Great Generals Tournament, Losers R2 - Round 4

Who Wins?


  • Total voters
    12

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Unto Greater Heights
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#1
This one is going to be a big one!

Loser of this round is Eliminated

Rules:
-Some of the Generals featured in this tournament have only hype and no feats, so just vote based on who you think would win based on whatever reasoning you feel!
-You MUST vote in the poll for your vote to count!
-Discussion is of course always welcome but keep it civil. Feel free to try and persuade each other why the General you feel is stronger overall would win.

Round 4 - Losers Round 2

Ou Ki

-The Last of the Qin 6: Since he was the longest living member of the Legendary Qin 6 and was regarded as the strongest General of his age, Lips-Sama has a Qin Army of 180,000 men
-Subordinate Generals:
-Tou
-Roku Omi, Kan Ou, Rin Bou, Dou Kin, Ryuu Koku, etc etc

VERSUS

Rin Shou Jou

-Original Three Great Heavens: An OG Member of the Zhao Three Great Heavens, Rin Shou Jou has a Zhao Army of 160K
-Subordinate Generals: In addition to Gyou'Un and Chou Garyuu, Rin Shou Jou will also be accompanied by the other 8 members of his original Ten Heroes
-Gyou'Un (who has 2,000 man Rai'Un as well as the Ten Spears)
-Chou Garyuu

Location: Shukai Plains
Scenario: War to slay the opposing commander or force them to surrender by any means necessary. Literally any strategy or lack-there-of is allowed. If you think one of the Generals would permanently retreat, count that as a loss for that General.

Who Wins and Why?

@Owl Ki @Blackbeard @Patryipe @Bullet @Dark Admiral @Guan Yu @Dovahkiin @Greenbeard @DizzyBrows @PuckTheGreat @MarineHQ62 @NeutralWatcher @RayanOO @Ninjashadow0209 @Arara @Hiragaro @Yo Tan Wa @Xione @FaradaySloth
 
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#2
Once again I picked the odd one I guess.:milaugh:
I’d go with RSJ for two reasons -
First he is my Favourite GG of past.
Secondly, he has the most competent subordinates among the others. Renpa too has such subordinates.
These two Generals make such a great pair. In ch-597, we can see their interactions and it was both funny and interesting at the same time.
Apart from Tou, the other vassals of Ouki have proven themselves nothing but a brute warriors. The vassals of the RSJ were more calm and collected and the two men who were his loose arrow could be both put on mid GG tier. Chogaryuu was a very cunning and a great strategist and Gyou’un was the brute with no equals in Zhao. And he has 10 of such underlings. Even if all of them were not of high tier, it is safe to say they were all of mid tier Generals like Kisui.
As for Ouki Vs RSJ:

RSJ saw something in the Ouki which is why he led him towards this narrow river to have a chat. It is pretty impressive considering how Ouki can win a battle against a mere Generals before the battle even begins (General Fukki).
RSJ was a visionary GG. He had a dream about unification of China just like Sei and his Gramps. So his weight as a GG should be a lot heavier too. (I’m not saying he can beat Ouki in martial might)

It is an open field of Shukai Plains, a terrain of Zhao. RSJ is sure to have something special waiting for Ouki there. :dogood:
Post automatically merged:

I forgot about the 10 spears. They could probably bag few of the Ouki’s subordinates too. :sanmoji:
The real threats from Ouki army will be Tou(95-97), Rokumi (88-90) and General Ouki (98-99) himself. Others are probably below 85 in terms of overall battle controls.
 
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Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Unto Greater Heights
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#3
@Dark Admiral I respect the Rinshoujou hype lol, but in this matchup, I have to go with Lips-Sama himself. Ouki, at the height of his strength (Bayou) is legit one of the strongest Generals of all time. It is essentially not a fair matchup, we are comparing a Rinshoujou who died before he could reach his peak, to an Ouki who outlived every one of the Qin 6.

Let's break this down:

Okay so first off, Army Size:
I think I've tended to disregard army size in this tournament, and the size of your army is really only relevant to attrition warfare. We've seen smaller armies defeat bigger armies pretty consistently in Kingdom. Here, Ouki has 180K and Rinshoujou has 160K. That's a pretty negligible difference imo but it is at least a very minor advantage to the Qin.

Next up, Tactics:
So, Rinshoujou and his army are going to have the tactical advantage. As someone who reached the rank of Three Great Heavens with only his tactical acumen, Rinshoujou should have the edge over Ouki who reached the rank of Qin 6 based both on his tactics and fighting ability.

However, here's the thing: I don't actually think Rinshoujou is really capable of anything that would throw Ouki off. Even against the Godboku himself, Riboku could not actually deceive or fool Ouki. With pretty much no information to go off of, Ouki had deduced Riboku's grand plan and the existence of an entirely separate army, just based on the way his enemies retreated. While I do think Rinshoujou will be one of the tactical "gods" of this manga, I think it's undeniable that Riboku is superior to him, and yet even Riboku himself was not truly able to deceive Ouki.

However, not being able to trick Ouki doesn't mean he can't be outplayed. Riboku could not trick Ouki but he most certainly did force Ouki into the most un-ideal situation possible in order to slay him. Can Rinshoujou outplay Ouki in this manner?

Again, I'm not so sure. The only reason Ouki was forced into this position against Riboku was because of Moubu's own blunders. So long as none of Ouki's generals make a similar mistake (and I doubt they would for reasons I won't elaborate on here), then Rinshoujou should not actually be capable of tactically outplaying Ouki.

A very minor tactical advantage to Rinshoujou.

Martial Might:
The Ouki Army has a more clear advantage here.

The Rinshoujou Army has Gyou'Un, who's offensive abilities (including his own fighting strength) are Great General Level. Gyou'Un is one of the top tier manly men in this manga. Other than Gyou'Un, Rinshoujou's Ten Heroes are probably very strong, as it was stated that his subordinates held the Martial Burden of the Rinshoujou Army as he himself could not. Chou Garyuu, if I had to directly compare him to someone, I'd say he could be about as strong as Rokuomi, and if I had to guess about how strong the rest of the Ten Heroes were, I'd say somewhere around Chou Garyuu level.

Now, the Ouki Army. First up, Ouki himself. I'm pretty sure I don't even need to say anything, just the mere mention of succulent lips themselves should remind you all how strong of a warrior this guy is. There is a legitimate case to be made that Ouki is the strongest warrior in Kingdom History. Great General Tier, most assuredly lol. Tou's fighting ability is still pretty mysterious, but what's certain is that he himself can certainly fight on the level of the strongest warriors in the manga. He crushed Rinbukun convincingly and showed no weakness against Ranbihaku of Wei, who seems like quite a savage and strong warrior. Rokuomi again is probably Chou Garyuu level, and the rest of Ouki's subordinates are probably close to Rokuomi martially.

The main advantage that the Ouki Army has is Ouki Himself. If we high-ball Gyou'Un, and I mean truly high-ball him, we could say that he is equal to Ouki is a warrior. If we low ball Gyou'Un however, then we can say that he is pretty close but ultimately inferior to Ouki. And that's about all we need to say really.

Best case scenario for the Rinshoujou Army, they have 1 guy equal to Ouki, with Rinshoujou's best warriors probably comparable to Rokuomi. Gyou'Un would have to share the burden of slaying both Tou and Ouki really, and I'm not sure he is capable of that in 1 battle. Fighting just one of these guys would end with him being seriously wounded, best case scenario.

It's not a huge martial advantage, but it does favor the Ouki Army.

Overall

Numbers-Ouki (slight)
Tactics-Rinshoujou (slight)
Martial Might-Ouki

The Ouki Army takes this one at a very extreme diff. Tbh they probably would not be able to slay Rinshoujou himself, I don't think any of Ouki's tactics would actually be able to put Rinshoujou in a position where he himself would be slain, he'd probably just retreat or surrender when he realized that his defeat was inevitable.
 
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#4
@Dark Admiral I respect the Rinshoujou hype lol, but in this matchup, I have to go with Lips-Sama himself. Ouki, at the height of his strength (Bayou) is legit one of the strongest Generals of all time. It is essentially not a fair matchup, we are comparing a Rinshoujou who died before he could reach his peak, to an Ouki who outlived every one of the Qin 6 and probably experienced more battlefields than any top tier General ever because of this.

Let's break this down:

Okay so first off, Army Size:
I think I've tended to disregard army size in this tournament, and the size of your army is really only relevant to attrition warfare. We've seen smaller armies defeat bigger armies pretty consistently in Kingdom. Here, Ouki has 180K and Rinshoujou has 160K. That's a pretty negligible difference imo but it is at least a very minor advantage to the Qin.

Next up, Tactics:
So, Rinshoujou and his army are going to have the tactical advantage. As someone who reached the rank of Three Great Heavens with only his tactical acumen, Rinshoujou should have the edge over Ouki who reached the rank of Qin 6 based both on his tactics and fighting ability.

However, here's the thing: I don't actually think Rinshoujou is really capable of anything that would throw Ouki off. Even against the Godboku himself, Riboku could not actually deceive or fool Ouki. With pretty much no information to go off of, Ouki had deduced Riboku's grand plan and the existence of an entirely separate army, just based on the way his enemies retreated. While I do think Rinshoujou will be one of the tactical "gods" of this manga, I think it's undeniable that Riboku is superior to him, and yet even Riboku himself was not truly able to deceive Ouki.

However, not being able to trick Ouki doesn't mean he can't be outplayed. Riboku could not trick Ouki but he most certainly did force Ouki into the most un-ideal situation possible in order to slay him. Can Rinshoujou outplay Ouki in this manner?

Again, I'm not so sure. The only reason Ouki was forced into this position against Riboku was because of Moubu's own blunders. So long as none of Ouki's generals make a similar mistake (and I doubt they would for reasons I won't elaborate on here), then Rinshoujou should not actually be capable of tactically outplaying Ouki.

A very minor tactical advantage to Rinshoujou.

Martial Might:
The Ouki Army has a more clear advantage here.

The Rinshoujou Army has Gyou'Un, who's offensive abilities (including his own fighting strength) are Great General Level. Gyou'Un is one of the top tier manly men in this manga. Other than Gyou'Un, Rinshoujou's Ten Heroes are probably very strong, as it was stated that his subordinates held the Martial Burden of the Rinshoujou Army as he himself could not. Chou Garyuu, if I had to directly compare him to someone, I'd say he could be a bit stronger than Rokuomi, but not by much, and if I had to guess about how strong the rest of the Ten Heroes were, I'd say somewhere around Chou Garyuu level.

Now, the Ouki Army. First up, Ouki himself. I'm pretty sure I don't even need to say anything, just the mere mention of succulent lips themselves should remind you all how strong of a warrior this guy is. There is a legitimate case to be made that Ouki is the strongest warrior in Kingdom History. Great General Tier, most assuredly lol. Tou's fighting ability is still pretty mysterious, but what's certain is that he himself can certainly fight on the level of the strongest warriors in the manga. He crushed Rinbukun convincingly and showed no weakness against Ranbihaku of Wei, who seems like quite a savage and strong warrior. Rokuomi again is probably Chou Garyuu level, and the rest of Ouki's subordinates are probably close to Rokuomi martially.

The main advantage that the Ouki Army has is Ouki Himself. If we high-ball Gyou'Un, and I mean truly high-ball him, we could say that he is equal to Ouki is a warrior. If we low ball Gyou'Un however, then we can say that he is pretty close but ultimately inferior to Ouki. And that's about all we need to say really.

Best case scenario for the Rinshoujou Army, they have 1 guy equal to Ouki, with Rinshoujou's best warriors probably comparable to Rokuomi. Gyou'Un would have to share the burden of slaying both Tou and Ouki really, and I'm not sure he is capable of that in 1 battle. Fighting just one of these guys would end with him being seriously wounded, best case scenario.

It's not a huge martial advantage, but it does favor the Ouki Army.

Overall

Numbers-Ouki (slight)
Tactics-Rinshoujou (slight)
Martial Might-Ouki

The Ouki Army takes this one at a very extreme diff. Tbh they probably would not be able to slay Rinshoujou himself, I don't think any of Ouki's tactics would actually be able to put Rinshoujou in a position where he himself would be slain, he'd probably just retreat or surrender when he realized that his defeat was inevitable.
You really want to neg diff my man in the poll..:catcry:
You forgot about the Ten Spears though. I agree that none of the RSJ army is capable of slaying the man himself. RSJ was put above Renpa (not martially) by the King himself. There was that interesting story I read somewhere about them and RSJ’s personality.
 

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Unto Greater Heights
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#5
You really want to neg diff my man in the poll..:catcry:
You forgot about the Ten Spears though. I agree that none of the RSJ army is capable of slaying the man himself. RSJ was put above Renpa (not martially) by the King himself. There was that interesting story I read somewhere about them and RSJ’s personality.
I think if Rinshoujou would have lived as long as Renpa, he’d have been considered a greater general. Rinshoujou really should’ve been given Kingship over Zhao. But fate is a cruel mistress lol.
 
#7
Ii won't go into much Detail, right nw can't. Bt i am slightly leaning towards Rin Shou Jo together with his trusted 10 subordinates i feel like overall he could be the Strongest General.

I mean let's see two of his subordinates, they were power punch and impressed me much, unless the rest of em were a level below em, i see em having better chances of Victory.

In Strategies Rin Shou Jo gets tje advantage, in the flashback as well he dictated the battle acc to his will so they could talk. Ofcrs Ouki also must have realised the plan and agreed to it, bt this guy wasn't a Martial one, he became Zhou Great 3 based on his Mind alone so i dont think anyone really gonna challenge this claim.

Only real uncertainty in this battle is Ouki himself, Rin Shou Jo two trusted subordinates will have to take on Ouki at same time to finish him off.

I think i am not as impressed by Ouki Generals as much, besides Tou n Roku omi. Hence i lean towards Zhou General victory.
 

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Unto Greater Heights
.
#8
You forgot about the Ten Spears though.
I think the Raigoku would be utilized at some point, if Rinshoujou and Gyou’Un specifically created that tactic to slay the Qin 6, then there’s no way they wouldn’t attempt to use it here. But with the Raigoku comes some questions:

1. Would Ouki fall for such a tactic to begin with? Maybe. It was stated that the Raigoku revolves around using Gyou’Un’s Instincts to trap the target, but can Gyou’Un trick Ouki in this manner? I think it’s hit or miss tbh. Ouhon knew something was up when Garyuu and Gyou’Un were setting up the Raigoku but he didn’t retreat, perhaps from inexperience?

I think it’s highly probable that when Ouki realizes that his path of retreat is being cut off, he will realize that he’s being trapped and will probably just straight up charge at whoever is cutting off his escape (let’s just say Garyuu in the instance) and slay them. Maybe Tou even reads this and charges from whatever battle he is in to assist Ouki, but perhaps RSJ predicts this and cuts Tou off and/or prepares a retreat trap that can hold Ouki long enough for Gyou’Un to encircle him. Tough to say. Lol

2. Even if the Ten Spears and the Big G encircle Ouki, will the Raigoku even work on him? Ouhon was able to escape the Raigoku with outside help, should we then assume that Ouki can escape as well? I think once again it’s anyone’s guess whether or not the Raigoku actually works in slaying Ouki, but the most likely chance imo is that Ouki escapes.
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
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#9
I don't think the 8 other ten heroes are as strong as Gyou'un or Chou Ga Ryun.

Imagine having 10 guy as strong as them with a mind like RSJ (97-99 intelligence I bet) no armies can compare.

the HK were all balanced and almost equally strong and dangerous but they are "only" 4. For all other generals who have numerous generals the talents and might decrease : Akou is the best, then Makou is good but less good, then Denrimi etc.
Tou is insane, Rokuomi is very good, then it decrease.

And Gyou'un and Chou Ga Ryuu were know as the blade and the shield of RSJ and the only two who decided to wait with him so likely his two best vassals and closest. The rest were likely weaker than them.

About the battle itself i give the small edge to OuKi : first RSJ died young, he is and will forever be the Phantasmal general : people will always wonder what he could have achieved if he had not died. But OuKi had decades on the battlefield, experience, wins, defeats, he lost people etc = weight.

I don't think RSJ is that much smarter than Ouki. But Ouki has experience.
And RSJ cannot attack himself while OuKi is a monster.

Gyou'un even if I give him the benefit of the doubt cannot defeat OuKi. OuKi is one of the strongest ever with tons of weight and skills. Gyou won't be fodderized but he won't win this.

Instinct can be hard to deal with but Gyou is not Duke Hyou either.

And I think Tou is a shade stronger than them too. And for me Tou is better than Chou Ga Ryuu tactical wise too.

i think that the two heads of the Qin army will give them the win.
 
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#10
Ii won't go into much Detail, right nw can't. Bt i am slightly leaning towards Rin Shou Jo together with his trusted 10 subordinates i feel like overall he could be the Strongest General.

I mean let's see two of his subordinates, they were power punch and impressed me much, unless the rest of em were a level below em, i see em having better chances of Victory.

In Strategies Rin Shou Jo gets tje advantage, in the flashback as well he dictated the battle acc to his will so they could talk. Ofcrs Ouki also must have realised the plan and agreed to it, bt this guy wasn't a Martial one, he became Zhou Great 3 based on his Mind alone so i dont think anyone really gonna challenge this claim.

Only real uncertainty in this battle is Ouki himself, Rin Shou Jo two trusted subordinates will have to take on Ouki at same time to finish him off.

I think i am not as impressed by Ouki Generals as much, besides Tou n Roku omi. Hence i lean towards Zhou General victory.
:akaman:couldn't explain better myself. But yeah, Ouki is a true wild card here.
About Rin Shou Jo;
Imagine much can someone as cool headed as him will contribute in the battlefield-:brootea:
 
#11
Yo I legit don't think Kanou and etc were Ouki's OGs. Rather the dudes here were:




They were important enough to have even comment on how they looked:


Where as Rinbou/Roku/Kanou/etc all dress pretty typical military attires.


Now in the flashback with Rinshoujou the ones shown were the commanders like Rinbou and etc. But that might've been after his OGs got killed off or something in a big war maybe. Which would make sense, seeing as the experience of Rinbou and etc is only at B. And even Tou (who only had A) I doubt was an OG, but def. before any of the current commanders.

Because if you look at HSU for example. Sosui was at C level experience just like Shin, but progressed to B level experience along with Shin. Kyoukai doing the same. (Same probably applies to En-san too, not sure when his last stat update was).

This also leaves them room for improvement for them under Tou who has taken over as the leader for the previous Ouki Commanders. And would also explain why these underlings of his aren't all that spectacular compared to the likes of the 4 heavenly Kings and such.


With that said though, addressing this topic:

Dealing with Tou & Ouki is just too much, unless we're limiting Tou to the assistant role. If Tou is allowed to lead a huge army on his own from the army given to Ouki, this is just too much. You'd essentially need to pair Gyou'un & Chougouryuu to balance out Tou, but that leaves the other commanders, some of them having stats going into the 90s in certain categories, so they're not all that incompetent.
 
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