Character Discussion I'll say it: Did Oda ruin Sanji ?

Did Oda ruin Sanji ?


  • Total voters
    170
#63
I'm not trying to defend Sanji
But this Power-Up makes Perfect Sense for him & it was decided since Chapter 01

I'm talking from Story perspective here
Oda is following a certain Pattern in deciding Abilities/Power-Ups for each Straw Hat
Something related to their "True Identity" & what they represent

Chopper looking even more like a Pet after Monster Point
Robin turning into a Devil
Brook using his Soul to stop that Weapon Smile
Franky & his Canons
Nami acquiring Zeus
Sanji's New Durability
.... etc

All of these are not Random Abilities/Scenes
Their Role EOS is gonna be Mind-Blowing !
 
#64

Enma's power.


The sword is special and dangerous, more so than it's wielder here.


It's Oden's aura that Kaido is sensing here. Not Zoro's. Enma is specifically emitting a dead's man Haki, basically. It has a power of its own and in the image below you can see - again - that it produce its own aura, which is, as far as I can remember, the first and only time that it happened in the manga. It's also the only sword which somehow can drain the haki of its wielder to make stronger cuts, which is basically "a magic sword".


Regarding Zoro's link with Ryuma, it is obviously extremely relevant. I do not believe he is the heir of the last Daimyo of Ringo, but he's definitively a descendant of Ryuma and Oda pushed the thing far enough that the two are basically look-alike. And when one knows Japanese culture (or pop-culture at least) you knows that it means something, which is basically that Zoro's that strong because of who is ancestors are.

And said ancestor is obviously far stronger than Judge Vinsmoke ever was in that case. We aren't talking about an average strong dude, we're talking a man strong enough that he alone was enough to make the WG back off Wano, at least according to his legend. That's who Zoro is the second coming of. That's why he decapitated a western-style dragon like Ryuma did.

To get back to Sanji, his situation is, just like Zoro, far beyond his control. He didn't choose to be genetically modified before his birth. He didn't ask to be Judge's son, and even today his power-up, unlike Zoro's or Luffy's which are just power-scalling tools, make him question it, himself and what he's becoming, which is all extremely interesting.

Using the RS was bad, the "humor" he had since the TS is trash, but Sanji's current power-up is the most interesting we have seen in the manga so far, because it makes the character who got it question himself, wonder if he'll turn into his worst nightmare. It opens up a trove of possibilities for future stories. What will Enma open as a story tool for Zoro, or Luffy's mastery of CoC ? Basically none or very little once this arc will be over.

For once, Oda took the time to build up this power-up and explain why Sanji isn't just going "Haha, I'm stronger now and I'll kick your ass!" And he even gave him an opponent who knows of Judge and his scientific experiments, while being himself a deadly scientist. He has tied Sanji deeply to MADS, and MADS has been tied to Vegapunk, the greatest genius ever in OP apparently. And MADS was comprised of a man able to create horrible pandemies as a hobby, one who loves to create weapons of mass destruction and one who wants to create the perfect human weapon/army.

Those are all extremely interesting elements which will be picked up in the future, which is great.

To sum up my position : Oda ruined Sanji more because of his pervert jokes than with his power-ups and actions in the post-TS era (save perhaps using the RS in the Flower Capital.
1. First pic is not from the Viz. Nice try tho


The Sword isn't more special than its wielder since Zoro made Enma his bitch and it can't suck his Haki without his permission anymore. Enma listening to his master


Zoro decides what Enma cuts and doesn't cut which means he in complete control of Enma. How about you take time to learn how to read correctly


You are a Judges son fan so its expected you can't really read correctly.

Big Mom says "He cut Kaido Scales"
Kaido says he he gave him a scar.

Also all Zoro swords cut Kaido which is why it says 3 sword style.

SHOW ME ONE PANEL WHERE IT SAYS ITS EMMITING ODEN HAKI. THE MANGA AND VIVECARD SAYS ITS USING ZORO HAKI. LEARN HOW TO READ DUMBASS

:seriously:

All Zoro swords are "Magic Swords" Zoro have called them problem childs and do things without his permission when he first got them. Zoro has to train to master them. Sandai literally cursed so Zoro actually fighting against it all the time. Zoro has to master and train unlike Sanji who gets RS handed to him then he wore RS 3 times and randomly gets a new powerup cause he wore daddy suit.

Zoro not strong cause of his ancestors. He strong cause he the most hardworking guy in the SH crew and his dad was his descendent too yet he not has strong has Zoro. Sabo and his trash brother had the same parents yet Sabo. You sound like idiot. Go reread dumbass






Please Stop your BS. Sanji didn't even train before the damn raid. All he did was wear a suit 3 times and randomly got power because of daddy. Daddy also raised his bounty twoce. Daddy also gave him invisibility. Exoskeleton gives him boost in durability, strength, attack power etc...
 
#67
Hello everyone,
First i will say that i am a Zoro fan but Sanji used to be one my favourite characters in OP and maybe in anime overall.
I think we all agree that Oda's handling of Sanji was generally bad since the timeskip.
He turned up the pervertiness to 100 and gone were the cool unique moments that he used to have each arc. Sanji also turned into a hypetool for some reason.
In PH Sanji was used to hype Vergo. In Dressrosa he was used to hype Doflamingo.

In Zou Sanji left the crew to save them and Zeff from Big Mom which in my opinion was a great moment and very Sanji like.
Then in WCI we had Sanji vs Luffy which was not cool in my book. Sanj also looked weaker/similar to his family instead of proving his superiority to them and had no 1v1.
And Sanji's arc ended with me feeling that Sanji was ... unfulfilled ?

In Wano we had the raid suit which was unpopular among almost everyone because of one reason: it fundamentally changed Sanji.
Sanji had a solid showing against P1 and Drake and was looking to be back to his best.
Then he was used again in that awful Black Maria plot. Why? To stall Zoro's rooftop? To hype Robin?
In Queen's fight he looked capable and strong but then .. DJ is a product from judge ?
I mean that is his signature move, when you remember Sanji you remember Diable Jambe. Now Oda is here to change it after 500 chapters?
The exoskeleton was expected since WCI and it was set up. That's doesn't make it any better. I know he had to find a way to make Sanji stronger but there were 100 ways to do that. He has Sanji himself admit that he hates becoming that thing.

I for one would have LOVED to have Zoro/Sanji hit a wall and realize they need to get stronger for Luffy. So they swallow it up and train each other in their respective strengths: CoA/CoO. But God forbid Oda have the strawhats train haki, he would rather have them running around being useless like Usopp and Nami in this arc.
Oda could have given Sanji more fights and have him develop his Observation to higher standards which should be his strength as per Oda's words.
Now we are stuck with Franky 2.0 but much worse, because Franky at least develops his powers himself but it is looking like almost every power up Sanji had or will have in the future, is solely down to Judge with no input whatsoever from Sanji.

I really don't know why you would fundamentally change one of your most popular characters and give them a 180° after 1000 chapters where Sanji was that really cool guy to turn him into a pseudo cyborg and i can't understand that decision.

This is not a hate thread, if you enjoy Sanji's new developments then i envy you, it means that you enjoy the story more than i do and that's the most important thing after all. I just wanted to rant a little.
It is what it is, I'm tired of complaining about Oda's garbage post-timskip writing, it's not going to change anything.
:josad:
 

Finalbeta

Science Nerd 🌌 🌍 🧬 ⚛️
#69
Well it was not exactly the best choice to me.

I would of preferred if Oda simply shaped up his personality and let him train harder, expecially his haki, rather than granting him this Lunarian modification which seems to stand as the case.
 
#70
Look through everything I've said about the DJ transformation how it connects to his mother and how it would prove judge wrong about sanji being weak because of his emotions, DJ transformation is a evolution of his fire powers he has had for over 600 chapters, so its not just a random powerup.
That is still the same. Doesn't matter how or what he gets... he is getting something just to overcome a plot point. At least if it was something that was introduced in WCI itself where we had the shitty germa plot or at the very least before onigashima. It would be a bit more acceptable(not for me though). This is not nothing new though with oda's shitty way of PUs with luffy...but doesn't mean it makes the other ok.
 
#71
Oda introduced the plot of Sanji with his germa family 200 chapters ago for the sole purpose of making Sanji stronger.

Why? Because Sanji is rly young and the crew is going straight to raftel without more time skips, and in this short period of time Sanji needs to become top tier, because he always fought strong opponents.

Now you can like this plot with germa and exoskeleton or not, it does not matter, Oda already made his mind.
Sanji cant be like Garp, because Garp had many years at his disposal to become strong, Sanji needs to do it in months.

Other people get power ups non stop, Chopper has better drugs now, Nami upgraded herself with zeus, Zolo gets random powerful swords, Luffy keeps advancing in gears and modes from his devil fruit, some of those went form mid shichibukai level to almost yonko tier and probably solid yonko tier at the end of wano, all this in some months.

Sanji? Sanji had almost no PU, and Oda needed to invent something for him, he went in this direction of Sanji having a strong body, that can suit his brawler fighting style. It is what it is. Oda doest care what we thing, Oda does not care if some of you wanted Sanji to be like Garp, because this is imposible at this point in story, where Luffys crew needs to become the strongest crew in the world, and to conquer the WG, all while Sanji being 22 yr, Luffy 19yr and so on.

So no, for the trolls and randoms, oda didnt destroyed Sanji, he made this plot for Sanji to become stronger, and thats all.
Sanji came out of time-skip, which was made to prepare the strowhats for the new world, way too weak. He was struggling against his opponents since Fishman island arc when he tag-teamed with Jinbe to defeat Wadatsumi, then the famous leg breaking moment with Vergo, and then Sanji failed to break a simple door, which Franky and Kinemon had no problem of dealing with. Sanji came out of timskip unprepared unlike the rest of the strowhats who didn't really struggle against anyone, with exception of the weak trio obviously, while Sanji kept struggling against every aponnent he faced. For prospective, Zoro never struggled against anyone in post-timskip until the rooftop fight against Kaido and Big Mom when he the first time used his strongest attack "Ashura," while Sanji was going all out since Fishman island arc but nonetheless he was struggling against every aponnent. But the worst part, is that despite all of that struggle Sanji never did anything, he never upgraded his CoO which should be his strongest haki, he never came up with a new thecnique/attack, he was hopeless and useless to the point of resentment from the fans who kept distancing themselves from that character, combined with constant nose blood and none stop humiliation that resentment turned into pure hate. Now, keep in mind that I was never a Sanji fan so I can openly say it and express my views unlike Sanji fans who will lie to themselves cuz they have to like his character, they have to because it is spoused to be their favorite character. But I liked Sanji's character in pre-timskip, and that makes even more painful to see what has happened to his character, hell, what has happened to the one piece itself.
:josad:
 
#72
I don't think even oda knows what he's doing with Sanji at this point.

He should have just kept Sanji's powerups solely on his kicks, because that is what makes Sanji stand out.

But now Oda is giving Sanji random crap left and right. Oh Sanji wants to peep on ladies? give him raid suit. Oh Sanji is getting beaten up bad because his Armament Haki isn't good enough? Give him Germa genes. And now Oda is hinting that his fire could be related to King's race, even though we already got a second backstory with Sanji and Germa.

I feel like Sanji's power progression has been all over the place Post-Time Skip because Oda doesn't know what to do with him. When you compare Sanji to Luffy and Zoro, their progressions feel much more natural and satisfyingly. Luffy focused on his Gears and Haki mastery, Zoro focused on his sword skills, getting a better quality sword, getting CoC because of his strong will- it all felt natural and expected. Both Luffy and Zoro's power ups were upgrading and perfecting their already existing moves and powers.

Imo Oda could have easily just given Sanji CP9's Tempest Kick and also Might Guy's Pressure Kicks from Naruto, or harden Sanji's legs with Armament Haki. There were so many ways that Oda could have gone to expand on Sanji's fighting that was unique (he's the only character who solely uses his feet to fight).

But none of the power ups that Oda has given Sanji are better than what he started with or already had. Sky Walk was really imo the only upgrade Post-Time Skip that really fit Sanji imo. Before the timeskip, setting his foot on fire was the previous best thing.

Everything after Sky-Walk in Fishman Island: the Raid Suit in WCI, the Genes stuff now in the Wano Arc, it all honestly just feels meh imo, like Oda doesn't have a clear sense of how he wants Sanji to progress.

First Sanji got Invisibility from the Raid Suit, then he got hardened body from Germa Genes. What's next? Lightsabers from Star Wars for EOS Sanji?? Every time Oda gives Sanji a radically new power up that can't be explained by Sanji's pre-existing and established capabilities, it cheapens and undermines Sanji's previous power up and fighting style, powerups that Sanji earned through his own hard work and creativity. Why bother to improve and work hard when you have a sugar daddy to give you a new toy or power-up every time you are in a pinch? What is even worse imo is the fact that neither the Raid Suit nor the Germa genes enhances Sanji's kicks, the one fighting style that was of Sanji's own creation that made him stand out.

I'm curious to know what Sanji is going to be like EOS, because right now 'Black Leg' Sanji is starting to feel more like "Insert Random Superpower" Sanji, and it really isn't my cup of tea.
 

Peroroncino

Alwaystownman.
#74
Sanji came out of time-skip, which was made to prepare the strowhats for the new world, way too weak. He was struggling against his opponents since Fishman island arc when he tag-teamed with Jinbe to defeat Wadatsumi, then the famous leg breaking moment with Vergo, and then Sanji failed to break a simple door, which Franky and Kinemon had no problem of dealing with. Sanji came out of timskip unprepared unlike the rest of the strowhats who didn't really struggle against anyone, with exception of the weak trio obviously, while Sanji kept struggling against every aponnent he faced. For prospective, Zoro never struggled against anyone in post-timskip until the rooftop fight against Kaido and Big Mom when he the first time used his strongest attack "Ashura," while Sanji was going all out since Fishman island arc but nonetheless he was struggling against every aponnent. But the worst part, is that despite all of that struggle Sanji never did anything, he never upgraded his CoO which should be his strongest haki, he never came up with a new thecnique/attack, he was hopeless and useless to the point of resentment from the fans who kept distancing themselves from that character, combined with constant nose blood and none stop humiliation that resentment turned into pure hate. Now, keep in mind that I was never a Sanji fan so I can openly say it and express my views unlike Sanji fans who will lie to themselves cuz they have to like his character, they have to because it is spoused to be their favorite character. But I liked Sanji's character in pre-timskip, and that makes even more painful to see what has happened to his character, hell, what has happened to the one piece itself.
:josad:
lmfao now that you mention it sanji showcased his strongest attack in FI why didn't zoro use asura and luffy KKG back then too?:kobeha:
 
#75
Sanji was a great (albeit perverted) character pre-timeskip. But when WCI & the 'year of Sanji' came about, it ruined him imo. It literally was the worst thing that could've happened to him as a character. And now he's doing 180 on his own "pirate way". Doesn't want the suit.....but takes it. Doesn't want to wear the suit.....but wears. Doesn't want to be a freak/monster like his family....but becomes one (physically at least).

I mean defensively Queen had him finished, to the extent that his bones were mostly all crushed....and boom he can regenerate now. He's about to get cleaved into 2, without being able to dodge....and boom he's become a walking tank. He's now got nothing to worry about defensively against Queen. His strongest attack does not do jack to Queen, who wants to bet that his next upgrade will boost his attack power to finish off a nerfed Queen (getting attacked by his own super weapon? Come now).

Judge has done more to save his Son's life than Zeff will ever do lol.
 
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#77
Before the Raid Suit appeared I was pumped for the exoskeleton, but the narrative made it seem like a bad idea. Judge dislikes Sanji for BOTH weaknesses, his lack of respect for Sanji as a warrior overlooking the fact that he managed to get so strong while starting out so weak and further handicapping himself in fighting.

I was just hoping for a Raid Suit design. The invisibility and other cybernetics were badass. Didn't gel with the fire but that presented the physical aspect of not wearing the suit all the time, where the personal aspect is his disdain.

Giving him tech that permanently alters his body is a weird form of violation. But really, his character needs to nut up and accept these gifts so that he stops getting rolled by intermediate goons
 
#78
No, because the whole Sanji situation revolves around the concept of "You can't run from your past" which is essentially what Sanji has been trying to do since he was a child. At some point he has to fully embrace his past, otherwise he'll never be able to move forward, and it will forever hinder him, more than it would ever benefit him.

Sanji's character has always been the exact opposite of Luffy and Zoro who embrace everything head on. Even in his introduction arc, he didn't want to embrace going after his dream at first. Things like Zeff saving his life, and Judge being his father, with him being born a "failed experiment" has served as nothing more than shackles for him throughout the entire series.

Not surprising certain people dislike this turn of events for Sanji's character, as they would probably rather see him remain shackled, over him embrace what holds him back, so he can finally move forward.
 

Doggo

To find the All Blue!
#79
No, because the whole Sanji situation revolves around the concept of "You can't run from your past" which is essentially what Sanji has been trying to do since he was a child. At some point he has to fully embrace his past, otherwise he'll never be able to move forward, and it will forever hinder him, more than it would ever benefit him.

Sanji's character has always been the exact opposite of Luffy and Zoro who embrace everything head on. Even in his introduction arc, he didn't want to embrace going after his dream at first. Things like Zeff saving his life, and Judge being his father, with him being born a "failed experiment" has served as nothing more than shackles for him throughout the entire series.

Not surprising certain people dislike this turn of events for Sanji's character, as they would probably rather see him remain shackled, over him embrace what holds him back, so he can finally move forward.
I'll add something.

Sanji not embracing his new powers due to Judge being "happy" is a terrible outcome. You don't throw away something that can help you protect the things that are most dear to you, just because it might "make a dickhead happy".
It's like that pray:
"God, grant me serenity to accept the things I can't change,
Courage to change the things I can,
and Wisdom to know the difference".

His "gene modifications" are not something he can change. They happened already. What he might struggle and will inevitably overcome is the "emotionless" aspect. He should learn that keeping his emotions, using this power to help his friends, are things HE controls. Not Judge, not anyone else.
 
#80
I have absolutely no dog in this fight, but just sit back and compare post-skip Sanji to pre-skip Sanji.

The difference is gigantic.

Post-skip Sanji looks like a carricature of himself. A bit like Oda lost interest in him and made him into a generic dude without any kind of depth or relatable behavior/attitude anymore.

Yes, I know we supposedly got his "backstory", but it really was just a lazy mix of Robin's and Nami's backstory. Even the supposed "running away from the past" storyline was executed really poorly imho.

Post-skip Sanji isn't the lovable and smart "Mr.Prince Sanji" anymore. Oda made him into a one-dimensional sexual predator. Then he gave him a totally loveless powerup that's actually lame af and out of character.

It's really like Oda doesn't care anymore.
 
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