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Is Bleach Better than Kingdom?


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If it's somewhat on the level of Duke (instictually) than it would be awesome. If that happens than the confrontation between SBS and Shin would be more epic.

Though i personally like him to be like Renpa. A general who's beast in strength and genius in warfare. We haven't seen many of the generals who have both brain and brawn. So far there're only Ouki, Gekishin, SHK and Renpa who fits in this category. While rest either too much brawn or too much strategical. Note : I don't believe Tou is on same level as either of the four mentioned above.
If he's instinctual, his insticts will be extremely strong, though I doubt they'll be on par with Hyou's. He'll be close, closer than anyone else.

Hyou's instinctual level will be perfectly matched and surpassed by Shin only imo.

But maybe he could also be both strategical and instinctual, like Renpa.

I'm definitely feeling the instinctual part at least.
 

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
that's what you think than forget about Ousen's formation, MouBu should be an one man army and SHK shouldn't have wasted his time and energy to prepare an strategy for tackling Chu's army.
Does this even deserve a response my man? Lol

Of course Moubu by himself cannot solo an entire army
:seriously:

Ousen also has Makou, Denrimi, Sou'ou, his chick, and Ousen can read the flow of the battle and adapt, makes traps, can attack a weak point of Moubu army to force him to help somewhere else etc etc.
All of Ousen’s commanders are irrelevant to Moubu, Akou is the only one who will give him some difficulty. The rest get destroyed.

And Ousen’s ability to read the flow of battle in a purely army vs army engagement is irrelevant when Ousen has nothing that can stop Moubu from plowing straight to his HQ in the long term. And if we take away Ousen’s ability to retreat or pull other strategic shenanigans then yeah, Moubu wins immediately. I think if Moubu was present at Shukai Plains, Riboku’s HQ itself would’ve been threatened on day literal one and Riboku would’ve ultimately been forced to retreat and engage the Qin in a different way.
 
I don’t know why Hara didn’t flesh out Moubu army more.

All Q6 armies were fleshed out, we know their commanders, their strengths, weaknesses, personalities etc etx

While for Moubu army : N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

With Moubu army it’s always Moubu Moubu Moubu and Moubu. (Or SHK)

it’s quite weird.
it's not cuz his name is a little mentioned in history

cuz kanki and some characters are like that .


so i think the reason is character of mobou and how he fight and how it affect the MC shin role.


so this why i think hara keeping him away.
 
If he's instinctual, his insticts will be extremely strong, though I doubt they'll be on par with Hyou's. He'll be close, closer than anyone else.

Hyou's instinctual level will be perfectly matched and surpassed by Shin only imo.
That should be enough for SBS. Lol
Hara has alreaddy given him everything. Hyping statement through Riboku, showed caliber by defeating/pushing backOrdo with just 5k men (iirc) and great subordinate generals.

Now even if he's somewhere around Duke instictually than that would be perfect or if he's like Renpa or Ouki than that would be more than awesome. We need more generals like them.

In this arc, Hara just should not make another Pokémon for Riboku whose role is just to save Riboku's ass at crucial moment.
 
Going by history the Chu invasion might further add fuel to Ousen vs Moubu if you know what i mean.
:myman:

Sure, so strategic warfare has to do with what battlefields you choose, where you choose to attack and why, how you choose to leak information to your enemies, how you choose to move your armies, etc…the grand scale stuff like that.

Ousen is arguably the best in the manga at this I think. His capture of Gyou was a gigantic strategic showing. He chose to seige the nine cities and send the refugees towards Gyou, he saw the two large Zhao armies that posed a threat and chose to leave Kanki at Gyou while he and Yo Tan Wa would face the Zhao armies, he chose to negotiate with Qi for reinforcements later on in the campaign, etc.. that’s all strategic stuff.
I see. I'd personally argue that Riboku and Shouheikun are above Ousen in that regard. Riboku's history is full of impressive feats luring his enemies in the exact location just where he wants them to be and his skill to shut down information is second to none. I think overall he's definitely a superior strategist.

Head-on war or “open war” as it’s called in Kingdom, is how you defeat an army when it is directly in front of you and you are engaging in a traditional battle. This would be stuff like battlefield tactics, formations, martial might, leadership/morale raising, etc…and at this stuff, I think Ousen is on the lower end of the spectrum compared to other GGs like Ouki, Renpa, Moubu, Yotanwa, etc…Ousen is good at open warfare but I think he loses to all of the above, and this is what I was talking about with Ousen vs Moubu.
Hmm then i did get it right. I'll have to disagree on that one tbh. Ousen especially impressed me with how he handled Riboku's centre army. Unfortunately we didn't get much more because both Riboku and Ousen stressed how the fate of the battle lies in the hands of the right wings battle outcome.

Shouheikun did say something to this effect directly to Moubu, something like “this will be the most difficult task of the entire Coalition War, but I think you are the only one who can achieve this” or something like that.
Well he was right. Nobody would've even come close. That battle was impossible to win via tactics.

Yes. Shells and Joints, we can pretty much assume that is Ousen’s best defensive tactic (excluding strategic things like retreating, mountain fortresses, hiding his army like against Ordo, etc) as this was the tactic that Akou busted out when it came time to stop Gyou’Un and Bananji dead. And like I said, I doubt that this stops Moubu as I assume Shouheikun knows defensive tactics of this caliber and yet according to him, tactics still do not work on Moubu.
I always got the impression that Ousen invented this technique and that it wasn't known before that battle. Otherwise Riboku wouldn't have needed so long to find out its weakness. I have a general problem with the tactics are useless against Moubu thing. This sounds far too crazy. This would basically mean any struggle against Moubu is pointless because he can always overcome them with sheer might.

@Shanks said it as well but there's a limit to how much an individual can do on their own.
Riboku said that Houken would've died if he didn't choose to retreat against YTW.
Stat wise Houken is even stronger than Moubu.

Tag me bro. They have equal stats and such a debate will probably go nowhere but I’m game nonetheless. Lol
Can't wait. Bananji was clearly winning my guy.
:myman:

No bro, Moubu did this with his second-stringers. That was the whole point of Moubu waiting until day two to attack, as his army lacked confidence due to their extreme disadvantage and waiting until day 2 drew out explosive strength from them.
I see. Well that speaks for Moubu's quality as a general to raise an armies strength.

Also, Rihaku’s troops and Ousen’s troops are probably pretty much the same…Ousen’s tactics may be better but an encirclement is pretty much the most devastating thing you can do to an army, and yet Moubu’s army still eradicated the encirclement which is truly a disturbingly good feat from Moubu quite frankly lol.
No way lol. The Akou and Makou armies soldiers have had insane feats and portrayal.

- Akou's army stops three armies let by GG calibre guys.
- Makou's army is even stronger than Akou's in canon iirc.

Don't forget all this was done with the soldiers running out of food and energy.

Perhaps. Renpa is like the open warfare goat though. No Great General we’ve seen is beating him and his Heavenly Kings. I’d be curious to see how Renpa would deal with Moubu or Kanmei.
He's absolutely broken. He's like all types of generals fused in one. Always struggled to see how Ouki is above him.

Moubu’s feats do match the statements we got about him though, if anything all of the statements we received about him were underselling what he was actually capable of. And all of these statements were made by credible sources. I would think that the same applies to Ousen, and Moubu’s statements > Ousen’s.
Having better portrayal does not really change the matchup and Ousen's strength has mostly been a mystery during that time. Sure, SHK knows what he's all about but i don't think he has seen how much he developed as a general.

Sharing a rank doesn’t equate to sharing strength lol. But regardless I don’t think Moubu is far above Tou but he is above him.
Going by Tou's words. He very well could've implied that up until the coalition Tou>Moubu but as i said before these statements are very vague.

Bruh, go reread the “number one Qin General” thread. The disrespect thrown at Moubu thread is thicc. Ousen also has 21 votes on the poll and Moubu has like 5 lol. I’m pretty sure Tou and Yotanwa have the same amount of votes as him.
Lol i didn't know that. I did know that Ousen is wanked too death by the Kingdom community on reddit and that long before the Gyou campaign even started.

have the feeling that Shibashou will be at least partially an instinctual commander, a sleeping wild beast that awakened. Thoughts?
Stop it bro you can't hype me this much for SBS
:steef:

Lee most definitely doesn't, as you might have noticed lol.
Lol yea for sure.
Didn't age well. Did he underestimate Ousen lol?
 
Basic kanki strategy is guerila tactic.
When nights come huge army will be defendless, why? Because too much army too lead and the night will confuse them.
With guerilla tactic small army will opmtimize and they can attack the enemy easily.
Hope next chapter come soon cant wait to see how this end.
 
I'd personally argue that Riboku and Shouheikun are above Ousen in that regard. Riboku's history is full of impressive feats luring his enemies in the exact location just where he wants them to be and his skill to shut down information is second to none. I think overall he's definitely a superior strategist.
They are all superb but in that regard I have got Ousen and Riboku above Shouheikun. Shouheikun and Riboku had quite the number of direct confrontations and Riboku was superior, overall.

I'll have to disagree on that one tbh. Ousen especially impressed me with how he handled Riboku's centre army. Unfortunately we didn't get much more because both Riboku and Ousen stressed how the fate of the battle lies in the hands of the right wings battle outcome.
Ousen and Riboku were absolute monsters in their Shukai battle. Manipulations to reach the scenario they wanted, precise predictions on how things were going to evolve, huge strategic vision all around, sick formations. Yeah I had already said it in my other comment. But in the plains they are not "good", not "pretty good", not "very very good"...they are deadly. Lol.

Lol i didn't know that. I did know that Ousen is wanked too death by the Kingdom community on reddit


This is what I sent to the poor @Jailer - who is completely done with that sub😂 - some days ago.

I go on r/Kingdom just from time to time and I find Riboku downplay in seconds lol. Context goes brrrrrrr.

Ousen yeah, he's highly regarded.

He's absolutely broken. He's like all types of generals fused in one. Always struggled to see how Ouki is above him.
Renpa's on screen presence in a war is something else, I can't fucking wait to see him fight again. Him and Ousen waging war are so good to watch for me.

Ouki is not above Renpa, they are portrayed evenly. The only member of the old Qin Six who is even stronger than Renpa is Hakuki. He was the hardest member of the Qin Six to face for Renpa.

When the revival of the Qin Six system was being discussed in other states, things turned into Hakuki wank pretty quickly :denzimote:

Think about the reputation Ouki had when he died and that Hakuki was even above that.

Stop it bro you can't hype me this much for SBS
:steef:
He will terrify the battlefield, like a wild tiger hunting in an area full of deers :steef:
 
I don’t know why Hara didn’t flesh out Moubu army more.

All Q6 armies were fleshed out, we know their commanders, their strengths, weaknesses, personalities etc etx

While for Moubu army : N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

With Moubu army it’s always Moubu Moubu Moubu and Moubu. (Or SHK)

it’s quite weird.
As you can see
Yotanwa
Kanki
Ousen
Riboki
Renpa

All have one common similarities

They use their brain 🧠
Something Moubu doesn't possess
 
I don’t know why Hara didn’t flesh out Moubu army more.

All Q6 armies were fleshed out, we know their commanders, their strengths, weaknesses, personalities etc etx

While for Moubu army : N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

With Moubu army it’s always Moubu Moubu Moubu and Moubu. (Or SHK)

it’s quite weird.
Well there’s Aisen but yes there should be more commanders under Moubu even if he’s only about strenght, exceptional Generals all attract special commanders under them.. Maybe Moubu’s commanders are all about power too, still they should have their own persona..

Moubu should have a commander with 93 or 94 of strenght under him just how Rinbukun was a mini Kanmei..
 

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
All Q6 armies were fleshed out, we know their commanders, their strengths, weaknesses, personalities etc etx
Moubu will probably have the strongest martial commanders, I hate to break it to y’all lol. Not receiving focus yet =/= “they are weak”

Like I said, Moubu had a throwaway General in Aisen that by stats is stronger than Akou and as strong as Rokuomi lol. Just imagine how strong Raiki will be if Moubu is just giving away Akou+ level dudes lol.
 

Gehrman

𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝕱𝖎𝖗𝖘𝖙 𝕳𝖚𝖓𝖙𝖊𝖗
I don’t know why Hara didn’t flesh out Moubu army more.

All Q6 armies were fleshed out, we know their commanders, their strengths, weaknesses, personalities etc etx

While for Moubu army : N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

With Moubu army it’s always Moubu Moubu Moubu and Moubu. (Or SHK)

it’s quite weird.
I'm sure his army will get plenty of focus when the time comes.

Lets look at all the arcs where Moubu had tons of screentime.

Bayou - We saw a shit ton of the Ouki commanders like Tou, and Moubu himself was overshadowed in importance by Shin, Ouki, Riboku and Houken. Moubu's role in the arc was to get humbled, it wasn't the time or the place to show off his subordinates.

Coalition - There wasn't enough time for his army to get screentime. Coalition Arc had a stupid large amount of characters and it's insane to me that Hara managed the arc so well.

Juuko - Too short, the primary focus and reason for the arc was to introduce the Juuko guys for a future arc.

Now lets compare the other 6GGS armies.

Tou's - We got the beforementioned Bayou arc along with the Wei Fire Dragon arc to show them off.

Kanki - We had Koko You Arc along with the Kochou arc and current arc, and we still don't know that much about the Saki Clan who seem important.

Yo Tan Wa - They received tons of focus during Seikyou and during the Western Zhao Invasion. Baijo is probably the GG subordinate with the most panel time behind maybe Tou lmao.

Ousen - Western Zhao Invasion had tons of screentime for his.
 
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looks like riboku predicted that kanki cannot fight in normal battlefield according to his observation will be his biggest mistakes :myman:
although i agree that according riboku kanki always use scheme and clever tactic not conventional warfare .
but when kanki made windmill formation :steef: HYPE !!!
 
I don’t know why Hara didn’t flesh out Moubu army more.

All Q6 armies were fleshed out, we know their commanders, their strengths, weaknesses, personalities etc etx

While for Moubu army : N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

With Moubu army it’s always Moubu Moubu Moubu and Moubu. (Or SHK)

it’s quite weird.
He isn't someone who listens or follows to others tactics and strategy. It was shown countless times (with coalition being an exception). So, maybe Hara didn't want to waste panels on him listening to his deputies only to shoot down their game plans. But we do know he had/ has some monsters under him like Aisen and I believe their are many others like him.

It's good to see how heated this thread has become. :shocking:
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
Moubu will probably have the strongest martial commanders, I hate to break it to y’all lol. Not receiving focus yet =/= “they are weak”

Like I said, Moubu had a throwaway General in Aisen that by stats is stronger than Akou and as strong as Rokuomi lol. Just imagine how strong Raiki will be if Moubu is just giving away Akou+ level dudes lol.
Not saying they are weak. But we are 800 chapters deep into the story and Moubu army stays a complete mystery. Just shows that Hara doesn’t really care and only Moubu is important story wise during his battle, the focus is always on Moubu and likely will stay on Moubu.


Coalition - There wasn't enough time for his army to get screentime. Coalition Arc had a stupid large amount of characters and it's insane to me that Hara managed the arc so well.
Lots of time to even show them, show their faces, had them making a comment during the Kanmei fight etc.

Ouki commanders had their moments to shine during that battle : Rokuomi fought RBK, they had their moments with Karin and elephants etc etc. While we didn’t see even a glimpse of Moubu commanders. Hara could have used a folder commander and make him die but didn’t do it either but chose a Ouki commander again.


Juuko - Too short, the primary focus and reason for the arc was to introduce the Juuko guys for a future arc.
Same here. Tons of way to at least show once or twice Moubu army, a comments, just faces, etc etc.

Yet nothing.

Moubu had been here for a lot of time yet we still have nothing. And given the trend I don’t think this will really change in the future.
 
Not saying they are weak. But we are 800 chapters deep into the story and Moubu army stays a complete mystery. Just shows that Hara doesn’t really care and only Moubu is important story wise during his battle, the focus is always on Moubu and likely will stay on Moubu.



Lots of time to even show them, show their faces, had them making a comment during the Kanmei fight etc.

Ouki commanders had their moments to shine during that battle : Rokuomi fought RBK, they had their moments with Karin and elephants etc etc. While we didn’t see even a glimpse of Moubu commanders. Hara could have used a folder commander and make him die but didn’t do it either but chose a Ouki commander again.



Same here. Tons of way to at least show once or twice Moubu army, a comments, just faces, etc etc.

Yet nothing.

Moubu had been here for a lot of time yet we still have nothing. And given the trend I don’t think this will really change in the future.
Odds are it won't change even during the Chu invasion. It's quite obvious that Qin will attack with a combined army possibly bigger than the one that went after Gyou.
 
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