother’s side, or even just make all the Vinsmokes of Lunarian descent and able to make fire, none of that would bother me. It’s specifically Sanji’s successes now relying on Judge’s extremely unethical experiments, coupled with how Judge then treated Sanji for being a failure, that rankles. This is a vindication of what Judge did.

We now actually have to say, “boy, it’s a good thing Sanji was experimented on by Judge”, which is nuts when that led to Sanji’s mothers death and his shit childhood.

It would be like it we were suddenly being told that Caeser’s experiments on the kids of Punk Hazard were a positive thing, just because Vegapunk (presumably) is going to stop them from dying because of it.

Things are not that black and white. Bad things can lead to good outcomes, and good things can lead to bad outcomes.

There's plenty of Hero origin stories where they get experimented on by the Nazi or whatever, but they become a source for good. You're not going to go back then and vindicate the Nazi experiments done on them without their consent, just because those turned out to be helpful in certain situations or even life saving.

Btw, Sora was close with Reiju and she did not see Reiju as being turned into a monster, because she kept her emotions unlike her siblings. That's the aspect that makes them humans in Sora's mind, and what she died trying to save for them.

As for the natural advantage question, it’s the difference between someone being a naturally gifted runner and someone taking a ton of steroids to get to the same speed. Life isn’t fair, some people are born better than others, doesn’t mean mad science experiments on children is the way to combat that. There’s a reason no one likes Lance Armstrong anymore.
You're talking about this around the question i asked though. Is it "earned" in either case ?
 
You're talking about this around the question i asked though. Is it "earned" in either case ?
Was it not obvious what I was saying? Yes, Luffy, Zoro, even Usopp, they have all earned everything they’ve developed, regardless of who their families are. The same way I have absolutely no problems with anything Sanji did up until the RS, despite him also coming from a unique background of warmongers. I don’t think Judge had anything to do with Sanji beating Mr 2, I don’t care that Yasopp could also snipe Sugar, Ryuma didn’t make Zoro able to defeat Pica and Dragon didn’t give Luffy the power to beat Kaido. Complaining about that is like shouting at top athletes “If I had your DNA I could do that!” It’s dumb as fuck. Are people not meant to root for Luke Skywalker because his dad was also strong?

Whereas this has nothing to do with Sanji. It’s literally all Judge’s actions. It’s not even like Franky who at least experimented on himself, so we can say that a triumph of Franky’s robotics is also a triumph of Franky’s ability as a scientist.

Things are not that black and white. Bad things can lead to good outcomes, and good things can lead to bad outcomes.

There's plenty of Hero origin stories where they get experimented on by the Nazi or whatever, but they become a source for good. You're not going to go back then and vindicate the Nazi experiments done on them without their consent, just because those turned out to be helpful in certain situations or even life saving.

Btw, Sora was close with Reiju and she did not see Reiju as being turned into a monster, because she kept her emotions unlike her siblings. That's the aspect that makes them humans in Sora's mind, and what she died trying to save for them.
How many of those origin stories also had nearly twenty odd years of the hero fighting perfectly well without any Nazi bullshit?

Perhaps it would have been better if we learned about Germa all those years ago alongside Zeff and it had always played a part in Sanji’s story. But that isn’t the case. Here we had an absolutely great background, gave us the reason for Sanji not using his hands, some fun anger-based powerups then all of a sudden he had a second (much, much poorer origin) and is suddenly fighting like a Nazi power ranger.

And because we had all those years of Sanji not using Germa tech, when we come across his shitty father and his brothers all laughing at him, calling him a failure, I’m far more interested in seeing the hero prove them wrong using all those skills we saw him develop in the years before we ever knew he was a Vinsmoke.

Instead he’s been saved by them. Hoorah for Judge. Hero of the hour. We couldn’t even get the route of Sanji stealing the RS or trying to unlock his exoskeleton himself or somethinf that at least gives him some agency in all this. Instead he‘s given it by Niji while being, again, derided by him for being too weak.
 
Was it not obvious what I was saying? Yes, Luffy, Zoro, even Usopp, they have all earned everything they’ve developed, regardless of who their families are. The same way I have absolutely no problems with anything Sanji did up until the RS, despite him also coming from a unique background of warmongers. I don’t think Judge had anything to do with Sanji beating Mr 2, I don’t care that Yasopp could also snipe Sugar, Ryuma didn’t make Zoro able to defeat Pica and Dragon didn’t give Luffy the power to beat Kaido. Complaining about that is like shouting at top athletes “If I had your DNA I could do that!” It’s dumb as fuck. Are people not meant to root for Luke Skywalker because his dad was also strong?

Whereas this has nothing to do with Sanji. It’s literally all Judge’s actions. It’s not even like Franky who at least experimented on himself, so we can say that a triumph of Franky’s robotics is also a triumph of Franky’s ability as a scientist.
You are backtracking on what you said here

As for the natural advantage question, it’s the difference between someone being a naturally gifted runner and someone taking a ton of steroids to get to the same speed. Life isn’t fair, some people are born better than others, doesn’t mean mad science experiments on children is the way to combat that. There’s a reason no one likes Lance Armstrong anymore.

You basically admited that some things are not earned because some are "naturally gifted" and "life is not fair".

We were comparing "naturally gifted" with Judge rigging the game to also "gift" his children.

So either way, those added benefits are not earned. KAido doesn't earn his birth as an ogre. Big Mom doesn't earn her birth as a freak of nature. Jimbe did not earn being born as a fishman 10x stronger at base.


How many of those origin stories also had nearly twenty odd years of the hero fighting perfectly well without any Nazi bullshit?

Perhaps it would have been better if we learned about Germa all those years ago alongside Zeff and it had always played a part in Sanji’s story. But that isn’t the case. Here we had an absolutely great background, gave us the reason for Sanji not using his hands, some fun anger-based powerups then all of a sudden he had a second (much, much poorer origin) and is suddenly fighting like a Nazi power ranger.

I mean some do, but that doesn't even change anything about the argument i am making. Either way powers obtained under conditions that we are not meant to root for, can lead to outcomes that we are meant to root for and benefit the good guys.

Either way, it does not validate in any way the manner in which those people got experimented on or tries to enforce the notion that it's a good thing to do. Oda's not writting a story here where Sanji's going to become an advocate of child experimentation and it's benefits, that's a hilarious way to look at this.


And because we had all those years of Sanji not using Germa tech, when we come across his shitty father and his brothers all laughing at him, calling him a failure, I’m far more interested in seeing the hero prove them wrong using all those skills we saw him develop in the years before we ever knew he was a Vinsmoke.

Instead he’s been saved by them. Hoorah for Judge. Hero of the hour. We couldn’t even get the route of Sanji stealing the RS or trying to unlock his exoskeleton himself or somethinf that at least gives him some agency in all this. Instead he‘s given it by Niji while being, again, derided by him for being too weak.

But Sanji had the agency in this. None of this would have happened if Sanji was like his family. Judge and his family alongside all of Germa would have been destroyed. All of this is only possible because Sanji chose to act entirely unlike Germa, and follow Zeff's principles.


Now Sanji's getting the type of powers Judge gave to his supposed "perfect soldiers" children, and he's going to reach heights they can only dream of because of the life he has lived, and all of the choices he has made that has separated him from Germa.

The Sanji that becomes what Judge wanted of him is Yonji 2.0. Sanji beating Queen and stronger opponents in the future is only possible because he did not live his life the way his siblings did.

Sanji needs to continue to confront his Germa roots because his end game continues to be tied with Germa. He's the one that will change the Kingdom, and use it's resources to better the world instead, as he's going to do with his newfound powers.


We know that Judge is wrong. Judge died at Big Mom's Tea Party with everyone including his children laughing at him. This is Sanji dealing with his past, and changing things for the better.
 
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