General & Others Anyone who uses a sword is a swordsman. Yes, including Big Mom and Kizaru.

[ShinmenTakezo]

Pretty simple for me.

If character A fighting with a sword is stronger than character A fighting without a sword, character A is a swordsman. Doesn't matter what other supplements they use

Big Mom from what we've seen falls in this bracket. Can fight without Napoleon, but is stronger with. Her big transformation power up seems to be the mode she has with Prometheus as her hair/cape, Napoleon in her hand and Zeus as her noble steed.

Kizaru's the odd one who stands out. Clearly he is a very gifted swordsman- but he also went unscathed through Marineford without using his sword once. He's maybe the most versatile character we've seen in the series.

99% of people fighting with a sword are stronger than without.
Only those that have 0 skill and might have contradictory abilities do not fall under that.

 

[nik87]

Maybe Kizaru using a sword against a competent swordsman was the best way to go. At least in base. Who knows what his awakening is capable of. That's called versatility. A swordsman however would always resort to a sword, it's his main fighting style and most of his fighting power comes from it. If Mihawk is reduced to his fists, he would drop by a tier.

If Kizaru ends up fighting Zoro with a sword, what are we gonna think about all that versatility and yet sticking to a sword?
Is he nerfing himself by sticking to a sword?

So you do consider sanji, akainu, and jozu swordsman?

No, because so far they have not shown the ability to fight with a sword. When they do, I will consider them swordsmen.

 

[comrade]

If Kizaru ends up fighting Zoro with a sword, what are we gonna think about all that versatility and yet sticking to a sword?
Is he nerfing himself by sticking to a sword?

If he ends up as Zoro's opponent and fights him with a sword, yeah, then he is a swordsman. But I doubt their paths will cross.

 

[Garp the Fist]

99% of people fighting with a sword are stronger than without.
Only those that have 0 skill and might have contradictory abilities do not fall under that.

Yep. Only Kizaru and Big Mom (who's a bit iffy) stands out for me as people who aren't necessarily swordsmen. Your Law's, Fujitora's, Shanks etc all are. If Kaku counts, they count.

 

[ShinmenTakezo]

Yep. Only Kizaru and Big Mom (who's a bit iffy) stands out for me as people who aren't necessarily swordsmen. Your Law's, Fujitora's, Shanks etc all are. If Kaku counts, they count.

Big Mom and Kizaru are the same.

 

[comrade]

Your Law's,

I disagree with Law even more than with Big Mom & co. because his abilities are not related to swordsmanship at all. Big Mom at least can use powerful named attacks with her blade. Law only uses his sword for spatial hax. Without his room, he was being stalled by Doffy's clone. And Doffy pointed out that Law was trained with the sword equally to being trained in martial arts (Lao G) and in artillery (Gladius). But the cutting within his room has literally nothing to do with a sword. He might as well use any other blade. Apart from the fact that cutting inside his room is only one of many abilities (Gamma Knife, Scalpel, Injection Shot, Counter Shock, personality switching) that have nothing to do with swords.

 

[ShinmenTakezo]

I disagree with Law even more than with Big Mom & co. because his abilities are not related to swordsmanship at all. Big Mom at least can use powerful named attacks with her blade. Law only uses his sword for spatial hax. Without his room, he was being stalled by Doffy's clone. And Doffy pointed out that Law was trained with the sword equally to being trained in martial arts (Lao G) and in artillery (Gladius). But the cutting within his room has literally nothing to do with a sword. He might as well use any other blade. Apart from the fact that cutting inside his room is only one of many abilities (Gamma Knife, Scalpel, Injection Shot, Counter Shock, personality switching) that have nothing to do with swords.

Law was able to fight with a Vice Admiral in CQC with his sword.
While discussing what a swordsman is, we should also regard what consequences you derive from that definition.

 

[comrade]

Law was able to fight with a Vice Admiral in CQC with his sword.

While inside of his room, to make use of his hax.

First swing of his sword point blank and me misses Smoker [1] [2]
Then he cuts through Tashigi with his hax. Tries to attack her again but Smoker blocks [3]
Teleports away from Smokers attack, tries to strike again with his sword and gets blocked yet again [4]
After then clashing once with Smoker directly, he goes ahead and steals his heart.

I feel like Law has little competence in swordsmanship. He is mainly blocking, and when it comes to offence, he makes use of his room and just swings his sword without technique.

 

[ShinmenTakezo]

While inside of his room, to make use of his hax.

First swing of his sword point blank and me misses Smoker [1] [2]
Then he cuts through Tashigi with his hax. Tries to attack her again but Smoker blocks [3]
Teleports away from Smokers attack, tries to strike again with his sword and gets blocked yet again [4]
After then clashing once with Smoker directly, he goes ahead and steals his heart.

I feel like Law has little competence in swordsmanship. He is mainly blocking, and when it comes to offence, he makes use of his room and just swings his sword without technique.

And still was not overwhelmed by Smoker.
Why does blocking alone not count?

 

[Garp the Fist]

Big Mom and Kizaru are the same.

I wouldn't say so. Kizaru absolutely strolled through Marineford without going near his sword, and that included going up against Whitebeard a few times.

Big Mom's a lot quicker to bring out Napoleon. She's got a transformation that involves Napoleon being her main method of attack while Zeus is relegated to transport and Prometheus as a, uh, hairnet? Her best fest is the fight with Kaido, and she only used Napoleon for that.

I disagree with Law even more than with Big Mom & co. because his abilities are not related to swordsmanship at all. Big Mom at least can use powerful named attacks with her blade. Law only uses his sword for spatial hax. Without his room, he was being stalled by Doffy's clone. And Doffy pointed out that Law was trained with the sword equally to being trained in martial arts (Lao G) and in artillery (Gladius). But the cutting within his room has literally nothing to do with a sword. He might as well use any other blade. Apart from the fact that cutting inside his room is only one of many abilities (Gamma Knife, Scalpel, Injection Shot, Counter Shock, personality switching) that have nothing to do with swords.

The best feat Law has without a sword is beating a Yeti Cool Bro with Countershock, a move that Vergo shrugged off and a radiated Doffy managed to survive. Gamma Knife only worked because Doflamingo thought he was dead, and even then, it's a great big radioactive blade that he used.
All this "yeah, he could use another weapon" stuff is pointless. He doesn't. He uses a sword. It's no different from saying Zoro would be able to fight as well with three scythes cause he used one against Killer.

Injection Shot and the personality switching is done with his sword as well, btw.

 

[OEKaneki]

Big Mom from what we've seen falls in this bracket. Can fight without Napoleon, but is stronger with. Her big transformation power up seems to be the mode she has with Prometheus as her hair/cape, Napoleon in her hand and Zeus as her noble steed.

She nukes things with a fireball and a thunder cloud. We haven’t seen anything that indicates she’s stronger with Napoleon than the other two.

 

[comrade]

And still was not overwhelmed by Smoker.
Why does blocking alone not count?

I just mean that his skill with the sword is vastly dwarfed by his DF ability, unlike most other blade users. Like Big Mom is very powerful with the blade as well. While Law, solely with his sword, is terribly weak.

 

[comrade]

The best feat Law has without a sword is beating a Yeti Cool Bro with Countershock, a move that Vergo shrugged off and a radiated Doffy managed to survive. Gamma Knife only worked because Doflamingo thought he was dead, and even then, it's a great big radioactive blade that he used.
All this "yeah, he could use another weapon" stuff is pointless. He doesn't. He uses a sword. It's no different from saying Zoro would be able to fight as well with three scythes cause he used one against Killer.

It's not the same. Using Katanas would vastly increase Zoro's attack power. But whether Law swings an old rusty knife or a katana, doesn't matter at all. Because the weapon only draws the trajectory, but the cut happens due to his room.

 

[Garp the Fist]

She nukes things with a fireball and a thunder cloud. We haven’t seen anything that indicates she’s stronger with Napoleon than the other two.

Apart from her hours long fight against Kaido with a sword that's her best feat by far. That's way more impressive than beating up the Vinsmokes with Z and P

 

[ShinmenTakezo]

I wouldn't say so. Kizaru absolutely strolled through Marineford without going near his sword, and that included going up against Whitebeard a few times.

Big Mom's a lot quicker to bring out Napoleon. She's got a transformation that involves Napoleon being her main method of attack while Zeus is relegated to transport and Prometheus as a, uh, hairnet? Her best fest is the fight with Kaido, and she only used Napoleon for that.


The best feat Law has without a sword is beating a Yeti Cool Bro with Countershock, a move that Vergo shrugged off and a radiated Doffy managed to survive. Gamma Knife only worked because Doflamingo thought he was dead, and even then, it's a great big radioactive blade that he used.
All this "yeah, he could use another weapon" stuff is pointless. He doesn't. He uses a sword. It's no different from saying Zoro would be able to fight as well with three scythes cause he used one against Killer.

Injection Shot and the personality switching is done with his sword as well, btw.

Which means he did not need it as defense like he did with Rayleigh.
How does that contradict him being a swordsman? Does he constantly need to use it for that to be the case?

 

[ShinmenTakezo]

I just mean that his skill with the sword is vastly dwarfed by his DF ability, unlike most other blade users. Like Big Mom is very powerful with the blade as well. While Law, solely with his sword, is terribly weak.

It just means his other abilities, like you said, are significantly ahead of his swordsmanship. Like, the Op Op puts him at high tier spectrum, without it he would be mid tier probably.
But the sword still has purpose besides his DF, and he can fight at mid tier level with it, so why would he not be a swordsman?

I think we not only differ in how we classify a swordsman but also why the consequence of someone being a swordsman is regarding the comparison with others.

 

[comrade]

But the sword still has purpose besides his DF, and he can fight at mid tier level with it, so why would he not be a swordsman?

Well, I didn't say Law cannot be considered a swordsman, but replying to Garp the Fist, who said that only Kizaru and Big Mom stand out, saying that Law would stand out even more.

 

[ShinmenTakezo]

Well, I didn't say Law cannot be considered a swordsman, but replying to Garp the Fist, who said that only Kizaru and Big Mom stand out, saying that Law would stand out even more.

Ah ok, my mistake.

 

[Crooc]

I agree that there's no such thing as a true swordsman and whatnot, every character that uses a sword can be qualified as a swordsman. However, it seems to me that Oda, intentionally or unintentionally, has created SOME distinction between swordsmen like Fujitora and Law and swordsmen like Mihawk and Zoro.

 

[OEKaneki]

Apart from her hours long fight against Kaido with a sword that's her best feat by far. That's way more impressive than beating up the Vinsmokes with Z and P

They weren’t doing anything to each other though. It was just a spar. By all indications, they weren’t trying to kill each other, given that there was zero damage sustained by either one of them. I wouldn’t exactly count that as impressive because it’s expected that they both be able to do that, given they’re two of the strongest people in the world. If it was someone perceived as weaker going against one of them in a fight that was serious, then maybe, but they’re at a similar level.