Great Generals Tournament, Losers R2 - Round 2

Who Wins?


  • Total voters
    12

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Unto Greater Heights
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#1
We have another very tough one! Loser of this round is Eliminated

Rules:
-Some of the Generals featured in this tournament have only hype and no feats, so just vote based on who you think would win based on whatever reasoning you feel!
-You MUST vote in the poll for your vote to count!
-Discussion is of course always welcome but keep it civil. Feel free to try and persuade each other why the General you feel is stronger overall would win.

Round 2 - Losers Round 2

Duke Hyou

-Has a Qin Army of 130,000 including his Personal Cavalry
-Duke Hyou will also pick up the 8,000 men of the Hi Shin Unit, lead by 5,000 Man Commander Shin and 3,000 Man Commander Kyou Kai


VERSUS

Yo Tan Wa

-Yo Tan Wa has an army of 60,000 Mountain People
-She will also be accompanied by a Qin Army of 50,000 lead by General Heki
Subordinate Generals:
Bajio, Danto, Tajifu, Shunmen, Kitari, etc

Location: Dakan Plains
Scenario: War to slay the opposing commander or force them to surrender by any means necessary. Literally any strategy or lack-there-of is allowed. If you think one of the Generals would permanently retreat, count that as a loss for that General.

Who Wins and Why?

@Owl Ki @Blackbeard @Patryipe @Bullet @Dark Admiral @Guan Yu @Dovahkiin @Greenbeard @DizzyBrows @PuckTheGreat @MarineHQ62 @NeutralWatcher @RayanOO @Ninjashadow0209 @Arara @Hiragaro @Yo Tan Wa @Xione @FaradaySloth
 
#5
Hoh, Looks like I picked Duke with 1:4 on the poll. :hihihi:
Now let me explain on how Duke takes a Win here. First off the Duke vs Yotanwa, Yo Tan Wa is a Great strategist who had managed to unify the mountain tribes. Duke is an instinctual General who have constantly been in the front lines of the battlefield. Duke has shown he can handle any and all strategy thrown at him. He pretty much toyed with Gohoumei in the battlefield. Even Riboku could not help but admire the instincts of him. It took the mighty Houken himself to put down the Duke and even he paid a fair price with his arm(short term though). Even giving the equal points as a General, Duke can overpower and outmanoeuvre YoTanWa here.
Bajio has always been the wild card for mountain people and even proved his worth while being surrounded by the enemies in Ryou Ryou battle. But the same can be said for Shin and Kyoukai. Any one of them is fully capable of stopping him and given the opportunity, even slay him. Kyoukai can outmatch even Houken in speed (short period though lol). Shin with his will of being GG could go toe to toe against the Houken (with one slightly bad arm) even during Coalition arc. As for Taijifu, I put him slightly above average warrior who can be matched by any vassals of Duke.
General Heki and his cavalry of 50k, :suresure:
On serious note, the army number is 130k Vs 110k. Duke’s army isn’t one to be intimates by mountain people as they themselves can turn into a demon on their own right;
So, the army can be said even with 130k against the 110k. The only difference that makes here is the extra cavalry of Hi shin Unit against General Heki’s cavalry. Karyo Ten is alone enough to outsmart Heki. Also the fact of how well Shin and Duke get along with their instincts and the army composition of theirs.

Finally the winner is Duke Hyou with Hi Shin Unit. And the most important factor that plays its hand here is;
 

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Unto Greater Heights
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#6
I keep going back and forth on this one lol.

On the one hand, Duke Hyou’s tendency to send tens of thousands of men to their deaths just to find a single opening is going to cost him hard here. If there’s any army that is going to horrifically and systematically obliterate scores of men at even the slightest whiff of lack-of-strategy, it’s Yo Tan Wa’s brutally powerful army of monster men. The strongest in this tournament.

On the other hand, Duke Hyou is a hardcore sleeper pick to win this entire tournament tbh. I still maintain that he should not have lost to Ousen in Winners, as his Instincts have demonstrated themselves to be absolutely an undeniably top tier. Even those as strong as Riboku are not safe.

Duke Hyou’s cavalry charges and personal cavalry are also among the strongest in the entire manga. Not only are his big beefy ass soldiers incredibly strong, but Duke Hyou’s morale raising is among the best in the manga as well.

The biggest problem for the Duke here is that Yo Tan Wa’s men (imo) are all probably just as strong as his own cavalry, and Yo Tan Wa’s morale raising is just better than his. Not by much, but she is better at it.

But the Duke also has the Hi Shin Unit supporting him, and they are a massive power-house of a unit. As a warrior, I’ll maintain that Shin and Kyoukai are the most dangerous warriors here. Shin himself is I’d say about Mid Great General tier as a warrior, and Kyoukai is at the top of the manga in high GG tier as a warrior. Yo Tan Wa, I was never too impressed with her swordsmanship tbh, at least in comparison to the other top tier warriors. Idk why really. Danto, Bajio, and Tajifu will lose to Shin and Kyoukai so YTW herself would need to face them, and I just don’t think she’d win against them.

Even against Duke Hyou by himself, I think Yo Tan Wa earns a dubious win at best. With his Instincts, he could quite easily outmaneuver her and slay her 1v1 even if she’s going to exterminate 90% of his army.

But with the Hi Shin Unit supporting him? Nah. It’s just too ideal of a situation for him.

Yo Tan Wa will exterminate his entire army with prejudice, and really won’t lose much men herself at all. But she will find herself incapable of stopping Shin and Kyoukai, who will slay both her and her generals. Unless the Duke reaches her first, and in that fight I’d favor the Duke.

The Duke wins with the most extremist of Diffs.
 
#7
Very tough matchup, here's what I think, Yo Tan Wa is an amazing strategist and can defeat an army close to 3 times the size of her own, and they have capable fighters like Bajio (obviously) and the Feego King (who was holding his own against Rozo), usually, Yo Tan Wa is the worst matchup for an established army led by non-top tier generals due to her tactics and ferocity of her soldiers, she simply can't win against Duke Hyou's type, he's the best instinctual general that brought some of the best strategists like Gohoumei & Gokei and the best strategist Riboku himself down to their knees in a relatively short period of time. This means he's going after Yo Tan Wa the second he knows he should go. He's clearing his way there because despite Yo Tan Wa's army being fierce and powerful like DarkAdmiral already showed, Duke Hyou's troops turn into demons almost, so they can hard counter Yo Tan Wa's army (almost definitely due to the over 2 to 1 ratio, Heki doesn't count...fodder.)

The next factor is the Hi Shin Unit, the Hi Shin Unit managed to beat Riboku's Left Wing army (not by themselves but you get my point, at some point they faced every portion of the Left Wing) which is arguably one of the best armies we have seen and this was when they were mostly malnourished, I believe that through willpower they can match any army's troops, including Yo Tan Wa, and also I believe Kyoukai can beat Bajio 1v1 (yes big claim I know) so I think in most fighters on average, Duke Hyou has the advantage. The problem for Duke Hyou's side is the win conditions, Duke Hyou slaying Yo Tan Wa? That's a big claim, I believe Yo Tan Wa is the superior fighter with the Duke being superior in physicals.

It'll be a fun duel but who would win is tough, I mean if the Duke dies then oh well there goes nearly all the advantages and hard work they did, but considering Duke managed to take out Houken's arm and I believe Yo Tan Wa wouldn't be capable of defeating Houken in any extent, I think Duke manages to pull out.

the winner imo is the Duke Hyou Army
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
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#9
Tough Match up ... And the score is 4 vs 4 so I will be a game changer haha (even if @Yo Tan Wa didn't vote yet)

Only against Hyou, army against army YTW has the advantage : too much power and better powerhouse in the army : Bajio, Kitari etc. While the cavalry of Duke is good, army vs army he is outguned.

But HSU is overpowered. A moral that can reach the sky, two monsters : Shin and Kyoukai are stronger than Bajio, except YTW herself no one can stop them and even her it is not a given.
(little problem : isn't the Duke cavalry in the HSU now ? so this means that the duke cavalry is here two times).

We saw during the Shukai plains that the HSU is insane : insane foot soliders, insane cavalry, insane leaders etc. They can clearly fight eyes to eyes the montains tribes.

Tactical wise : YTW is superior to Karyo Ten or KyouKai. But will it be enough ?

The Duke and current Shin is a deadly combo of instinct : one can fuel the other and vice versa. One can create a fire that the other will use etc.

It will be hard and they will lose a lot of soldiers but I can see the Duke army plus Shin winning this.
 
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#10
Duke Hyou due to HSU.

Strategy vs Instincts:

Shin - Duke make an incredibly strong pair of instinctual based generals, and they were quite well together at that. Especially since this is a face to face war where Duke & Shin are the most dangerous, Yotanwa doesn't have the strategical power under her to deal with them.

Martial Might:

I'm not certain if Shin is stronger than Yotanwa in martial might, we'll see (weight of general is a giant unknown factor). But they'll at worst be on part with each other. And the Duke can also keep her busy as well, though I don't think he's strong as her when it comes to martial might.

So you really only need one of the two to go against her if need be when it comes to martial might. Leaving the other one free, and Yotanwa doesn't have anybody else under her that can go against the Duke or Shin in martial might, there's also Kyoukai who's roughly near Shin.. Yotanwa again having no underling who matches up with her as well.


Underlings:

HSU again plays a crucial role, you essentially have 3 individuals who the Duke can split off into commanders that'll lead bigger portions of the army.

Who am I taking from the YTW army over Shin as a general/commander? Nobody, with En-San & Sosui next to him, he's got better strategy/martial might/leadership than any of YTW's underlings

Who am I taking from YTW army over Kyoukai as a general/commander? Not a single soul, she's even better than Shin when it comes to this, her tactics if used on a bigger scale would be baaad news for the Mountain folk

Who am I taking from YTW army over Karyo Ten as a general/commander? Not a single soul again, Ten is even better than the above two when it comes to this, as having serving as the strategist for the above two. Was also implied she could've gotten used to somebody like Gyou'un if given enough time (she simply lacks experience)..there's nobody in the YTW army who poses such trouble for her.


YTW's got strong fighters and etc, that's cool. HSU provides the archer bros, they also have Naki who should be able to go toe to toe with somebody like non-berserk Bajio. You also have Ryuusen, who is pretty much a Tajifu of the HSU. Dudes like Suugen who are masters of the sword.


Army:

While on a physical level you can say Mountain men > Qin army.. but that can be countered with tactics. On top of that you have the likes of Duke & Shin in here who are huge morale boosters, though individually not as much as YTW is, but together they're superior to just her. And morale boost can even turn citizens to be able to fight against elites.

So I'd personally give the army advantage to the Qin Army as well if they're able to deploy good tactics.




Duke or YTW:

If we're just asking Duke or YTW, YTW is the superior general. Maybe if you limit the Duke being able to give bigger command over his army to the HSU, that it's possible for YTW to win, since HSU would be limited in their role. But if the Duke can do w.e he wants with the HSU, then yea YTW no chance in the Dakan Plains.
 
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#11
@Admiral Lee Hung this is a very close matchup so I just want to clarify a few things.

Is Karyo Ten here? She is not in the opening post yet a few folk are treating the scenario like she is here. My answer will greatly differ depending on her presence. :kizabat:

Does Yotanwa have every single one of her subordinates? Basically, everyone she brought to cobble the Zhao (so no Rankai I guess? Lol.).
 

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Unto Greater Heights
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#12
@Admiral Lee Hung this is a very close matchup so I just want to clarify a few things.

Is Karyo Ten here? She is not in the opening post yet a few folk are treating the scenario like she is here. My answer will greatly differ depending on her presence. :kizabat:

Does Yotanwa have every single one of her subordinates? Basically, everyone she brought to cobble the Zhao (so no Rankai I guess? Lol.).
Yes to both lol. I didn’t clarify Ten but she is here.

The only subordinate commander Yo Tan Wa shouldn’t have is Katari as he is dead.

And also something @RayanOO mentioned,

Shin did not gain all of Duke Hyou’s cavalry. He gained some but not all. So I guess just imagine Duke has the majority of them who did not join the HSU.
 
#13
Yes to both lol. I didn’t clarify Ten but she is here.

The only subordinate commander Yo Tan Wa shouldn’t have is Katari as he is dead.
If Ten is there then that is enough to convince me to go from a debatable extreme diff Yotanwa Army victory to a solid high/extreme diff Duke Hyou Army victory. Katari’s presence or lack there of honestly changes very little.

Here is my thought process for this matchup.

The Yotanwa Army’s basic infantry are essentially worth two basic Qin Soldiers and allows the Yotanwa Army to punch far above it’s weight and successfully defeat forces 2-3 times larger than itself (which is what happened during the Battle of Ryouyou).

In short, 60,000 Mountain Warriors are practically worth 120,000 Qin Soldiers. Add Heki’s 50,000 to that and you have an army worth 170,000 Qin Soldiers vs the Duke’s 138,000 troops.

While the Yotanwa Army has superior forces, Duke Hyou has superior subordinates. Shin, Kyoukai and Duke Hyou himself are all amongst the Greatest Dualists of Kingdom. From the Yotanwa Army, only Yotanwa herself is comparable to those three in a dual. Even her strongest subordinate in Bajio is still a tier below Shin and co. Duke Hyou and the HSU are also far better at tactics than the Yotanwa Army as a whole with (again) only Yotanwa herself being great at tactics.

So the dilemma for Duke Hyou is this. Can the Duke Hyou Army + Hi Shin Unit defeat or kill Yotanwa and her subordinate commanders before the basic troops of the Yotanwa Army overwhelm the Qin forces?

If Ten is there, she can act as a tactical lynchpin to strategically hold the Duke Hyou Army together while the Duke himself heads out. If she was not there, then the Duke would be a bit stuck as there would be no notable individual left to direct troops if he went out to confront Yotanwa.

The Duke and Yotanwa will fight each other in a dual. That is a guarantee. The Duke always goes for the enemy commander and Yotanwa will never allow a direct challenge to go unanswered.

Unpopular opinion but I actually believe that Yotanwa would defeat the Duke in an extreme diff dual. Regardless of who wins, Yotanwa will be physically incapacitated for the rest of the battle either through her injuries or through losing to the Duke.

So that leaves Kyoukai, Shin and Ten to deal with Bajio, Danto, Kitari, Tajifu, Shunmen and Heki while the Duke duals Yotanwa.

While this may seem like a tall order, if Shin and Kyoukai go for Bajio, Danto and Kitari first (which they likely will since those three would be the most immediate threats buckling the Qin lines) then that would greatly blunt the momentum and power of the Yotanwa Army. Kitari especially would cause the Mera Tribe to stop dead in it’s tracks just like when Katari died.

Ten could certainly use her strategical skills to stall Heki and I am confident that she could stall Tajifu and Shunmen long enough for Shin and Kyoukai to take out the most important opposing commanders.

Once Bajio, Danto and Kitari are slain and whatever the outcome of Duke Hyou vs Yotanwa, Shin and Kyoukai can clean up any enemy commanders that are left between them (i.e. Tajifu, Shunmen, Heki and possibly a greatly injured Yotanwa).

Duke Hyou Army victory, high/extreme diff with most of his army and quite possibly even himself dead.
 
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