Great Generals Tournament, Winners R2 - Round 2

[Lee Ba Shou]

These matchups are getting tougher and tougher as we go on! Lol

Rules:
-Some of the Generals featured in this tournament have only hype and no feats, so just vote based on who you think would win based on whatever reasoning you feel!
-You MUST vote in the poll for your vote to count!
-Discussion is of course always welcome but keep it civil. Feel free to try and persuade each other why the General you feel is stronger overall would win.

Round 2 - Winners R2

The loser of this bout will head to Losers R3, bypassing Losers R2 which will take place after this bracket. The Winner of these bouts proceeds to Winners Semi-Finals.

Ren Pa

-Renpa has a 150,000 man Zhao Army
-Subordinate Generals: The Four Heavenly Kings

Spoiler

Leader: Kai Shi Bou

Rin Ko

Gen Pou

Kyou En

VERSUS

Ko Shou

-Ko Shou has a Qin Army of 150,000 men
-Subordinate Generals/Commanders:
Shou Hei Kun (who has 1,000 of his Black Cavalry Corps lead by Hyou Shiga), Kai Oku, Mou Ki.

Spoiler

Location: Rui Plains (Sanyou Campaign)

Spoiler

Scenario: Ren Pa begins on the Wei Side. Ko Shou begins on the Qin side.
War to slay the opposing commander or force them to surrender by any means necessary. Literally any strategy or lack-there-of is allowed. If you think one of the Generals would permanently retreat, count that as a loss for that General.

Who Wins and Why?

Spoiler

@Owl Ki @Blackbeard @Patryipe @Bullet @Dark Admiral @ShinmenTakezo @Den_Den_Mushi @Guan Yu @Dovahkiin @Greenbeard @DizzyBrows @PuckTheGreat @MarineHQ62 @NeutralWatcher @RayanOO @Ninjashadow0209 @Arara @Hiragaro @Yo Tan Wa @Xione

 

[Patryipe]

Who's killing Renpa here exactly?

I don't even know if they can kill Rinko!

Plus Renpa is also a hybrid general who can counter God-like strategies with instincts.

Renpa for the win.

 

[Blackbeard]

While Koshou/his student combination is overpowered, they're still not enough here with equal numbers to topple Renpa and 4HK, and Renpa's stats is just too fucking balanced.

Renpa wins

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Who's killing Renpa here exactly?

I don't even know if they can kill Rinko!

The Shou Hei Kun downplay is thicc, my dude is killing Rinko in about one second flat lol. I don't think Rinko pushes SHK as hard as Wategi did.

As for Renpa vs SHK, I see no reason to not put SHK in the same martial tier as Moubu, literally every piece of reference we have in the manga for SHK's martial strength (again, not to be mistaken for his brute strength) puts him as being on par with Moubu as a warrior.

So a fight between him and Renpa would go either way.

 

[Blackbeard]

While Koshou/his student combination is overpowered, they're still not enough here with equal numbers to topple Renpa and 4HK, and Renpa's stats is just too fucking balanced.

Renpa wins

I will return later to give a detailed answer for this round though, just caught up with Sanyou in my 9999 reread, lol.

 

[Patryipe]

The Shou Hei Kun downplay is thicc, my dude is killing Rinko in about one second flat lol. I don't think Rinko pushes SHK as hard as Wategi did.

As for Renpa vs SHK, I see no reason to not put SHK in the same martial tier as Moubu, literally every piece of reference we have in the manga for SHK's martial strength (again, not to be mistaken for his brute strength) puts him as being on par with Moubu as a warrior.

So a fight between him and Renpa would go either way.

Renpa vs SHK goes to Renpa 100 out of 100.

Stop with this nonsense about martial strength like there is people doing ninja shit that allows them to get around powerhouses like Renpa.

Renpa loses only against Moubu, Kanmei and Ouki. Gaimou would have a shot and lose. Everyone else dies miserably.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Renpa vs SHK goes to Renpa 100 out of 100.

Stop with this nonsense about martial strength like there is people doing ninja shit that allows them to get around powerhouses like Renpa.

Renpa loses only against Moubu, Kanmei and Ouki. Gaimou would have a shot and lose. Everyone else dies miserably.

You do know that the current strongest 1v1 character in the manga is a 15 year old girl with 0 muscle mass right?

Yeah, greater martial skill is highly relevant in a manga like this. Just look at this:

Hey, what's that? The greater martial skill prevailed against the greater brute force? I don't understand, I thought martial skill was a myth that didn't exist?

What about this:

I don't understand, Kyou Kai doesn't have any muscle mass to speak of, but she's doing ninja shit and bodying the strongest character in the Manga (while she herself was wounded)

HEy, what's happening here? The greater martial skill defeating the stronger brute? (For those speed reading, Ouhon literally uses Gyou'Un's own brute force against him by channeling the momentum of Gyou'Un's strike into a counter attack which he then uses to stab the big G himself.)

I don't understand, I thought martial skill was a myth? Do you mean to tell me that the almost infinite number of people who said Shou Hei Kun = Moubu weren't lying after all? What is the meaning of this?

Yeah, I've been civil with you on every other thread, but if you mean to insult Shou Hei Kun with bullshit logic, I'm going to call it as it is. You are a damn clown with no clue what you are actually talking about. Shou Hei Kun low diffs the absolute fuck out of Rinko, and a match between him and Renpa goes 50/50 being very generous, but realistically Shouheikun has been consistently compared to the stronger character Moubu and thus Renpa would be lucky to go 50/50 with Shouheikun.

Also, just to add salt, Houken bodies Moubu. Look at Houken as he gives absolutely 0 fucks about Moubu and doesn't consider him worth his time at all:

Come at me bro. Shouheikun is going to use greater martial skill to mercilessly body half of the characters you think can push him to mid diff.

 

[Dark Admiral]

Ko Shou is a strategist god of Qin and maybe of overall China. He rose to the GG greatness with his peer strategy alone. I’m pretty sure he can come up with the strategy to overpower Renpa and his HK. With SHK who was said to be as stronger as Moubu if not the strongest along with his own GG worthy strategy brain, Qin is taking this victory with high diff.

 

[Patryipe]

You do know that the current strongest 1v1 character in the manga is a 15 year old girl with 0 muscle mass right?

Yeah, greater martial skill is highly relevant in a manga like this. Just look at this:

Hey, what's that? The greater martial skill prevailed against the greater brute force? I don't understand, I thought martial skill was a myth that didn't exist?

What about this:

I don't understand, Kyou Kai doesn't have any muscle mass to speak of, but she's doing ninja shit and bodying the strongest character in the Manga (while she herself was wounded)

HEy, what's happening here? The greater martial skill defeating the stronger brute? (For those speed reading, Ouhon literally uses Gyou'Un's own brute force against him by channeling the momentum of Gyou'Un's strike into a counter attack which he then uses to stab the big G himself.)

I don't understand, I thought martial skill was a myth? Do you mean to tell me that the almost infinite number of people who said Shou Hei Kun = Moubu weren't lying after all? What is the meaning of this?

Yeah, I've been civil with you on every other thread, but if you mean to insult Shou Hei Kun with bullshit logic, I'm going to call it as it is. You are a damn clown with no clue what you are actually talking about. Shou Hei Kun low diffs the absolute fuck out of Rinko, and a match between him and Renpa goes 50/50 being very generous, but realistically Shouheikun has been consistently compared to the stronger character Moubu and thus Renpa would be lucky to go 50/50 with Shouheikun.

Also, just to add salt, Houken bodies Moubu. Look at Houken as he gives absolutely 0 fucks about Moubu and doesn't consider him worth his time at all:

Come at me bro. Shouheikun is going to use greater martial skill to mercilessly body half of the characters you think can push him to mid diff.

Am I supposed to answer this?

Talking about apex predators like Moubu, Kanmei, Ouki and Renpa who have excellent technique and superhuman strenght through kingdom's version of nakama power aka "weight".

>>> Brings in scrub general Mougu who's literally being mocked by Renpa 'cause he can't even swing a glaive properly.

Did I put a retarted brute like Rankai along with Mobu & Co. just because of his brute strenght?

>>> Brings in Kyuokai who's suffered two defeats against Houken despite her magic.

Ok bro!

>>> Brings in Gyou'un who's using his non dominat arm

Great. Where's Gyou'un in the list above?

>>> Gets triggered because Moubu v. SHK is gonna be like Duke Hyou vs. Gokei so tries to trigger me bringing in Houken who is considered a failure by Riboku in manga canon.

Ok, whatever.

Renpa is an elite among elites

 

[Dark Admiral]

There are other ways to slay stronger than you opponent without having to face them directly. How else did Ko Shou, a pure strategist rose to the height of GG. Zhao s 3GH, Wei’s FD and Qin’s 6 are all equals in terms of overall battle feats. And SHK is surely smarter than the HKs strategist Genpo and Stronger than KaiShibo.
It will be a hard fought battle.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Am I supposed to answer this?

Talking about apex predators like Moubu, Kanmei, Ouki and Renpa who have excellent technique and superhuman strenght through kingdom's version of nakama power aka "weight".

>>> Brings in scrub general Mougu who's literally being mocked by Renpa 'cause he can't even swing a glaive properly.

Did I put a retarted brute like Rankai along with Mobu & Co. just because of his brute strenght?

>>> Brings in Kyuokai who's suffered two defeats against Houken despite her magic.

Ok bro!

>>> Brings in Gyou'un who's using his non dominat arm

Great. Where's Gyou'un in the list above?

>>> Gets triggered because Moubu v. SHK is gonna be like Duke Hyou vs. Gokei so tries to trigger me bringing in Houken who is considered a failure by Riboku in manga canon.

Ok, whatever.

Renpa is an elite among elites

Wow bro. I’m impressed. You managed to move the goal posts so hard that I can’t even see them anymore lmfao. Congrats.

You-“stop with this martial bullshit!”

Me-“but Renpa literally had less brute power than Mougou and only won because of his martial advantage.”

You-“Mougou couldn’t even swing a Glaive properly, his martial skill was lacking, therefore my original argument stands!”



Me-“Kyoukai, despite having almost 0 brute power, brutally wounded the strongest character in the manga while she herself was exhausted and wounded.”

You-“but Kyoukai lost the fight, therefore there is no such thing as martial skill in fights!”



Me-“Ouhon slayed the physically far superior Gyou’Un using martial skill, not brute power.”

You-“but Gyou’Un used his non-dominant arm (which disproves nothing) therefore martial skill doesn’t count!!”



Yeah sorry bro, that was the shittiest attempt at a response I’ve ever seen lol. There is literally 0 logical reason to think Shouheikun is not in the same tier as every other top tier warrior in this manga. Only a complete idiot would disagree.

Also, dozens of men fired arrows at Houken all at the same time, and he deflected all of them and repelled them back at the people who fired them while Moubu got wounded by fodder arrows at Bayou lol. No wonder Houken considers people like Kyou and Kyoukai (100% martial skill) a worthy matchup but laughs at bitchass Moubu lmfao, Houken would mid diff the shit out of a one trick brute like Moubu.

 

[Patryipe]

Wow bro. I’m impressed. You managed to move the goal posts so hard that I can’t even see them anymore lmfao. Congrats.

You-“stop with this martial bullshit!”

Me-“but Renpa literally had less brute power than Mougou and only won because of his martial advantage.”

You-“Mougou couldn’t even swing a Glaive properly, his martial skill was lacking, therefore my original argument stands!”



Me-“Kyoukai, despite having almost 0 brute power, brutally wounded the strongest character in the manga while she herself was exhausted and wounded.”

You-“but Kyoukai lost the fight, therefore there is no such thing as martial skill in fights!”



Me-“Ouhon slayed the physically far superior Gyou’Un using martial skill, not brute power.”

You-“but Gyou’Un used his non-dominant arm (which disproves nothing) therefore martial skill doesn’t count!!”



Yeah sorry bro, that was the shittiest attempt at a response I’ve ever seen lol. There is literally 0 logical reason to think Shouheikun is not in the same tier as every other top tier warrior in this manga. Only a complete idiot would disagree.

Also, dozens of men fired arrows at Houken all at the same time, and he deflected all of them and repelled them back at the people who fired them while Moubu got wounded by fodder arrows at Bayou lol. No wonder Houken considers people like Kyou and Kyoukai (100% martial skill) a worthy matchup but laughs at bitchass Moubu lmfao, Houken would mid diff the shit out of a one trick brute like Moubu.

Me

"You don't slay Renpa in a duel with ninja triques"

You

"Shows Kyoukai losing against Houken"
"I am right!"

Ok!

You also keep using Houken who's literally the best proof for my point. He's hands down the most talented glaive wielder of the manga, doing stuff that nobody else can even dream of and yet he can't get past Ouki's weight.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Me

"You don't slay Renpa in a duel with ninja triques"

You

"Shows Kyoukai losing against Houken"
"I am right!"

Ok!

You also keep using Houken who's literally the best proof for my point. He's hands down the most talented glaive wielder of the manga, doing stuff that nobody else can even dream of and yet he can't get past Ouki's weight.

I don’t even know what you’re saying now lol, straw manning the mess out of me left and right.

Renpa was straight up stated to be in the same strength tier as Kaishibou and Bananji with almost no doubter evidence to this point, but you’re the one shoving him in a completely separate tier from everyone else who the canon has stated he’s comparable in strength to.

Shouheikun has never, not once in this entire manga, shown even a hint of himself being anything less than equal to the other top tier warriors in this manga aside from himself elevating Moubu above himself, which is nullified by the fact that Moubu openly stated he was stronger than Ouki but didn’t challenge Saitaku when Saitaku stated that he (Moubu) was weaker than Shouheikun.

You have arbitrarily decided that Shouheikun is weaker than the other top tier warriors based on almost nothing. If you wanted to make the case that SHK considers himself weaker than Moubu, you would at least be saying something half-comprehensible (still wrong but better than your current nonsense) but you aren’t, you’re straight up putting Renpa in an entirely separate tier than the tier has placed him in, right next to Kaishibou and Bananji, weaker than Moubu and Shouheikun.

I wouldn’t be so tilted by this if you hadn’t said that Shouheikun couldn’t slay fucking Rinko lmfao, which literally belongs in the top 3 most retarded things I’ve ever seen on the internet.

 

[Patryipe]

Renpa was straight up stated to be in the same strength tier as Kaishibou and Bananji with almost no doubter evidence to this point, but you’re the one shoving him in a completely separate tier from everyone else who the canon has stated he’s comparable in strength to.

Yes, precisely.

In a duel I literally put Moubu, Kanmei, Ouki and Renpa above everyone else and separated from them.

I believe the combination of their technique, natural strength and especially great general weight makes the unbeatable for the rest, more so if you face them without having the full package.

Houken was clearly above everyone in terms of technique, probably even in terms of natural strength. But he lacked weight, so he couldn't pass Ouki.

Bananji and Kaishibou. Zero problem of having them with the same of natural strength of Renpa. How would I expect a duel between them and Renpa to go? Renpa wins all the time because he has way more weight.

Regarding SHK. He might well have a finely honed glaive technique, remarkable physical strenght... And not enough weight. This is a guy who is spending the prime of his career in a building coming up with strategies instead of being on the battlefield. He would never get past the weight of a guy who breathes the stench of dead bodies to live.

[Yes of course they can be slain if overwhelmed with numbers, using one of the ten bows... But we were talking about a 1v1 duel here]

That's how I see it.

 

[Dark Admiral]

totally off topic but;

literally belongs in the top 3 most retarded things I’ve ever seen on the internet.

I wanna know more about top 2.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Yes, precisely.

In a duel I literally put Moubu, Kanmei, Ouki and Renpa above everyone else and separated from them.

I believe the combination of their technique, natural strength and especially great general weight makes the unbeatable for the rest, more so if you face them without having the full package.

Houken was clearly above everyone in terms of technique, probably even in terms of natural strength. But he lacked weight, so he couldn't pass Ouki.

Bananji and Kaishibou. Zero problem of having them with the same of natural strength of Renpa. How would I expect a duel between them and Renpa to go? Renpa wins all the time because he has way more weight.

Regarding SHK. He might well have a finely honed glaive technique, remarkable physical strenght... And not enough weight. This is a guy who is spending the prime of his career in a building coming up with strategies instead of being on the battlefield. He would never get past the weight of a guy who breathes the stench of dead bodies to live.

[Yes of course they can be slain if overwhelmed with numbers, using one of the ten bows... But we were talking about a 1v1 duel here]

That's how I see it.

I don’t think this is valid to dismiss Shouheikun’s strength. You can point to a lot of top tier warriors within Kingdom and use one thing or another to dismiss their strength.

Ouki has been largely inactive since King Sho died, he really hasn’t lead any major campaigns for the Qin, and mostly seems to have fought on a smaller scale.

Renpa was straight up retired for 3 years before Sanyou (on top of already being pretty old).

Gyou’Un and Chou Garth remained largely inactive until Shukai Plains.

Earl Shi and Gaimou we’re locked in prison for 14 years, but both were stated to be stronger after their release.

None of these are relevant cases to dismiss the strength of these characters, and neither is Shouheikun’s foray into politics. I’m going to remind you of how strong Shouheikun is perceived to be:

^Moubu shouting with extreme confidence that he is stronger than Ouki and Renpa, and yet:

^Moubu struck completely silent at the idea of himself being stronger than Shouheikun.

And just in case it wasn’t made clear eno

Moubu outright states that he would crush Ouki (lol) after having remained completely silent at the idea of Shouheikun being stronger than himself.

This is how freaking insane SHK’s unknown feats are. He’s actually one of the more underrated kingdom characters. There really is no good reason to put even people like Ouki/Renpa/Moubu above him just yet.

 

[Patryipe]

I don’t think this is valid to dismiss Shouheikun’s strength. You can point to a lot of top tier warriors within Kingdom and use one thing or another to dismiss their strength.

Ouki has been largely inactive since King Sho died, he really hasn’t lead any major campaigns for the Qin, and mostly seems to have fought on a smaller scale.

Renpa was straight up retired for 3 years before Sanyou (on top of already being pretty old).

Gyou’Un and Chou Garth remained largely inactive until Shukai Plains.

Earl Shi and Gaimou we’re locked in prison for 14 years, but both were stated to be stronger after their release.

None of these are relevant cases to dismiss the strength of these characters, and neither is Shouheikun’s foray into politics. I’m going to remind you of how strong Shouheikun is perceived to be:

^Moubu shouting with extreme confidence that he is stronger than Ouki and Renpa, and yet:

^Moubu struck completely silent at the idea of himself being stronger than Shouheikun.

And just in case it wasn’t made clear eno

Moubu outright states that he would crush Ouki (lol) after having remained completely silent at the idea of Shouheikun being stronger than himself.

This is how freaking insane SHK’s unknown feats are. He’s actually one of the more underrated kingdom characters. There really is no good reason to put even people like Ouki/Renpa/Moubu above him just yet.

It's a legit argument considering that weight has been important since the first major war and is the essence of a true Great General of the Heavens.

It's why Gokei could swing around the Duke for a while despite being a joke compared to him until Duke Hyou decided to end it.
It's why Houken couldn't not get past Ouki despite being better than him at everything.
It's why Gekishin, who had zero weight due to him being a mercenary was treated like trash by Houken that clearly felt something was amiss compared to Ouki.
It's why Choutou could overcome poison until he disposed of another trash like Seikai.
It's why Riboku, who's carrying the entire Zhao on his shoulder would demolish a guy of only cares about himself like Ousen.
It's why Moubu himself before Bayou was nothing but a mini Houken that would've been tossed around like an idiot by Ouki & Co. and was ignored by Houken that was looking for a true Great General of the Heavens and not a cocky brute.

Heck, Houken himself is the best explanation of this. His entire character is about showing how even if you are the strongest, best martial artist ever you still cannot overcome the weight of a true Great General of the Heavens. I'll repeat. What Houken was doing with his glaive was insane. Literally nobody else even comes close. As a martial artist the gap between Houken and everyone else was as big as it gets. How did that work out for him in the end? It did not. Kingdom does not work that way.

Ouki and Renpa might have been retired, but they didn't loose what they picked up while roaring over the battlefield in their primes. They are literally the survivors of the Golden Era. SHK on the on the other hand is spending his prime in a building. Whatever weight he has picked up in his youth is not comparable.

 

[Shanks]

SHK definitely got strength and tactics to remove two or three HK of Renpa army but in the mean time Renpa can reach enemy's HQ and even slay there commander.


This outcome can only change if Koushou has subordinate generals like RSJ otherwise Renpa and his HK are going to take this.

Though Qin forces can still put Renpa army to extreme diff due to two legendary level strategist of Qin state.

 

[Shanks]

SHK underestimation is damn high here. Lol

I can't believe if anyone other than MouBu could defeat him in that era. Btw even for MouBu, it wouldn't be any less than extreme diff. Based on one shot or history, SHK could destroy anyone in opposition here either that's Renpa or his HK in duels.
Even for MouBu it would be 4 out 10 times against SHK.


EoS main villain is actually a monster here whether related to brute strength or tactics or background (prince of Chu).

:cheers:

 

[FaradaySloth]

I accidentally selected Renpa, my bad.
Either way Renpa is going up against two of the best strategists (excluding the two poppas in the current arc) in the series, if we're talking about who would win in a battle, obviously the Qin side. Koshou is hyped up to be a strategist god, while SHK outsmarted Chu by giving Moubu a small lesson. SHK is also one of the best duelists in Kingdom as well.
The only way I see Renpa winning here is if he goes straight for Koshou. Rinko gets killed again and Genpou, while being a great tactician himself, also fails since he's an old fart who got outsmarted by Kanki.