Future Events Baited by Spoilers: Karyuudon vs ZKK

Which of the following do you believe are true?

  • Zoro will kill Kaido

  • Zoro is out of all remaining arc fights for good

  • Zoro has samurai heritage

  • Zoro does not have samurai heritage, but will be appointed as an honorary samurai

  • Zoro is a descendant of Ryuma

  • Zoro is a descendant of Ushimaru

  • King will stay standing for another chapter

  • Kaido was right, the samurai are hopeless


Results are only viewable after voting.
#1
So 1035 is out and once again, people jumped the gun on the spoilers, believing the provider that said Zoro's finisher looked almost exactly like Ryuma's in Monster. Well, no. That was bait. I'm here to examine some of the dragonslaying material we've received, both in and out of canon and it will become painfully obvious that Zoro vs Karyuudon is not the legend we were promised.

First, let's look at the comparison between Zoro, Ryuuma and Karyuudon.


Zoro and Ryuma very clearly decapitated the dragon, with the emphasis on the head flying away from the body, accompanied by a spray of blood effect.

This is clearly not a decapitation. It's a bisection. Zoro obviously cut the dragon lengthwise.

The spoiler provider also baited the community by stating that Zoro's finisher was a three sword version of Hiryuu Kaen, the attack that Kaido dodged earlier. That... is a massive reach. We don't actually know what Hiryuu Kaen looks like post timeskip, and Hiryuu Kaen is specifically a one-sword technique so a three-sword version of it would be... something else entirely. Not the same technique at all.

Members @Cinera and @KiriNigiri have done a better job of explaining this, so I'll only touch on this matter briefly, but dragons are seen as a symbol of established authority, a la the Celestial Dragons. Zoro is represented by a Tiger, symbolising a young upstart trying to take the throne from the old guard and rebuild the world anew. This idea was rehashed in the chapter here:



We were promised a new dragonslaying legend, with much emphasis placed on replicating Ryuuma's dragonslaying legend from long ago:
One Piece Magazine specifically depicts the decapitation from Punk Hazard. Which makes sense, seeing as that scene was the first homage to Ryuuma. I've already shown how Zoro cutting Karyuudon was not a decapitation, so where is the second Ryuuma homage, in which Zoro beheads an Eastern dragon instead?

For those of you who do not know, or simply enjoy lumping all Zoro fans together as a hive mind, I have been historically conservative with predicting ZKK. In Cinera's thread, I gave it a 60% chance, and I still stand by my rating. I have doubts about Oda having Zoro kill a person on-panel in such a gruesome way, but it's also very hard to refute the mountain of evidence that points to Kaido's death. I don't assign ZKK the highest probability of happening, but I think 1035 is far too premature to dismiss the theory either, particularly since we still have this massive plot point left unresolved:

We need Kaido to acknowledge that there still exists a monster samurai on par with Oden. This is a massive, massive plot point and the culmination of the samurai faction's arc, for Kaido to admit that despite his best efforts to stifle and disarm them, that great samurai will continue to rise. Kaido did not witness Zoro's fight with King and pretty much underestimated him all the way until he unleashed Ashura for the first time. Yet Kaido once again turned his attention away from Zoro, and did not see a link between Zoro and the way of the samurai he claims to love. With the Shimotsuki plotline still hanging, there is still time for Zoro to discover that he is, indeed a samurai by blood and re-challenge Kaido to prove him wrong. If Zoro does not prove him wrong, then Kaido, the villain, would be right in his assessment of the samurai. And we can't have that.

I will leave you with the last panel, where Zoro's finisher is called Jingoku, a word that evokes the samurai. Knowing Oda, this is almost certainly pointing towards Zoro formally acknowledging himself as one of them. Now where to from here? To which character would it be most relevant that Zoro considers himself a samurai? That's for you to decide.


@Afroking
@Aknolagon
@Artorias
@bblue
@Benn beck
@bennbeckman
@BidaPowersTV
@Bittersteel
@Bogard
@Chocolatemuppet
@Buggy D Clown
@Bullet
@Camie
@Celestial D. Dragon
@Chaves
@Cinera
@comrade
@Constantine
@Crooc
@Cross_Marian
@Cyrus the Cactus
@Dark Hound
@Dark Knight Sanji
@DarkWitch
@Dr. Spook
@Dragoban
@Elcadar
@Emperor
@Enma
@Fenaker
@Finalbeta
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung
@Flower
@Fn Lucci
@Foxy Bunny
@Fukki
@Garp the Fist
@Garps tekkai
@Gauntlet
@Gensui Sazid
@Geo
@Gol D. Roger
@Gon’s Missing Arm
@Greenbeard
@Grumpy Zoro
@Guan Yu
@Guymieux
@h_zorothegoat
@HA001
@HAJIKATA
@Hanzo hattori
@Haoku
@HeroesNZ
@Herrera95
@Himura
@I'mTired
@Ice devil slayer
@IceWitch
@Im_not_Osama_bin_laden
@Jack
@Jackteo
@Jew D. Boy
@JioFreed
@K!NG HARA$H!MA
@KageyamaShoyo
@Kejon
@KenshiraSonata
@KINGKONGGUN15
@KiriNigiri
@Light D Lamperouge
@Lucas
@Luffy bin Dragon
@Luffy is the mc
@LuffyMazino
@Luslec
@LuthonTheDragDown
@Marco
@Marimo_420
@marimoheado
@MarineHQ62
@MasterD
@matt245
@Midnight Delight
@Mikail
@Monet
@Monkey D Theories
@Monster trio
@MonsterZoro
@Mr. Anderson
@Murilo
@Nidai_Kitetsu
@nik87
@Oblivion
@OmegaPsyche
@Orojackson Refugee
@Parker
@Patryipe
@PerfectHie
@PizzaBread
@playa4321
@princeley
@Punpun
@queen
@RayanOO
@Reborn
@Reddot4
@rednose
@ReggieZoldyck21
@rerere
@Rivaille
@Robin swan
@Roronoa-sama
@Rosella.Fiamingo
@Rukusho
@RyumaZoro
@RZ.119
@Sade
@SaintBellkin
@Sakazuki-Singh
@Sakura no Hiluluk
@Salah WG
@Sanji D Cook
@Sentinel
@Seth
@Shadowlord123
@ShadowStyle369
@ShadyOjiro
@SHIHI
@Shiroyru
@ShishioIsBack
@silverfire
@SinOfGreed
@Skiddo
@SmokedOut
@Soleus
@solis
@spawn
@Starbound Beast D. Draig
@stormylife
@style
@Sunita
@Sword God Ryuma
@T.D.A
@Tamerani
@Tenshi No Konan
@ten yaksha blother
@Thabeast
@TheKnightOfTheSea
@Tobi
@Topi Jerami
@Trafalgar_D_Law
@Usopp Haoshoku Haki
@Van
@Veljko
@Vonal
@WillOfMyD
@Winsmoke Sanji
@Xione
@yj
@Yo Tan Wa
@yorosenpai
@yunzabit heights
@Zenos7
@ZenZu
@Zoro
@Zoro D Goat
@zorojurou
@ZoroSlaysDragonTuna
@Zowo
 
Last edited:
#2
So 1035 is out and once again, people jumped the gun on the spoilers, believing the provider that said Zoro's finisher looked almost exactly like Ryuma's in Monster. Well, no. That was bait. I'm here to examine some of the dragonslaying material we've received, both in and out of canon and it will become painfully obvious that Zoro vs Karyuudon is not the legend we were promised.

First, let's look at the comparison between Zoro, Ryuuma and Karyuudon.


Zoro and Ryuma very clearly decapitated the dragon, with the emphasis on the head flying away from the body, accompanied by a spray of blood effect.

This is clearly not a decapitation. It's a bisection. Zoro obviously cut the dragon lengthwise.

The spoiler provider also baited the community by stating that Zoro's finisher was a three sword version of Hiryuu Kaen, the attack that Kaido dodged earlier. That... is a massive reach. We don't actually know what Hiryuu Kaen looks like post timeskip, and Hiryuu Kaen is specifically a one-sword technique so a three-sword version of it would be... something else entirely. Not the same technique at all.

Members @Cinera and @KiriNigiri have done a better job of explaining this, so I'll only touch on this matter briefly, but dragons are seen as a symbol of established authority, a la the Celestial Dragons. Zoro is represented by a Tiger, symbolising a young upstart trying to take the throne from the old guard and rebuild the world anew. This idea was rehashed in the chapter here:



We were promised a new dragonslaying legend, with much emphasis placed on replicating Ryuuma's dragonslaying legend from long ago:
One Piece Magazine specifically depicts he decapitation from Punk Hazard. Which makes sense, seeing as that scene was the first homage to Ryuuma. I've already shown how Zoro cutting Karyuudon was not a decapitation, so where is the second Ryuuma homage, in which Zoro beheads an Eastern dragon instead?

For those of you who do not know, or simply enjoy lumping all Zoro fans together as a hive mind, I have been historically conservative with predicting ZKK. In Cinera's thread, I gave it a 60% chance, and I still stand by my rating. I have doubts about Oda having Zoro kill a person on-panel in such a gruesome way, but it's also very hard to refute the mountain of evidence that points to Kaido's death. I don't assigning ZKK the highest probability of happening, but I think 1035 is far too premature to dismiss the theory either, particularly since we still have this massive plot point left unresolved:

We need Kaido to acknowledge that there still exists a monster samurai on par with Oden. This is a massive, massive plot point and the culmination of the samurai faction's arc, for Kaido to admit that despite his best efforts to stifle and disarm them, that great samurai will continue to rise. Kaido did not witness Zoro's fight with King and pretty much underestimated him all the way until he unleashed Ashura for the first time. Yet Kaido once again turned his attention away from Zoro, and did not see a link between Zoro and the way of the samurai he claims to love. With the Shimotsuki plotline still hanging, there is still time for Zoro to discover that he is, indeed a samurai by blood and re-challenge Kaido to prove him wrong. If Zoro does not prove him wrong, then Kaido, the villain, would be right in his assessment of the samurai. And we can't have that.

I will leave you with the last panel, where Zoro's finisher is called Jingoku, a word that evokes the samurai. Knowing Oda, this is almost certainly pointing towards Zoro formally acknowledging himself as one of them. Now where to from here? To which character would it be most relevant that Zoro considers himself a samurai? That's for you to decide.


@Afroking
@Aknolagon
@Artorias
@bblue
@Benn beck
@bennbeckman
@BidaPowersTV
@Bittersteel
@Bogard
@Chocolatemuppet
@Buggy D Clown
@Bullet
@Camie
@Celestial D. Dragon
@Chaves
@Cinera
@comrade
@Constantine
@Crooc
@Cross_Marian
@Cyrus the Cactus
@Dark Hound
@Dark Knight Sanji
@DarkWitch
@Dr. Spook
@Dragoban
@Elcadar
@Emperor
@Enma
@Fenaker
@Finalbeta
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung
@Flower
@Fn Lucci
@Foxy Bunny
@Fukki
@Garp the Fist
@Garps tekkai
@Gauntlet
@Gensui Sazid
@Geo
@Gol D. Roger
@Gon’s Missing Arm
@Greenbeard
@Grumpy Zoro
@Guan Yu
@Guymieux
@h_zorothegoat
@HA001
@HAJIKATA
@Hanzo hattori
@Haoku
@HeroesNZ
@Herrera95
@Himura
@I'mTired
@Ice devil slayer
@IceWitch
@Im_not_Osama_bin_laden
@Jack
@Jackteo
@Jew D. Boy
@JioFreed
@K!NG HARA$H!MA
@KageyamaShoyo
@Kejon
@KenshiraSonata
@KINGKONGGUN15
@KiriNigiri
@Light D Lamperouge
@Lucas
@Luffy bin Dragon
@Luffy is the mc
@LuffyMazino
@Luslec
@LuthonTheDragDown
@Marco
@Marimo_420
@marimoheado
@MarineHQ62
@MasterD
@matt245
@Midnight Delight
@Mikail
@Monet
@Monkey D Theories
@Monster trio
@MonsterZoro
@Mr. Anderson
@Murilo
@Nidai_Kitetsu
@nik87
@Oblivion
@OmegaPsyche
@Orojackson Refugee
@Parker
@Patryipe
@PerfectHie
@PizzaBread
@playa4321
@princeley
@Punpun
@queen
@RayanOO
@Reborn
@Reddot4
@rednose
@ReggieZoldyck21
@rerere
@Rivaille
@Robin swan
@Roronoa-sama
@Rosella.Fiamingo
@Rukusho
@RyumaZoro
@RZ.119
@Sade
@SaintBellkin
@Sakazuki-Singh
@Sakura no Hiluluk
@Salah WG
@Sanji D Cook
@Sentinel
@Seth
@Shadowlord123
@ShadowStyle369
@ShadyOjiro
@SHIHI
@Shiroyru
@ShishioIsBack
@silverfire
@SinOfGreed
@Skiddo
@SmokedOut
@Soleus
@solis
@spawn
@Starbound Beast D. Draig
@stormylife
@style
@Sunita
@Sword God Ryuma
@T.D.A
@Tamerani
@Tenshi No Konan
@ten yaksha blother
@Thabeast
@TheKnightOfTheSea
@Tobi
@Topi Jerami
@Trafalgar_D_Law
@Usopp Haoshoku Haki
@Van
@Veljko
@Vonal
@WillOfMyD
@Winsmoke Sanji
@Xione
@yj
@Yo Tan Wa
@yorosenpai
@yunzabit heights
@Zenos7
@ZenZu
@Zoro
@Zoro D Goat
@zorojurou
@ZoroSlaysDragonTuna
@Zowo
The actual impact of the attack was more like odens togen totska than ryumas.
 
#4
So 1035 is out and once again, people jumped the gun on the spoilers, believing the provider that said Zoro's finisher looked almost exactly like Ryuma's in Monster. Well, no. That was bait. I'm here to examine some of the dragonslaying material we've received, both in and out of canon and it will become painfully obvious that Zoro vs Karyuudon is not the legend we were promised.

First, let's look at the comparison between Zoro, Ryuuma and Karyuudon.


Zoro and Ryuma very clearly decapitated the dragon, with the emphasis on the head flying away from the body, accompanied by a spray of blood effect.

This is clearly not a decapitation. It's a bisection. Zoro obviously cut the dragon lengthwise.

The spoiler provider also baited the community by stating that Zoro's finisher was a three sword version of Hiryuu Kaen, the attack that Kaido dodged earlier. That... is a massive reach. We don't actually know what Hiryuu Kaen looks like post timeskip, and Hiryuu Kaen is specifically a one-sword technique so a three-sword version of it would be... something else entirely. Not the same technique at all.

Members @Cinera and @KiriNigiri have done a better job of explaining this, so I'll only touch on this matter briefly, but dragons are seen as a symbol of established authority, a la the Celestial Dragons. Zoro is represented by a Tiger, symbolising a young upstart trying to take the throne from the old guard and rebuild the world anew. This idea was rehashed in the chapter here:



We were promised a new dragonslaying legend, with much emphasis placed on replicating Ryuuma's dragonslaying legend from long ago:
One Piece Magazine specifically depicts he decapitation from Punk Hazard. Which makes sense, seeing as that scene was the first homage to Ryuuma. I've already shown how Zoro cutting Karyuudon was not a decapitation, so where is the second Ryuuma homage, in which Zoro beheads an Eastern dragon instead?

For those of you who do not know, or simply enjoy lumping all Zoro fans together as a hive mind, I have been historically conservative with predicting ZKK. In Cinera's thread, I gave it a 60% chance, and I still stand by my rating. I have doubts about Oda having Zoro kill a person on-panel in such a gruesome way, but it's also very hard to refute the mountain of evidence that points to Kaido's death. I don't assigning ZKK the highest probability of happening, but I think 1035 is far too premature to dismiss the theory either, particularly since we still have this massive plot point left unresolved:

We need Kaido to acknowledge that there still exists a monster samurai on par with Oden. This is a massive, massive plot point and the culmination of the samurai faction's arc, for Kaido to admit that despite his best efforts to stifle and disarm them, that great samurai will continue to rise. Kaido did not witness Zoro's fight with King and pretty much underestimated him all the way until he unleashed Ashura for the first time. Yet Kaido once again turned his attention away from Zoro, and did not see a link between Zoro and the way of the samurai he claims to love. With the Shimotsuki plotline still hanging, there is still time for Zoro to discover that he is, indeed a samurai by blood and re-challenge Kaido to prove him wrong. If Zoro does not prove him wrong, then Kaido, the villain, would be right in his assessment of the samurai. And we can't have that.

I will leave you with the last panel, where Zoro's finisher is called Jingoku, a word that evokes the samurai. Knowing Oda, this is almost certainly pointing towards Zoro formally acknowledging himself as one of them. Now where to from here? To which character would it be most relevant that Zoro considers himself a samurai? That's for you to decide.


@Afroking
@Aknolagon
@Artorias
@bblue
@Benn beck
@bennbeckman
@BidaPowersTV
@Bittersteel
@Bogard
@Chocolatemuppet
@Buggy D Clown
@Bullet
@Camie
@Celestial D. Dragon
@Chaves
@Cinera
@comrade
@Constantine
@Crooc
@Cross_Marian
@Cyrus the Cactus
@Dark Hound
@Dark Knight Sanji
@DarkWitch
@Dr. Spook
@Dragoban
@Elcadar
@Emperor
@Enma
@Fenaker
@Finalbeta
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung
@Flower
@Fn Lucci
@Foxy Bunny
@Fukki
@Garp the Fist
@Garps tekkai
@Gauntlet
@Gensui Sazid
@Geo
@Gol D. Roger
@Gon’s Missing Arm
@Greenbeard
@Grumpy Zoro
@Guan Yu
@Guymieux
@h_zorothegoat
@HA001
@HAJIKATA
@Hanzo hattori
@Haoku
@HeroesNZ
@Herrera95
@Himura
@I'mTired
@Ice devil slayer
@IceWitch
@Im_not_Osama_bin_laden
@Jack
@Jackteo
@Jew D. Boy
@JioFreed
@K!NG HARA$H!MA
@KageyamaShoyo
@Kejon
@KenshiraSonata
@KINGKONGGUN15
@KiriNigiri
@Light D Lamperouge
@Lucas
@Luffy bin Dragon
@Luffy is the mc
@LuffyMazino
@Luslec
@LuthonTheDragDown
@Marco
@Marimo_420
@marimoheado
@MarineHQ62
@MasterD
@matt245
@Midnight Delight
@Mikail
@Monet
@Monkey D Theories
@Monster trio
@MonsterZoro
@Mr. Anderson
@Murilo
@Nidai_Kitetsu
@nik87
@Oblivion
@OmegaPsyche
@Orojackson Refugee
@Parker
@Patryipe
@PerfectHie
@PizzaBread
@playa4321
@princeley
@Punpun
@queen
@RayanOO
@Reborn
@Reddot4
@rednose
@ReggieZoldyck21
@rerere
@Rivaille
@Robin swan
@Roronoa-sama
@Rosella.Fiamingo
@Rukusho
@RyumaZoro
@RZ.119
@Sade
@SaintBellkin
@Sakazuki-Singh
@Sakura no Hiluluk
@Salah WG
@Sanji D Cook
@Sentinel
@Seth
@Shadowlord123
@ShadowStyle369
@ShadyOjiro
@SHIHI
@Shiroyru
@ShishioIsBack
@silverfire
@SinOfGreed
@Skiddo
@SmokedOut
@Soleus
@solis
@spawn
@Starbound Beast D. Draig
@stormylife
@style
@Sunita
@Sword God Ryuma
@T.D.A
@Tamerani
@Tenshi No Konan
@ten yaksha blother
@Thabeast
@TheKnightOfTheSea
@Tobi
@Topi Jerami
@Trafalgar_D_Law
@Usopp Haoshoku Haki
@Van
@Veljko
@Vonal
@WillOfMyD
@Winsmoke Sanji
@Xione
@yj
@Yo Tan Wa
@yorosenpai
@yunzabit heights
@Zenos7
@ZenZu
@Zoro
@Zoro D Goat
@zorojurou
@ZoroSlaysDragonTuna
@Zowo
DenDen is factual as always
Post automatically merged:

ZKK is dead. It’s okay Zoro fans, it’s time to come back to reality now.
:suresure:
 
#5
So 1035 is out and once again, people jumped the gun on the spoilers, believing the provider that said Zoro's finisher looked almost exactly like Ryuma's in Monster. Well, no. That was bait. I'm here to examine some of the dragonslaying material we've received, both in and out of canon and it will become painfully obvious that Zoro vs Karyuudon is not the legend we were promised.

First, let's look at the comparison between Zoro, Ryuuma and Karyuudon.


Zoro and Ryuma very clearly decapitated the dragon, with the emphasis on the head flying away from the body, accompanied by a spray of blood effect.

This is clearly not a decapitation. It's a bisection. Zoro obviously cut the dragon lengthwise.

The spoiler provider also baited the community by stating that Zoro's finisher was a three sword version of Hiryuu Kaen, the attack that Kaido dodged earlier. That... is a massive reach. We don't actually know what Hiryuu Kaen looks like post timeskip, and Hiryuu Kaen is specifically a one-sword technique so a three-sword version of it would be... something else entirely. Not the same technique at all.

Members @Cinera and @KiriNigiri have done a better job of explaining this, so I'll only touch on this matter briefly, but dragons are seen as a symbol of established authority, a la the Celestial Dragons. Zoro is represented by a Tiger, symbolising a young upstart trying to take the throne from the old guard and rebuild the world anew. This idea was rehashed in the chapter here:



We were promised a new dragonslaying legend, with much emphasis placed on replicating Ryuuma's dragonslaying legend from long ago:
One Piece Magazine specifically depicts he decapitation from Punk Hazard. Which makes sense, seeing as that scene was the first homage to Ryuuma. I've already shown how Zoro cutting Karyuudon was not a decapitation, so where is the second Ryuuma homage, in which Zoro beheads an Eastern dragon instead?

For those of you who do not know, or simply enjoy lumping all Zoro fans together as a hive mind, I have been historically conservative with predicting ZKK. In Cinera's thread, I gave it a 60% chance, and I still stand by my rating. I have doubts about Oda having Zoro kill a person on-panel in such a gruesome way, but it's also very hard to refute the mountain of evidence that points to Kaido's death. I don't assigning ZKK the highest probability of happening, but I think 1035 is far too premature to dismiss the theory either, particularly since we still have this massive plot point left unresolved:

We need Kaido to acknowledge that there still exists a monster samurai on par with Oden. This is a massive, massive plot point and the culmination of the samurai faction's arc, for Kaido to admit that despite his best efforts to stifle and disarm them, that great samurai will continue to rise. Kaido did not witness Zoro's fight with King and pretty much underestimated him all the way until he unleashed Ashura for the first time. Yet Kaido once again turned his attention away from Zoro, and did not see a link between Zoro and the way of the samurai he claims to love. With the Shimotsuki plotline still hanging, there is still time for Zoro to discover that he is, indeed a samurai by blood and re-challenge Kaido to prove him wrong. If Zoro does not prove him wrong, then Kaido, the villain, would be right in his assessment of the samurai. And we can't have that.

I will leave you with the last panel, where Zoro's finisher is called Jingoku, a word that evokes the samurai. Knowing Oda, this is almost certainly pointing towards Zoro formally acknowledging himself as one of them. Now where to from here? To which character would it be most relevant that Zoro considers himself a samurai? That's for you to decide.


@Afroking
@Aknolagon
@Artorias
@bblue
@Benn beck
@bennbeckman
@BidaPowersTV
@Bittersteel
@Bogard
@Chocolatemuppet
@Buggy D Clown
@Bullet
@Camie
@Celestial D. Dragon
@Chaves
@Cinera
@comrade
@Constantine
@Crooc
@Cross_Marian
@Cyrus the Cactus
@Dark Hound
@Dark Knight Sanji
@DarkWitch
@Dr. Spook
@Dragoban
@Elcadar
@Emperor
@Enma
@Fenaker
@Finalbeta
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung
@Flower
@Fn Lucci
@Foxy Bunny
@Fukki
@Garp the Fist
@Garps tekkai
@Gauntlet
@Gensui Sazid
@Geo
@Gol D. Roger
@Gon’s Missing Arm
@Greenbeard
@Grumpy Zoro
@Guan Yu
@Guymieux
@h_zorothegoat
@HA001
@HAJIKATA
@Hanzo hattori
@Haoku
@HeroesNZ
@Herrera95
@Himura
@I'mTired
@Ice devil slayer
@IceWitch
@Im_not_Osama_bin_laden
@Jack
@Jackteo
@Jew D. Boy
@JioFreed
@K!NG HARA$H!MA
@KageyamaShoyo
@Kejon
@KenshiraSonata
@KINGKONGGUN15
@KiriNigiri
@Light D Lamperouge
@Lucas
@Luffy bin Dragon
@Luffy is the mc
@LuffyMazino
@Luslec
@LuthonTheDragDown
@Marco
@Marimo_420
@marimoheado
@MarineHQ62
@MasterD
@matt245
@Midnight Delight
@Mikail
@Monet
@Monkey D Theories
@Monster trio
@MonsterZoro
@Mr. Anderson
@Murilo
@Nidai_Kitetsu
@nik87
@Oblivion
@OmegaPsyche
@Orojackson Refugee
@Parker
@Patryipe
@PerfectHie
@PizzaBread
@playa4321
@princeley
@Punpun
@queen
@RayanOO
@Reborn
@Reddot4
@rednose
@ReggieZoldyck21
@rerere
@Rivaille
@Robin swan
@Roronoa-sama
@Rosella.Fiamingo
@Rukusho
@RyumaZoro
@RZ.119
@Sade
@SaintBellkin
@Sakazuki-Singh
@Sakura no Hiluluk
@Salah WG
@Sanji D Cook
@Sentinel
@Seth
@Shadowlord123
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thank you @Den_Den_Mushi this is perfect for all that are going to bet their account :sadgrin::yearight::
https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/zkk-or-not-zkk-bet-your-account.20062/
 

Cinera

𝐀𝐬𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐌𝐚𝐬𝐜𝐡𝐞𝐧𝐧𝐲 𝐏𝐞𝐭
#6
As I said in the spoilers thread, this is in no way (and cannot be) a substitute for Zoro replicating Ryuma's legend.


It flat out isn't a Ryuma parallel:
  1. Cutting a fire dragon attack is NOT the same thing as beheading an actual dragon.
  2. The scene did not take place over the Flower Capital.
  3. None of Wano's citizens was there to witness it.
    • So no new legend of a Sword God can be formed.
    • Nor can the resemblance to Ryuma's legend be noticed.
  4. The technique that Zoro used was not Hiryuu Kaen.
    • Hiryuu Kaen is what Zoro used to defeat Ryuma.
    • The technique that Ryuma used to behead the Flying Dragon had a similar stance/form to Hiryuu Kaen.
    • The Hiryuu Kaen that missed on the Onigashima Rooftop still needs to be addressed.
  5. The scene is meaningless.
    • King is not the source of Wano's misery.
    • Slaying King is not the unfulfilled will of Oden.
    • Zoro did not save anyone (other than himself) by slaying King's magma dragon.
    • This was just a cool scene with no actual deeper meaning.

Zoro cutting King's Fire Dragon attack may be foreshadowing for ZKK, or it may have no real meaning. Whichever the case though, it's definitely not a Ryuma parallel.

Really, one must be completely clueless about ZKK to think that slaying King's magma dragon is a suitable substitute.


Honestly, it's vexing that people who don't believe in ZKK clutch on to any small thing to cry out that ZKK is dead. I don't care if you believe in ZKK or not, and I'm no longer trying to persuade anyone of it.

But claiming that a scene like this is meant to be a substitute for ZKK is just flat out disingenous.
 
#9
So 1035 is out and once again, people jumped the gun on the spoilers, believing the provider that said Zoro's finisher looked almost exactly like Ryuma's in Monster. Well, no. That was bait. I'm here to examine some of the dragonslaying material we've received, both in and out of canon and it will become painfully obvious that Zoro vs Karyuudon is not the legend we were promised.

First, let's look at the comparison between Zoro, Ryuuma and Karyuudon.


Zoro and Ryuma very clearly decapitated the dragon, with the emphasis on the head flying away from the body, accompanied by a spray of blood effect.

This is clearly not a decapitation. It's a bisection. Zoro obviously cut the dragon lengthwise.

The spoiler provider also baited the community by stating that Zoro's finisher was a three sword version of Hiryuu Kaen, the attack that Kaido dodged earlier. That... is a massive reach. We don't actually know what Hiryuu Kaen looks like post timeskip, and Hiryuu Kaen is specifically a one-sword technique so a three-sword version of it would be... something else entirely. Not the same technique at all.

Members @Cinera and @KiriNigiri have done a better job of explaining this, so I'll only touch on this matter briefly, but dragons are seen as a symbol of established authority, a la the Celestial Dragons. Zoro is represented by a Tiger, symbolising a young upstart trying to take the throne from the old guard and rebuild the world anew. This idea was rehashed in the chapter here:



We were promised a new dragonslaying legend, with much emphasis placed on replicating Ryuuma's dragonslaying legend from long ago:
One Piece Magazine specifically depicts the decapitation from Punk Hazard. Which makes sense, seeing as that scene was the first homage to Ryuuma. I've already shown how Zoro cutting Karyuudon was not a decapitation, so where is the second Ryuuma homage, in which Zoro beheads an Eastern dragon instead?

For those of you who do not know, or simply enjoy lumping all Zoro fans together as a hive mind, I have been historically conservative with predicting ZKK. In Cinera's thread, I gave it a 60% chance, and I still stand by my rating. I have doubts about Oda having Zoro kill a person on-panel in such a gruesome way, but it's also very hard to refute the mountain of evidence that points to Kaido's death. I don't assign ZKK the highest probability of happening, but I think 1035 is far too premature to dismiss the theory either, particularly since we still have this massive plot point left unresolved:

We need Kaido to acknowledge that there still exists a monster samurai on par with Oden. This is a massive, massive plot point and the culmination of the samurai faction's arc, for Kaido to admit that despite his best efforts to stifle and disarm them, that great samurai will continue to rise. Kaido did not witness Zoro's fight with King and pretty much underestimated him all the way until he unleashed Ashura for the first time. Yet Kaido once again turned his attention away from Zoro, and did not see a link between Zoro and the way of the samurai he claims to love. With the Shimotsuki plotline still hanging, there is still time for Zoro to discover that he is, indeed a samurai by blood and re-challenge Kaido to prove him wrong. If Zoro does not prove him wrong, then Kaido, the villain, would be right in his assessment of the samurai. And we can't have that.

I will leave you with the last panel, where Zoro's finisher is called Jingoku, a word that evokes the samurai. Knowing Oda, this is almost certainly pointing towards Zoro formally acknowledging himself as one of them. Now where to from here? To which character would it be most relevant that Zoro considers himself a samurai? That's for you to decide.


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Well done. :cheers:

I still don't think Zoro is of the Shimotsuki lineage, but his dad was at least a retainer for the Shimos (or from a branch family instead of a main one). We had been baited by Oda to believe Luffy was Roger's son with them looking similar before, but turns out his grandad knew Roger as a friendly enemy instead. So I will stick to my opinion atm. :myman:

ZKK is upon us all, though. :steef:
Post automatically merged:

ZKK is dead. It’s okay Zoro fans, it’s time to come back to reality now.
 
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#11
I don’t read spoilers, but I think it’s pretty clear that the attack Zoro used this chapter is an (Enma) Santoryu version of Hiryu Kaen. The top right panel of Zoro facing into the jaws of the dragon is the same as Ryuma leaping into the jaws. This attack is just stronger, it doesn’t just decapitate the dragon, it slices him into pieces.

I think Zoro will still land a hit on Kaido. He’s going to be down for the next couple of chapters anyway when the vaccine wears off, that gives him time to be treated offpanel for a while enough to do one more hit.

Will that hit kill Kaido? As ever, a massive leap giving how Oda treats death, but I still stand by that someone needs to do it.
 
#13
For those who don't understand Simple English or also known as Zoro Haters
ZKK is not just "Slaying a Dragon". Zoro already done that in Punk Hazard

ZKK = Beheading a Dragon + A Real Dragon (Not Artificial or an Attack Move) + Fulfilling Oden's Will + Creating New Sword God Legend + Making Kaidou realize there is a New Monster Samurai + Saving Wano Citizens + Doing it with One-Sword Style + Witnesses (Momo, Hiyori, Onimaru, Tenguyama .. etc must definitely see it) + Who knows what i forgot

So what we saw Today in King's Defeat, not only it doesn't match ZKK, but it's not even close.
There was No Beheading + No Real Dragon + No Oden Story Involved + No New Legend + Three Swords instead + No One was Saved + No Witnesses + No Ryuma Story Involved

I mean the Fact that Zoro's Wano Story was mostly with Hiyori & Onimaru & how He must turn his Sword Black & also his Ties to Ryuma & Yasuie & Orochi ... etc yet none of those are yet explored in Raid, proves that Zoro's Real Role haven't happened yet, this is just some Self-Reflecting & Development for Zoro, it's an Extra Fight

So change your Pants Zoro Haters, you're gonna wet them again when you see:
Zoro meeting Hiyori, Orochi, Onimaru again, Ryuma's Flashback, Black Blade Explanation, Enma's Will to take Revenge on Kaidou, New Sword God & Monster Samurai Legend ... etc

I mean, when will you learn
At first you said Zoro's ZKK Moment was done in Punk Hazard & then you saw him in Roof Piece & started shaking
And then you said his ZKK Moment was his Failed Attack on Kaidou & then you saw him saying he can still use more Haki
And then you said his ZKK Moment is Asura Attack & then you saw him Unlock CoC & prove that Enma was a Nerf
And now you say his ZKK Moment is Defeating King, but when will you learn?

I advice you all wear Brown Pants for when Zoro face Kaidou again
 
#14
we have several people that are exactly like each others most of them have connection to wano
for example:
Tashigi and Kuina we now they're not same person they have 1 year age gap but personally i think Tashigi is also a Shimotsuki but from another ancestor (not kozaburo) we know that 1 full ship of people from wano arrived in east blue so it's possible that kozaburo wasn't only Shimotsuki in ship

Denjiro before transformation is exactly like Koshiro its possible that he is also a Shimotsuki

We also have zoro and ushimaru zoro also can be Shimotsuki but probably don't have direct blood relation to ushimaru (son - grandson)

if we found that tashigi and/or denjiro are also Shimotsuki it's possible that its a common trend in Shimotsuki Blood Line

-------------------------------

about cutting fire dragon in this chapter i don't thing is Replica of what Ryuma did cutting dragon in PH was Replica also no one saw that zoro cut king dragon attack

for me it was similar to oden's attack that cut kaido

i don't like the idea of zoro getting a black Blade in wano but thematically it make sense for enma to turn Black in wano and we know it wasn't in fight against king also we have what kaido said about there is no samurai like oden so it make sense for zoro to fight kaido again at least one more attack/clash and getting aknowledment from kaido
i hope it happen but it's a maybe for now zoro jumped out of onigashima

but about zkk i honestly don't think oda will kill any one in wano
 
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#15
What happened in this chapter has nothing to do with ZKK.

I don’t know why some people pretend this is the "closure" of ZKK build up. No, the build up is still there, in fact Oda keeps adding to it every few chapters the last addition was Zoro saying he never said Sunacchi.

The strongest anti ZKK argument is also the simplest one: for ZKK to be satisfactory (i.e., not crap like executing a guy who is already out cold) Zoro basically gotta steal Luffy's show in the climax of the arc.

Saying that Oda won't ultimately have the balls to do something like that is absolutely a legit argument. But if that is the case then the build up will simply remain unfulfilled. But for sure it wasn't settled with King in this chapter.
 
#16
I don’t read spoilers, but I think it’s pretty clear that the attack Zoro used this chapter is an (Enma) Santoryu version of Hiryu Kaen. The top right panel of Zoro facing into the jaws of the dragon is the same as Ryuma leaping into the jaws. This attack is just stronger, it doesn’t just decapitate the dragon, it slices him into pieces.

I think Zoro will still land a hit on Kaido. He’s going to be down for the next couple of chapters anyway when the vaccine wears off, that gives him time to be treated offpanel for a while enough to do one more hit.

Will that hit kill Kaido? As ever, a massive leap giving how Oda treats death, but I still stand by that someone needs to do it.
That’s not how Zoro’s techniques work though. Santoryu is not nitoryu, which is not ittoryu. It’s like saying an ittoryu version of Sanzen Sekai or a santoryu version of nigiri toro samon. That would be a different technique altogether.

The wiki specifically describes Hiryu Kaen as this:
Hiryu: Kaen (飛竜火焔, Hiryū: Kaen: Using one sword wielded in his left hand with his right hand gripping his left wrist for support (or vice-versa), Zoro jumps high up into the air and slashes his opponent. After slashing them, Zoro's opponent then bursts into flames (in the anime, the color of the fire is blue instead) from where they were slashed. This was first seen being used against The animal or creature that usually accompanies Zoro in the background when performing powerful techniques is an occidental dragon.

Zoro adopts a specific wrist-clutching stance before executing Hiryu Kaen. Hence it cannot be performed with three swords. I’m not a powerscaler so @Cinera or someone could probably explain better, but where else is Zoro supposed to jump except into the dragon’s mouth if it’s flying straight at him? The hero jumping into the dragon’s mouth is a pretty stock standard image, it’s a real stretch to say that this scene is ‘almost exactly like’ Ryuma’s since the real highlight of the scene is the decapitation anyway.
 
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#18
That’s not how Zoro’s techniques work though. Santoryu is not nitoryu, which is not ittoryu. It’s like saying an ittoryu version of Sanzen Sekai or a santoryu version of nigiri toro samon. That would be a different technique altogether.
His Pound Cannon attacks are explicitly ones that have a one sword, two sword and three sword version.

Zoro adopts a specific wrist-clutching stance before executing Hiryu Kaen. Hence it cannot be performed with three swords.
Again, Pound Cannon attacks say otherwise, his one sword version also has him using the wrist clutch stand beforehand, but the others don’t (because it’s impossible for him to do it).
but where else is Zoro supposed to jump except into the dragon’s mouth if it’s flying straight at him?
Thing is, Oda did not need to show that panel of him leaping towards the mouth from the exact same angle as in Monsters. Like I said, I don’t read spoilers, but the second I saw that page I thought “oh, that’s a Ryuma callback.”
The hero jumping into the dragon’s mouth is a pretty stock standard image, it’s a real stretch to say that this scene is ‘almost exactly like’ Ryuma’s since the real highlight of the scene is the decapitation anyway.
I think the much bigger stretch is to say this scene of Zoro cutting down a dragon isn’t a pretty obvious callback to the one of Ryuma cutting down a dragon.
 
#19
It's like I said before when I will continue to say it.

King is not a dragon. He is a dinosaur. Cutting a attack (fire attack) that takes the shape of a dragon is not the same as cutting a dragon. That is still just cutting an attack.

ZKK is still very much alive. Everything we have seen up until now is leading towards Zoro killing Kaido. Zoro now has the strength, power and skills to kill Kaido.
 
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