Speculations It was legitimately bad writing for Oda to not have had Sanji fight Oven in WCI

Reborn

Throughout Heaven & Earth,I alone am d Honored One
#61
By saying that it was bad writing just because sanji didn't get fight, you are overlooking the entire purpose of wci arc.

It wasn't sanji arc. It wasn't sanji year to shine as a fighter. It was his rescue arc where half of the crew entered in a yonkou territory to simply get sanji back and escape.

Luffy fighting cracker is justified because Luffy was an intruder and sending a Commander to deal with him is in line with arc writing just like in case of earlier Intruders - uroge

Also, Luffy vs katakuri only happend when Luffy had no option other than to fight him in mirror world to let his crew escape.

There was no such compulsion or circumstances for sanji. He wasn't intruder. He was invited as a guest. Till tea party, Bm assumed that he will be shot by pudding and after that sanji was involved in escaping ( it was his rescue arc and not otherwise) and baking cake for BM which is in line with how sanji is and what his primary role in sh is.

So,no it wasn't bad writing. Saying,it is bad implies that you didn't understand how oda has written wci arc and how he has portrayed sanji character.
 

KiriNigiri

The Road To Harmony
#62
For once, I agree with you what you meant, but don't think it crumble away in later half
Thanks..I guess.
as while he did save his family, they not going to turn 180 degrees and be nice people now as that be too BS
I never said they should pull a 180. In fact, I specifically state that's not as important.

for that as of course they be prideful especially Judge who thought all these years Sanji was worst of them all, but secretly realize he is best of them all especially Luffy sees true words of others despite how they act in outside, so that push more he accepts him otherwise why give him RS, but of course Sanji still won't use it in way of Germa and use it more his way which is why it being modify.
That's precisely why it's getting modified, likely. But again, that doesn't help Sanji's arc in WCI. You can interpret Luffy's response to Judge's tirade against Sanji as him recognizing Judge secretly re-evaluating Sanji positively, but that doesn't undo the bigger damage that Judge's fate, and the fate of the other Vinsmokes, are still uncertain. And their potential return would be attributed minimally to Sanji.

Cake was very important as Oda defended use in SBS since without it, nothing would stop BM and her coming back up was inevitable as he didn't say it knock her out forever, just enough time to escape. Though just because she is down, her crew won't stop messing with Strawhats as shown. They stay behind not because BM came back, but more her crew didn't stop coming after them. I highly doubt they are dead and that isn't on Sanji since they decided to stay behind while they help them escape.
There were any number of ways Linlin's rampage could've been prevented. Bege himself suggested poisoning it. They could've even gone through the process of making a cake that wasn't as good, poisoning it, and feeding it to Linlin who, even if she hated it, would've tasted it and gotten poisoned either way. Note, I'm not saying he should've poisoned it, just that the cake alone wasn't the only option. The point is--Sanji's alternative had no practical benefit in the end, and created an end result that just fueled his own pride and values, rather than benefiting his comrades. Conflicting with his kind nature.

Just because you temporarily cut off the head, the body won't stop moving as figure speech with the crew especially Luffy pissed them off by beating Katakuri, so doesn't make sense that cake would stop them all together, just BM from stopping them.
Ok, let's say the BMPs didn't regroup to Linlin's location upon hearing she's unconscious, that would still remove Linlin from the equation, greatly increasing the Sun Pirates' and Germa's survival. Or even the alternative, if Bege had been allowed to poison the cake, then Linlin wouldn't be on Wano and formed an alliance with Kaido.

That's where some failed to see writing detail deep down and why many explain about it and then understand meaning of the arc looking at it.
And this is where I mention the overarching plot working against the self contained nature of WCI. The overarching narrative demanded the Sun Pirates and Germa stay behind. However, Sanji's entire desire to stay and save them is downplayed as a result, and served to endanger his friends in the process. Everything from the Tea Party to the end of the arc, it feels like unnecessary conflicts because what came about it is--Germa, outside of Reiju, went from dying outside of their terms to potentially dying on their terms. But is that worth it in the end? Especially when the one Vinsmoke that was supportive towards Sanji was already resigned to her fate, and the others don't have emotions anyway.

It was like Impel Down Arc, but different in a way as theme wasn't to defeat or dominate everyone, just to retrieve, escape, and build character for others especially Sanji.
They would've escaped as early as right before the Tea Party if it weren't for Sanji wanting to save his family, along with Jinbe and Pedro. And how was Sanji's character built? He came out of WCI exactly how he was going into it. His character didn't meaningfully change from the experience.

Did it's purpose and few mislead thinking it was another fighting arc when stated in the arc by characters they were not ready yet to 'defeat' an Yonko Crew many times.
Again, they could've successfully escaped and accrued less casualties had they left in the timeline I mentioned.

The arc was helping Sanji's character as both a cook and fighter as he did have fights, but just not full fight and reestablish his dream for All Blue and such.
That is where you don't get it. Yes, the arc's intention was to inform his character in a positive way. The problem is that the execution leaves little to be desired.
 
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H

Haoshoku

#63
WCI arc was largely not about fighting. They weren’t there to take down people but to retrieve Sanji and get the hell out of there afterwards. Are we really revisiting this? Although Oda had an opportunity to give him a fight here and there it ultimately wasn’t needed at all.
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Of course, Luffy vs Katakuri works against that suggestion
No one even expected this fight tbh. It truly looked like a last minute addition into the plot. It basically served as a fight where Luffy would gain a new power up en route towards Wano. And everything else you said was on point, WCI was never meant to be an arc where Sanji would get a full 1v1 fight, that wasn’t the narrative.
 
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#64
You missed a very obvious parallel to Baratie Arc, even though Oda ends the arc by having Zeff serve his enemies, pirates who could have just destroyed his restaurant like Don Krieg the next day. Oda intentionally avoided giving Sanji drawn out fights even though there was plenty of opportunities. It was the time to make Sanji's other characteristics shine, to remind readers of what Luffy initially was drawn to Sanji for. Wano is the war arc, Sanji was brought to Wano to fight, Sanji can fight with every other Strawhat there because the BMP are returning as enemies anyway.

The entire subplot of the Germa 66 was that they saw Sanji as nothing but tool for fighting. Judge wanted to raise super soldiers for his militaristic kingdom, even his clones are disposable and Judge is all too happy to sacrifice their lives. Sanji's value was intrinsically tied to how useful he was for fighting and everything that held him back from that purpose whether his compassion or desire to cook for some rats was a seen as a weakness. Sanji was their failure. Sanji beats up Yonji and he's STILL a failure to Judge. Why? Because he retained all those other qualities. In Judge's eyes, Sanji cannot make up for the emotions and mercy he would show to his enemies, dooming the Germa 66 in the end.

Now let's go back to Baratie Arc, Sanji's very own character introduction. Sanji did far far worse than WCI, he accomplished almost zero fighting feats. Sanji didn't save Baratie, Luffy saved the restaurant. Sanji didn't defeated Pearl, Gin defeated Pearl. Sanji fought and lost to Gin, a man who only had energy to fight because he fed him. In Judge's eyes, Sanji is a failure. He is responsible for Baratie's potential end. There is no way he is recruiting a jobber who couldn't defeat a single character of note in that arc. Judge and his children value strength, not cooking skills, and a chef like Cossette can casually get beaten up with no consequences as she is mere lowly servant.

So why did Luffy recruit Sanji? Because he liked his marvelous cooking skills, the compassion he'd shown to an pleading starving enemy like Gin, the way he stood against scum looking for trouble like Fullbody, his powerful dream to explore the world and find the All Blue. If Luffy was looking for military might like Judge, he would taken a hard pass on Sanji based on what he saw. Sanji only later in the story GREW in the monster trio role. Sanji is indeed strong, it's not as if he took a hard L to any enemy in WCI, but there is more to Sanji than fighting and Oda used this arc as his showcase. WCI was a call back to Sanji's origins, later in Wano he can show his later adapted role as a valuable fighter by defeating a top subordinate like Queen as Zoro takes on King and Luffy against Kaido.

Do you get it now? Everything Judge hates about Sanji is what Luffy recruited him for. If Sanji defeats an enemy even Judge couldn't handle like Oven and saves his life from the brink, that's proving him right. Judge would no longer think of Sanji as a complete failure, the readers would have to live with that scumbag's approval. He might have even invited Sanji back to join him and envied Luffy for taking him away. Instead, everything he has to say and think about Sanji has to be completely ignored and dismissed just as Luffy did. Judge needs to be completely wrong here, he is a twisted human being who genetically modified his own children to be his loyal tools.

In WCI, we see Sanji's cooking skills are out of this world, he shows compassion to starving enemies like Big Mom, chivalry to a monster girl like Pudding trying to kill him, goes back to save the evil Germa because it was in his power to stop blood from getting spilled. Sanji also had conflicting existential dualities in Baratie, like when he couldn't understand why Zoro wanted to pick a fight with an overwhelming opponent like Mihawk. We saw a bit of that when he shows his human weakness and beats up his own captain, because Sanji for a moment was afraid of the overwhelming power of the Big Mom Pirates. The Strawhats are far from completely fearless, they have to muster up a lot courage and belief to do what they do. Oda pretty much gave us every part of Sanji, some of it which we hadn't seen in a very long time, including a few minor fighting feats. In my opinion, Oda handled Sanji in WCI quite well.
 
#65
I believe WCI is mostly Sanji's battle with his Ghost from the Past and to get rid of his dark past to move on to the brighter future with his true family. So yeah, giving him a 1 Vs 1 would draw people's focus towards the battle and not in his actual battle. :sanmoji:
Ill never forget you fucking "sanji fans" bashing my boi like that back then lol.
all of them dont deserve the hype from raid suit later down the line.
#beliveinsanji
 
#66
I bash Oda because instead of making Sanji grow stronger. He gives him a dumb suit that goes against his morals and how he was built as a fighter.

It was cheap way of making him stronger because he couldnt be asked giving anyone but Luffy fights.
Sanji still has to get stronger, but he will get stronger offensively.

The suits biggest boost is the durability. Sanji is a speed and offensive type fighter, he was never about to get better durability without the suit, so it helps lol. And it does help his build as a fighter because it boosts his base speed and offense slightly.

Everything Sanji went through in WCI was the reason Sanji threw away his morals.
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Could have been Oven or Daifuku, giving Sanji the opportunity to grow in an arc highly personal to him.

Did not happen, hence why he has to accept the suit despite swearing to never use it, otherwise he would not be relevant combat-wise beyond at best the flying six.
They wouldnt have helped him grow, because he was already stronger than them both lol. He was easily fending off Daifuku with base kicks, even the strongest and biggest version of the genie got blocked by a base kick. If Sanji got remotely serious they would have been fucked, Oven got lucky he didnt get a DJ kick instead. He could help Luffy block a direct attack from their mother Big Mom lol. Sanji clearly is a different level of strength from them, portrayed by Oda, clear as day on panel there.

Oda didnt need to give Sanji a 1 v 1 to show how strong he is.
 
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Jew D. Boy

I Can Go Lower
#71
Oda said WCI wasnt supposed to be that long but he extened it due to having too many ideas. Then he said the arc got too long and had to cut some things. WCI feels so incomplete and the author himself practically said so as well. So bad writing by the author's own admission.
He had to cut some things (like fights) that his fan base actually wants to see because he spent ~20 chapters alone on the SHP trying to escape Totto Land...it’s not like he couldn’t have seen this coming as he drew the thousandth panel depicting this bullshit.
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Both of the following can be true - Sanji should have had a fight in WCI, and that still would not have made it a good part of this series. I understand what Oda was trying to do on an intellectual level, but the final product still sucks and it wasn’t much fun while we were still in the second act. The focus on Luffy is too heavy post-time skip, but can you imagine how fucking boring that arc would have been if he hadn’t fought Katakuri? That is the lone saving grace of WCI, and it only happened out of necessity. Oda oughta stick to what he knows, it’s already made him quite successful.
 
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#72
Here is what I think most people miss about the cake subplot.


It's Big Mom.

What do we know about Big Mom? She's a glutton, she's petty, she's a schemer but most of all- she's unpredictable. She is the only character that you never know what to expect from. Kaido? Angry and strong. Shanks? Chill and kind. Whitebeard? Strong and prideful. Big Mom? There are so many things.

The cake was a failure, but that..is the point. NOTHING could stop Big Mom. WE aren't used to somber endings where they "lose" in the end or the victory is bitter. We are used to Enies Lobby, Dressrosa, Fishman Island. Parties where the victory is clear. The cake doesnt feel satisfying because at the end of the day, Big Mom is a yonko. There wouldn't be an easy ending one way or the other.

All is hopeless. The final shot of the place is every support character minus Capone looking ahead towards their greatest adversary who is coming in as powerful as ever. This alone makes this arc much more unique than most other arcs. So yea, Sanji not fighting was intentional to play up the one aspect of his that was crucial since day one - his kindness- the kindness that saved Don Krieg and Gin. But also, the ending defies expectations because not even that was enough. Big Mom is bigger and scarier than that.
 
#74
Here is what I think most people miss about the cake subplot.


It's Big Mom.

What do we know about Big Mom? She's a glutton, she's petty, she's a schemer but most of all- she's unpredictable. She is the only character that you never know what to expect from. Kaido? Angry and strong. Shanks? Chill and kind. Whitebeard? Strong and prideful. Big Mom? There are so many things.

The cake was a failure, but that..is the point. NOTHING could stop Big Mom. WE aren't used to somber endings where they "lose" in the end or the victory is bitter. We are used to Enies Lobby, Dressrosa, Fishman Island. Parties where the victory is clear. The cake doesnt feel satisfying because at the end of the day, Big Mom is a yonko. There wouldn't be an easy ending one way or the other.

All is hopeless. The final shot of the place is every support character minus Capone looking ahead towards their greatest adversary who is coming in as powerful as ever. This alone makes this arc much more unique than most other arcs. So yea, Sanji not fighting was intentional to play up the one aspect of his that was crucial since day one - his kindness- the kindness that saved Don Krieg and Gin. But also, the ending defies expectations because not even that was enough. Big Mom is bigger and scarier than that.
in the anime, this sequence alone warrant an 8/10 from the arc.
wci is so good
 
#75
sanji did not do what yall wanted him to do is not bad writing
he is passionate about cooking and thats what he did in wci
thats where he thinks hes the most relevant and thats great.
just because he didnt get a new feat isnt "bad writing"
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some of the people who say sanji needed to beat oven to move to high tiers will say kid and law will do a lot versus kaido without beating a single high tier
blokes are funny
 
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