Character Discussion I'll say it: Did Oda ruin Sanji ?

Did Oda ruin Sanji ?


  • Total voters
    170
#23
Well, the way I see it, Oda had two options

a) he could make Sanji reach heights his shit family couldn’t even dream of, through his own powers like Haki and things he learned from Zeff and Ivankov, people who actually cared about him

or

b) he could make Sanji reach heights his shit family couldn’t even dream of, but having to rely on the experiments of said shit family, making me wonder if Judge did have a point about him being a failure after all.

Can’t really fathom why he went for option b, I know it’s a kamen rider reference but it doesn’t half leave a bad taste in the mouth. It’s literally all thanks to Judge and Niji that Sanji isn’t dead right now. The justification being “Sanji still has his emotions so Judge was wrong” and “science is the power of mankind” isn’t really enough to answer my distaste for the whole thing.

Also doesn’t help how boring and one-dimensional the Vinsmokes are. If you’re going to have Sanji struggle with his family heritage, you have to at least make that family slightly interesting and not card-carrying villains. The only slightly interesting thing Judge has ever done is cry at the Tea Party.
 

Chrono

Symbol of Despair
.
#24
Carried him how ? Mihawks not fighting for him that's power he's trained. Training your power doesn't come for free by putting on a suit.
Is Judge fighting for Sanji ? And the Exo-Skeleton wasnt free, he had to go through the stress of everything in Onigashma to unlock it. Anyways non of this matters. Your point is that Sanji is benefitting from something that he hates. Whilst Zoro is benefitting from something worse. Man was taught how to fight by the person he wants to surpass, because he wouldnt get to that lvl any other way. Dont matter if its training or not. Without Mihawk, Zoro would be nothing,
 

Chrono

Symbol of Despair
.
#26
Well, the way I see it, Oda had two options

a) he could make Sanji reach heights his shit family couldn’t even dream of, through his own powers like Haki and things he learned from Zeff and Ivankov, people who actually cared about him

or

b) he could make Sanji reach heights his shit family couldn’t even dream of, but having to rely on the experiments of said shit family, making me wonder if Judge did have a point about him being a failure after all.

Can’t really fathom why he went for option b, I know it’s a kamen rider reference but it doesn’t half leave a bad taste in the mouth. It’s literally all thanks to Judge and Niji that Sanji isn’t dead right now. The justification being “Sanji still has his emotions so Judge was wrong” and “science is the power of mankind” isn’t really enough to answer my distaste for the whole thing.

Also doesn’t help how boring and one-dimensional the Vinsmokes are. If you’re going to have Sanji struggle with his family heritage, you have to at least make that family slightly interesting and not card-carrying villains. The only slightly interesting thing Judge has ever done is cry at the Tea Party.
Why would Judge be right of Sanji being a failure..,.If he reached a height he couldnt with his own plan. There was no narrative of Sanji surpassing them in strength. It was always about Sanji’s Emotions vs Vinsmokes being Emotionless.
 
#27
Sanji is just sad now.

Pre-TS Sanji was a man of passion whose strength came from his emotions and his ability to overcome great obstacles through strength of character and quick thinking.

Now Sanji has been watered down into a dumb, test tube baby whose daddy is responsible for all of his improvements.

It was bad enough when Sanji did a heel turn when first using the Raid Suit in a scenario that did not necessitate for it but now Sanji does not even have a choice anymore. This shit is happening to him whether he wants it or not.

Like I said, this is just sad at this point.
 
#28
Is Judge fighting for Sanji ? And the Exo-Skeleton wasnt free, he had to go through the stress of everything in Onigashma to unlock it. Anyways non of this matters. Your point is that Sanji is benefitting from something that he hates. Whilst Zoro is benefitting from something worse. Man was taught how to fight by the person he wants to surpass, because he wouldnt get to that lvl any other way. Dont matter if its training or not. Without Mihawk, Zoro would be nothing,
Yes he is.
Sanjis post skip bounty is 2 boost by judge 1 by luffy
None of his own actions

Sanji on his own back capped at vergo would be dead to queen right now if not for the exoskeleton

An exoskeleton that is only activating cause he put the Raid Suit on another power up given to him by people he hates

Everything he does is from judge.

Mihawk taught zoro haki. He didn't give him haki zoro still uses the same moves as pre skip. He's not using new moves mihawk taught him.
 
#29
Well, the way I see it, Oda had two options

a) he could make Sanji reach heights his shit family couldn’t even dream of, through his own powers like Haki and things he learned from Zeff and Ivankov, people who actually cared about him

or

b) he could make Sanji reach heights his shit family couldn’t even dream of, but having to rely on the experiments of said shit family, making me wonder if Judge did have a point about him being a failure after all.

Can’t really fathom why he went for option b, I know it’s a kamen rider reference but it doesn’t half leave a bad taste in the mouth. It’s literally all thanks to Judge and Niji that Sanji isn’t dead right now. The justification being “Sanji still has his emotions so Judge was wrong” and “science is the power of mankind” isn’t really enough to answer my distaste for the whole thing.

Also doesn’t help how boring and one-dimensional the Vinsmokes are. If you’re going to have Sanji struggle with his family heritage, you have to at least make that family slightly interesting and not card-carrying villains. The only slightly interesting thing Judge has ever done is cry at the Tea Party.
Or he could make Sanji reach heights his shit family couldn’t even dream of because of his emotions/heart the thing that judge hated the most about sanji.
 
#33
I wouldn't say "ruined". It's still Sanji in a lot of ways, like he still goes out on his own to save the day (Mr. Prince vs using Stealth Black two times in Wano), he's still incredibly dependant, and WCI and recent wing theme still showcase him as an incredibly important person to Luffy. But it does feel like he's more way more comedic and not taken as the serious, calm and collected strawhat he used to be. He's not under the spotlight as much, and he went from being a completely normal human who's powers came from his fiery passion, to a genetic experiment.
So his character has evolved in a lot of ways, and I guess some people see it as an improvement, and others see it as a step backwards.
:choppawhat:
 
#35
Or he could make Sanji reach heights his shit family couldn’t even dream of because of his emotions/heart the thing that judge hated the most about sanji.
That’s not what’s making him strong though. The RS doesn’t run on emotion, neither does the exoskeleton.

Dumping both Germa powerups and him relying on DJ/Hell Memories, which Sanji has said run on emotion, would be him getting stronger using the things Judge hated the most.

Whereas right now, if Judge had not experimented on Sanji in the womb, Sanji would be dead or crippled.
Why would Judge be right of Sanji being a failure..,.If he reached a height he couldnt with his own plan. There was no narrative of Sanji surpassing them in strength. It was always about Sanji’s Emotions vs Vinsmokes being Emotionless.
The entire Vinsmoke narrative is about strength. Judge is a warmonger, he wants to conquer the North Blue, he made his children emotionless war machines because he felt it would achieve that aim, he locked up Sanji as a child because he was weak. The lack of emotion is only a means to an end for Judge, and that end is that he wants power.

Sanji having to rely on Vinsmoke tech to be strong enough is, to me, atrocious. No one can convince me otherwise.
 
#38
Is Judge fighting for Sanji ? And the Exo-Skeleton wasnt free, he had to go through the stress of everything in Onigashma to unlock it. Anyways non of this matters. Your point is that Sanji is benefitting from something that he hates. Whilst Zoro is benefitting from something worse. Man was taught how to fight by the person he wants to surpass, because he wouldnt get to that lvl any other way. Dont matter if its training or not. Without Mihawk, Zoro would be nothing,
Bullshit, "taught how to fight by Mihawk", last time I checked Zoro still fights with 3 swords with the same preTS abilities, also Mihawk didnt teach him CoC, again clown stop using weak ass arguments.
 
#39
Problem is, said heart would be a chunky, red paste if not for Judge's unethical science flowing through his veins. Turns out that Sanji needs said tech to improve.
Yes but if Judge didnt quick too dismiss sanji and maybe needed to do the hard work and train sanji and maybe be a good father he would've seen that sanji was goner be his strongest child, to me its about the judges perfect emotionless solider vs human nature.
 
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