Worstgen
This is going to be a very long post, which might have an embarrassingly short answer. I apologize if this is a waste of everyone’s time.
But, I’ve just wondered for a while: How sure are we that the Celestial Dragon honorifics are actually based on gender?
For those who don’t know, in the original Japanese version, it’s been long believed that Celestial Dragons have different honorifics, depending on their gender. Male Celestial Dragons seem to have the honorific “-Sei” for “Sacred”, and the female Celestial Dragons have a different honorific “-Gu” for “Palace”. The thought being that it’s basically the same as the difference between “Mr” and “Mrs” or “-San” and “-Chan”.
https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/World_Noble#Translation_and_Dub_Issues
But, I just have to wonder how sure the fandom actually is about these different honorifics being caused by the difference in gender?
Because, in Japan, different honorifics can also be used to differenciate between younger and older people. Or different ranks or classes of people. A younger person might have the honorific “-kun”. Or a higher ranking person might have the honorific “-Sama”. A older, but still roughly equal class of person might have the honorific”-Sempai”. The point is that there’s more to Japanese honorifics than just indicating gender. They can also denote age or rank. So, why are we so sure that the Celestial Dragon’s honorifics are indicating gender rather than anything else that they could be?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_honorifics
https://www.busuu.com/en/japanese/honorifics
Well, I mean, I’m not THAT stupid. I know the reason everyone’s assuming this to be the case is Shalria. Shalria is the only named female Celestial Dragon we know about in the actual canon story. All the other Celestial Dragons we know about are male. Therefore, people assume the reason why she has a different honorific is because she’s a girl.
The REAL problem here is that…well, we only have this ONE data point to base any speculation on. Shalria is the only female Celestial Dragon we have a name for. We don’t know anyone else’s name so that we can compare.
https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Shalria
The thing is, that’s not the ONLY thing that’s different about Shalria compared to every other Celestial Dragon we’ve ever met. Because, as far as I know, she’s also the only one who’s under-age. She’s only 17. In Japan, she wouldn’t even be old enough to drink, since the legal drinking age over there is 20. Even Charlos, one of the only other “younger” Celestial Dragons we’ve got a name for, is 24. In Japanese terms, she’s still basically a “child”. Young enough to have a different honorific, anyway. Every other Celestial Dragon we have a name for would be considered a adult, compared to Shalria.
reddit.com/r/JapanTravelTips/comments/16o45ij/can_i_drink_alcohol/
https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Charlos
There’s other potential reasons Shalria could have the “-Gu” honorific, too. Maybe she just doesn’t have a job, yet. Many of the other Celestial Dragons do seem to have SOME sort of responsibility or work outside of Mariejois, even if it is only buying or selling slaves or being a “ambassador” or something. Or maybe she belongs to a different “department” than the rest of the Celestial Dragons. We know shockingly little about the Celestial Dragon’s culture, now that I think about it. There could be a lot of different reasons for the different honorific.
And let’s take a deeper look at the honorifcs, themselves, for a minute.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/聖#Japanese
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/宮#Japanese
“-Sei” means “Holy” or “Noble” or “Sacred” . That’s pretty self explanatory. Interestingly, though, the kanji is actually a combination of two other words. “Sun” and “knowing”. They are possibly people who know about the Sun. Or perhaps the Sun God, Nika? Also…it’s another term for a type of sake. Interesting, given that alcohol or Bink’s Sake might just be important to One Piece’s endgame.
“-Gu” means “Palace” or “Shrine”. Which also makes sense. They’re royals. They live in palaces. This is also a combination of two other kanji. “Spirit” and “House”. I feel like this could be a hint from Oda that people with this honorific are more “sheltered” than other Celestial Dragons. People with this honorific might be sheltered from the truth that the others know, until they come of age. This is made more possible since “Gu” can also be short for “Gung Jing” a type of “palace punishement” that includes the isolation of women from the rest of the population. It can also mean a note on a musical scale. Which is interesting, again, because of Bink’s Sake, the song. It can also mean a sign of the Zodiac, which gives us a connection to the stars themselves.
As far as I can tell, there isn’t really a “male” and “female” difference between these two words, at least on their own. In some languages, different words can have gender. Like in Spanish, certain words are masculine or feminine. Like Nino or Nina meaning “boy” or “girl” just based on if they have a “O” or “A” at the end of the word. But, as far as I can tell, that doesn’t seem to be the case here. I can’t find anything saything that “Sei” and “Gu” are gendered in that same way.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/masculine-feminine-in-spanish.html
So, could it be possible that the difference between “-Sei” and “-Gu” isn’t actually calling one a “man” and the other a “woman”? Is it possible that the actual difference between the two is that one group knows the truth about the Sun God Nika, and the other doesn’t? Or one group knows the history of the Void Century and the others don’t? Could younger people be “sheltered” from the truth of the past until they come of a certain age? When Vegapunk was sharing his message with the world, Shalria did act like she wasn’t at all aware of what he was talking about (chapter 1114). Could she not know because she hasn’t undergone some sort of “enlightening “ ceremony yet?
And, yes, this is partially about trying to determine Imu’s gender identity, but not entirely that. There are other things, like the person they cast to play Imu in the anime being Dio’s voice actor from Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure, that point to Imu most likely being male. (We still have to see if they do any weird voice modulation or something else to the voice, though. I honestly could see Toei having a male AND a female voice actor speak at the same time to give Imu’s voice a weird effect. Think of something like Baron Ashura from Mazinger Z. That way they can kick this decision down the road until something actually gets revealed in the manga about Imu, later on in the story.) Or Imu could just be hiding their identity with the “wrong” honorific.
But, I’m just wondering if there’s something in the honorifics themselves that make translator or Japanese speakers think that it’s a male/female split rather than any of the other possibilities I mentioned. Is there something about “-Sei” and “-Gu” that makes one more masculine and the other more feminine? Or is this a case of the fandom assuming something to be true, when we really don’t know for sure one way or another?
But, I’ve just wondered for a while: How sure are we that the Celestial Dragon honorifics are actually based on gender?
For those who don’t know, in the original Japanese version, it’s been long believed that Celestial Dragons have different honorifics, depending on their gender. Male Celestial Dragons seem to have the honorific “-Sei” for “Sacred”, and the female Celestial Dragons have a different honorific “-Gu” for “Palace”. The thought being that it’s basically the same as the difference between “Mr” and “Mrs” or “-San” and “-Chan”.
https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/World_Noble#Translation_and_Dub_Issues
But, I just have to wonder how sure the fandom actually is about these different honorifics being caused by the difference in gender?
Because, in Japan, different honorifics can also be used to differenciate between younger and older people. Or different ranks or classes of people. A younger person might have the honorific “-kun”. Or a higher ranking person might have the honorific “-Sama”. A older, but still roughly equal class of person might have the honorific”-Sempai”. The point is that there’s more to Japanese honorifics than just indicating gender. They can also denote age or rank. So, why are we so sure that the Celestial Dragon’s honorifics are indicating gender rather than anything else that they could be?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_honorifics
https://www.busuu.com/en/japanese/honorifics
Well, I mean, I’m not THAT stupid. I know the reason everyone’s assuming this to be the case is Shalria. Shalria is the only named female Celestial Dragon we know about in the actual canon story. All the other Celestial Dragons we know about are male. Therefore, people assume the reason why she has a different honorific is because she’s a girl.
The REAL problem here is that…well, we only have this ONE data point to base any speculation on. Shalria is the only female Celestial Dragon we have a name for. We don’t know anyone else’s name so that we can compare.
https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Shalria
The thing is, that’s not the ONLY thing that’s different about Shalria compared to every other Celestial Dragon we’ve ever met. Because, as far as I know, she’s also the only one who’s under-age. She’s only 17. In Japan, she wouldn’t even be old enough to drink, since the legal drinking age over there is 20. Even Charlos, one of the only other “younger” Celestial Dragons we’ve got a name for, is 24. In Japanese terms, she’s still basically a “child”. Young enough to have a different honorific, anyway. Every other Celestial Dragon we have a name for would be considered a adult, compared to Shalria.
reddit.com/r/JapanTravelTips/comments/16o45ij/can_i_drink_alcohol/
https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Charlos
There’s other potential reasons Shalria could have the “-Gu” honorific, too. Maybe she just doesn’t have a job, yet. Many of the other Celestial Dragons do seem to have SOME sort of responsibility or work outside of Mariejois, even if it is only buying or selling slaves or being a “ambassador” or something. Or maybe she belongs to a different “department” than the rest of the Celestial Dragons. We know shockingly little about the Celestial Dragon’s culture, now that I think about it. There could be a lot of different reasons for the different honorific.
And let’s take a deeper look at the honorifcs, themselves, for a minute.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/聖#Japanese
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/宮#Japanese
“-Sei” means “Holy” or “Noble” or “Sacred” . That’s pretty self explanatory. Interestingly, though, the kanji is actually a combination of two other words. “Sun” and “knowing”. They are possibly people who know about the Sun. Or perhaps the Sun God, Nika? Also…it’s another term for a type of sake. Interesting, given that alcohol or Bink’s Sake might just be important to One Piece’s endgame.
“-Gu” means “Palace” or “Shrine”. Which also makes sense. They’re royals. They live in palaces. This is also a combination of two other kanji. “Spirit” and “House”. I feel like this could be a hint from Oda that people with this honorific are more “sheltered” than other Celestial Dragons. People with this honorific might be sheltered from the truth that the others know, until they come of age. This is made more possible since “Gu” can also be short for “Gung Jing” a type of “palace punishement” that includes the isolation of women from the rest of the population. It can also mean a note on a musical scale. Which is interesting, again, because of Bink’s Sake, the song. It can also mean a sign of the Zodiac, which gives us a connection to the stars themselves.
As far as I can tell, there isn’t really a “male” and “female” difference between these two words, at least on their own. In some languages, different words can have gender. Like in Spanish, certain words are masculine or feminine. Like Nino or Nina meaning “boy” or “girl” just based on if they have a “O” or “A” at the end of the word. But, as far as I can tell, that doesn’t seem to be the case here. I can’t find anything saything that “Sei” and “Gu” are gendered in that same way.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/masculine-feminine-in-spanish.html
So, could it be possible that the difference between “-Sei” and “-Gu” isn’t actually calling one a “man” and the other a “woman”? Is it possible that the actual difference between the two is that one group knows the truth about the Sun God Nika, and the other doesn’t? Or one group knows the history of the Void Century and the others don’t? Could younger people be “sheltered” from the truth of the past until they come of a certain age? When Vegapunk was sharing his message with the world, Shalria did act like she wasn’t at all aware of what he was talking about (chapter 1114). Could she not know because she hasn’t undergone some sort of “enlightening “ ceremony yet?
And, yes, this is partially about trying to determine Imu’s gender identity, but not entirely that. There are other things, like the person they cast to play Imu in the anime being Dio’s voice actor from Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure, that point to Imu most likely being male. (We still have to see if they do any weird voice modulation or something else to the voice, though. I honestly could see Toei having a male AND a female voice actor speak at the same time to give Imu’s voice a weird effect. Think of something like Baron Ashura from Mazinger Z. That way they can kick this decision down the road until something actually gets revealed in the manga about Imu, later on in the story.) Or Imu could just be hiding their identity with the “wrong” honorific.
But, I’m just wondering if there’s something in the honorifics themselves that make translator or Japanese speakers think that it’s a male/female split rather than any of the other possibilities I mentioned. Is there something about “-Sei” and “-Gu” that makes one more masculine and the other more feminine? Or is this a case of the fandom assuming something to be true, when we really don’t know for sure one way or another?