Versus Battle Kisame versus Sarutobi Hiruzen
- Thread starter Gargo
- Start date
The manga panels. Okay.
But the Anime : not cannon.
I see Kisame winning this because while Hiruzen can greatly use each element, Kisame is a league above with his suiton.
Plus, Enma or not, Kisame can steal chakra.
I see Kisame winning this high diff. He wins because Hiruzen is old and don't have much chakra. I would have made 50 years old Hiruzen on equal terms with Kisame and 40 years old the Winner.
π₯
But the Anime : not cannon.
I see Kisame winning this because while Hiruzen can greatly use each element, Kisame is a league above with his suiton.
Plus, Enma or not, Kisame can steal chakra.
I see Kisame winning this high diff. He wins because Hiruzen is old and don't have much chakra. I would have made 50 years old Hiruzen on equal terms with Kisame and 40 years old the Winner.
π₯
Canon is a subjective idea created by fans as not one time has kishimodo said anything close to what you guys peddle and or push but i'll follow your stupid rules even though you never clarified it in the op
Plus even if we ignore the anime sarutobi still is even to guruguru zetsu who stomped the gokage.
Sarutobi is equal to a guy who stomped the gokage while a zetsu who was even in power to kisame got his cleaved off by a,jr and killer bee
I know you types always do as you people hate that it's not made by kishimodo yet you same people also like boruto which is made by kodachi not kishimodo so it's just biased and hypocritical nonsense hence why i dont care for or like the muh canon people
I didt include it, Kishimodo did like raiga and matsuri originally appeared as anime only characters then he added them to the manga later meaning the anime is canon
I didt include it, Kishimodo did like raiga and matsuri originally appeared as anime only characters then he added them to the manga later meaning the anime is canon
Okay Bob. Here we go.
I'm lucky because it seems most people don't consider Naruto, Bleach and One Piece Anime as cannon. Boruto is a special cases.
To be clear : I absolutely hate Naruto, Bleach and One Piece Anime ( and Dragon Ball Z Anime by the way. It's not a personal attack about your avatar, it's because it will illustrate well the following ).
Sengoku versus Frieza is dozens of episodes long, with poor drawings and sound effects and on and on and on.
Most Fillers Anime Characters are Ugly with super stereotypical personalities. Like Juzo Biwa or any 3 episodes villains.
( Deepa design is good but his personality... And what are they doing to Code in the last episodes ? )
I'm lucky because it seems most people don't consider Naruto, Bleach and One Piece Anime as cannon. Boruto is a special cases.
To be clear : I absolutely hate Naruto, Bleach and One Piece Anime ( and Dragon Ball Z Anime by the way. It's not a personal attack about your avatar, it's because it will illustrate well the following ).
Sengoku versus Frieza is dozens of episodes long, with poor drawings and sound effects and on and on and on.
Most Fillers Anime Characters are Ugly with super stereotypical personalities. Like Juzo Biwa or any 3 episodes villains.
( Deepa design is good but his personality... And what are they doing to Code in the last episodes ? )
Hiruzen was God of Shinobi, can use Every Konoha Jutsu & Mastered all 5 Elements
Prime Hiruzen is way Superior than Kisame
Now let's check Old Hiruzen & let's see if he got Weaker to the point where he lose against Kisame:
1. Orochimaru (Both Hands) revived both First & Second Hokage to be able to Fight Old Hiruzen & still barely escaped
2. According to Databooks, Old Hiruzen have 5/5 in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Taijutsu, Intelligence & Hand Seals while Kisame was Inferior in all these Stats, however he is better in Physical Stats only which is obvious since this is Old Hiruzen.
Add Enma to Old Hiruzen who can make the Fight more like 2 v 1 & i don't think Kisame can handle this
IMO Prime Hiruzen >>> Old Hiruzen > Kisame
Orochimaru said that if Hiruzen was only 10 Years younger, he would have lost even with Two Hokages with him so you can imagine how crazy strong is Hiruzen
Prime Hiruzen is way Superior than Kisame
Now let's check Old Hiruzen & let's see if he got Weaker to the point where he lose against Kisame:
1. Orochimaru (Both Hands) revived both First & Second Hokage to be able to Fight Old Hiruzen & still barely escaped
2. According to Databooks, Old Hiruzen have 5/5 in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Taijutsu, Intelligence & Hand Seals while Kisame was Inferior in all these Stats, however he is better in Physical Stats only which is obvious since this is Old Hiruzen.
Add Enma to Old Hiruzen who can make the Fight more like 2 v 1 & i don't think Kisame can handle this
IMO Prime Hiruzen >>> Old Hiruzen > Kisame
Orochimaru said that if Hiruzen was only 10 Years younger, he would have lost even with Two Hokages with him so you can imagine how crazy strong is Hiruzen
It's supreme king bob as only people on my level intellect wise can call me by my first name
It's not if you consider it as canon or not that matters, It matters what is.
Everyone agreeing with you is because casual anime fans dont bother with debates like this as they just think your group is narcissistic and pathetic due to hasrassining and being generally ignorant to people just because they like something different also why nobody contests this nonsense is because your going against the consensus and as such your not going to get along with people.
Also group think and people agreeing with you is not a argument unless you think minority stances or takes are always wrong which if you wanna go down that rabbit hole, You would also have to say alot controversial things that happened in history are also correct due the majority agreeing.
Again your group of people are known for being elitist pricks who insult anyone for liking the anime of something so your hatred of the anime was known to me, The second you mentioned canon as the only people who obsess over that are people like you.
You see this is how you people act, You call people retarded and idiots all cause they prefer an anime to a manga yet you same people will act like this is some objective matter and not just a petty hatred for things that you dislike
It's longer because the manga was behind, Do you understand how anime production works or no?
Also animation is supposed to look good in movement not frame by frame as it's not viewed as a still image so the poor drawings argument is stupid as it ignores how animation itself works.
Well you finding them ugly is subjective and it depends on the character in regards to personality like yakumo kurama for an example wanted revenge on kurenai for abandoning her plus kakzuzu was evil because evil yet nobody critieses that but they use that same criticism towards filler characters which at that point, It's redundant as you already showed not having a issue with that sort of caricature.
Your making excuses as to justify your hatred and your doing it very horriblly at as those same criticisms can be held for alot of manga characters aswell.
Your trying to find something to hate as you already admitted to hating it so your reason is not valid as it's rooted in bias and a emotional hatred for the show, You see this is the difference between manga onlys like him and anime onlys like me in that we dont want content that you like banned and we dont hate you for liking that manga where we have a problem though is when you people act like self entitled moral arbitrators who think their better then us as they read the book version instead of the tv show.
Also juzo was added to the manga so you are incorrect in saying that he is a fillier villain
Okay what designs you prefer are ultimately subjective and i love how you criticise juzo for having a stereotypical personality yet your fine with that deepa doing that same thing, It's almost like your biased and you only like boruto as the community does so aswell.
If your going to dislike characters for having stereotypical personalities then you also have to hate alot of characters from boruto and naruto for that same thing, If you care about consistency in your argument that is
It's not if you consider it as canon or not that matters, It matters what is.
Everyone agreeing with you is because casual anime fans dont bother with debates like this as they just think your group is narcissistic and pathetic due to hasrassining and being generally ignorant to people just because they like something different also why nobody contests this nonsense is because your going against the consensus and as such your not going to get along with people.
Also group think and people agreeing with you is not a argument unless you think minority stances or takes are always wrong which if you wanna go down that rabbit hole, You would also have to say alot controversial things that happened in history are also correct due the majority agreeing.
Again your group of people are known for being elitist pricks who insult anyone for liking the anime of something so your hatred of the anime was known to me, The second you mentioned canon as the only people who obsess over that are people like you.
You see this is how you people act, You call people retarded and idiots all cause they prefer an anime to a manga yet you same people will act like this is some objective matter and not just a petty hatred for things that you dislike
It's longer because the manga was behind, Do you understand how anime production works or no?
Also animation is supposed to look good in movement not frame by frame as it's not viewed as a still image so the poor drawings argument is stupid as it ignores how animation itself works.
Well you finding them ugly is subjective and it depends on the character in regards to personality like yakumo kurama for an example wanted revenge on kurenai for abandoning her plus kakzuzu was evil because evil yet nobody critieses that but they use that same criticism towards filler characters which at that point, It's redundant as you already showed not having a issue with that sort of caricature.
Your making excuses as to justify your hatred and your doing it very horriblly at as those same criticisms can be held for alot of manga characters aswell.
Your trying to find something to hate as you already admitted to hating it so your reason is not valid as it's rooted in bias and a emotional hatred for the show, You see this is the difference between manga onlys like him and anime onlys like me in that we dont want content that you like banned and we dont hate you for liking that manga where we have a problem though is when you people act like self entitled moral arbitrators who think their better then us as they read the book version instead of the tv show.
Also juzo was added to the manga so you are incorrect in saying that he is a fillier villain
Okay what designs you prefer are ultimately subjective and i love how you criticise juzo for having a stereotypical personality yet your fine with that deepa doing that same thing, It's almost like your biased and you only like boruto as the community does so aswell.
If your going to dislike characters for having stereotypical personalities then you also have to hate alot of characters from boruto and naruto for that same thing, If you care about consistency in your argument that is
Bobby. I did not call you stupid or belittle you for your tastes.
I openly admitted that my tastes were subjectives, there is no debates on that.
You have the right to like Naruto Anime and I'm fine with it. Cool down LMAO.
Plus, I like a lot of Animes, I will not talk about all of them but gives a few example :
> Samurai ChampΕ«rΕ«
> Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood
> Kill la Kill
> Tora Dora
> Arakawa Under the Bridge
> Death Note
> Terror in Resonance
> Gantz Movie, One Piece : Gold, Stampede, Z
I openly admitted that my tastes were subjectives, there is no debates on that.
You have the right to like Naruto Anime and I'm fine with it. Cool down LMAO.
Plus, I like a lot of Animes, I will not talk about all of them but gives a few example :
> Samurai ChampΕ«rΕ«
> Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood
> Kill la Kill
> Tora Dora
> Arakawa Under the Bridge
> Death Note
> Terror in Resonance
> Gantz Movie, One Piece : Gold, Stampede, Z
5 is the Limit of the Databook, that means Characters with 5 in a Stat are 5 at least but could be more
Guy was Beyond 5 in Taijutsu & that's what Databooks gave him
Kisame isn't even 5 in Ninjutsu, Taijutsu & Genjutsu, Intelligence & Hand Seals so not only Old Hiruzen is Superior according to Databooks but the gap could be higher
Ofc Hashirama & Tobirama weren't at Full Capacity but they are still Top Ninja being summoned by Orochimaru who can't die by normal means, the simple fact that Masashi decided to make Orochimaru revive Three Kages to fight Old Hiruzen should tell you how Strong he considers Hiruzen, otherwise he would have made Orochimaru fight alone & have same result, after all Orochimaru is the guy who was introduced as someone who can kills Kages such as Fourth Kazekage & he is fighting an old version of hiruzen, so it would still makes sense for the reader
Guy was Beyond 5 in Taijutsu & that's what Databooks gave him
Kisame isn't even 5 in Ninjutsu, Taijutsu & Genjutsu, Intelligence & Hand Seals so not only Old Hiruzen is Superior according to Databooks but the gap could be higher
Ofc Hashirama & Tobirama weren't at Full Capacity but they are still Top Ninja being summoned by Orochimaru who can't die by normal means, the simple fact that Masashi decided to make Orochimaru revive Three Kages to fight Old Hiruzen should tell you how Strong he considers Hiruzen, otherwise he would have made Orochimaru fight alone & have same result, after all Orochimaru is the guy who was introduced as someone who can kills Kages such as Fourth Kazekage & he is fighting an old version of hiruzen, so it would still makes sense for the reader
5 is the limit so some characters are above that ? I totally agree with it.
When looking at Hiruzen stats I see : 3 in Strength and 3 in Stamina. Quite limited.
When looking at Kisame stats : 5 in strenght ( so possibly higher ) and 5 in Stamina ( so possibly higher, thanks Samehada ).
> Kisame feast on Hiruzen poor chakra.
Rasa is not the strongest of the Kage.
But I agree that with his initial hype, Young Hiruzen > Kisame.
When looking at Hiruzen stats I see : 3 in Strength and 3 in Stamina. Quite limited.
When looking at Kisame stats : 5 in strenght ( so possibly higher ) and 5 in Stamina ( so possibly higher, thanks Samehada ).
> Kisame feast on Hiruzen poor chakra.
Rasa is not the strongest of the Kage.
But I agree that with his initial hype, Young Hiruzen > Kisame.
Never said you did, I said your group acts in that manner so dont put words in my mouth, Your being dishonest here.
I said your group and you people meaning im not referring to you rather your individual group
Except you are being dishonest as you acted like the anime was bad because of generic villains and now your backtracking on that premise as your argument was debunked rather simply.
I admit that the anime has flaws but im not going to be dishonest and act like the manga is bad for things the anime does like you tried doing, It's just about intellectual consistency and factual accuracy for me.
At least mature enough to know that you lost this debate instead of resorting to insults
I said your group and you people meaning im not referring to you rather your individual group
Except you are being dishonest as you acted like the anime was bad because of generic villains and now your backtracking on that premise as your argument was debunked rather simply.
I admit that the anime has flaws but im not going to be dishonest and act like the manga is bad for things the anime does like you tried doing, It's just about intellectual consistency and factual accuracy for me.
At least mature enough to know that you lost this debate instead of resorting to insults
Strength & Stamina are Physical Stats, we already saw everything Kisame can do
But Hiruzen is superior in Ninjutsu, Taijutsu & Genjutsu, they are literally the Three Components of being a Ninja
Of course those Three Stats makes you better than someone who is Physically stronger
You say Samehada, but Hiruzen not only have a Weapon but it's Diamond Strong, can change Size & Length for super Ranged attacks & it's strong enough to push even Full Nine Tails from Konoha & this isn't just a Weapon, this is Monkey King Enma who can Transform partially or full at will & is a Top Taijutsu user himself and a smart Fighter, it's like 2 v 1
Doesn't matter how Rasa ranks, Orochimaru was also Member of Akatsuki, one of Three Legendary Sannin, Killer of Fourth Kazekage & was gonna be chosen as Fourth Hokage, this same guy decided to Summon Three Hokages to be able to defeat Old Hiruzen, can you grasp how crazy that is?
If you think Kisame can fight not only Orochimaru alone but also Two Edo Tensei Hokages then i don't know what to tell you
Six Paths of Pain said they might have lost against Jiraya if they didn't surprise him, Hiruzen fought Jiraya's Rival + 2 Edo Tensei Kages (Quiet Powerful ones), please understand how incredible is this Portrayal
But Hiruzen is superior in Ninjutsu, Taijutsu & Genjutsu, they are literally the Three Components of being a Ninja
Of course those Three Stats makes you better than someone who is Physically stronger
You say Samehada, but Hiruzen not only have a Weapon but it's Diamond Strong, can change Size & Length for super Ranged attacks & it's strong enough to push even Full Nine Tails from Konoha & this isn't just a Weapon, this is Monkey King Enma who can Transform partially or full at will & is a Top Taijutsu user himself and a smart Fighter, it's like 2 v 1
Doesn't matter how Rasa ranks, Orochimaru was also Member of Akatsuki, one of Three Legendary Sannin, Killer of Fourth Kazekage & was gonna be chosen as Fourth Hokage, this same guy decided to Summon Three Hokages to be able to defeat Old Hiruzen, can you grasp how crazy that is?
If you think Kisame can fight not only Orochimaru alone but also Two Edo Tensei Hokages then i don't know what to tell you
Six Paths of Pain said they might have lost against Jiraya if they didn't surprise him, Hiruzen fought Jiraya's Rival + 2 Edo Tensei Kages (Quiet Powerful ones), please understand how incredible is this Portrayal
Which debate ?
The debate is Hiruzen versus Kisame.
I said : I don't like Anime, this is subjective, and I'm lucky that generally only Manga is considered cannon.
You said : you don't like Anime, this is subjective.
Where is the debate here ?
Are you really complaining that I don't go lines after lines detailing how much I hate Naruto Animes with examples of characters, sound effect, scenarii, drawings, sequences, and so on ?
Who wants to read that ? Who is interested about "Gargo is complaining about Naruto Anime for 40 lines ?"
And. You really wants me to tell you :
Mangaka don't work alone, they have assistant, editors. They works with Studios for the Movies and there is a strong possibility that Juzo Biwa and Raiga were made by the studio and they asked Kishimoto to retcon it.
I'mm really not sure that Kishimoto designed Juzo.
There is no debate you winning. But for sure you're arguing.
π
The debate is Hiruzen versus Kisame.
I said : I don't like Anime, this is subjective, and I'm lucky that generally only Manga is considered cannon.
You said : you don't like Anime, this is subjective.
Where is the debate here ?
Are you really complaining that I don't go lines after lines detailing how much I hate Naruto Animes with examples of characters, sound effect, scenarii, drawings, sequences, and so on ?
Who wants to read that ? Who is interested about "Gargo is complaining about Naruto Anime for 40 lines ?"
And. You really wants me to tell you :
Mangaka don't work alone, they have assistant, editors. They works with Studios for the Movies and there is a strong possibility that Juzo Biwa and Raiga were made by the studio and they asked Kishimoto to retcon it.
I'mm really not sure that Kishimoto designed Juzo.
There is no debate you winning. But for sure you're arguing.
π
The one about canon and anime that you started even though it was off topic
You dont have a argument to make thats why you wont do it, It's just a pety hatred as said by you yourself
Also saying as the generic villains argument got destroyed as soon as it was mentioned, It's fair to say that you do not have much in terms of a argument.
Never said mangaka work alone and what would be retconed by having juzo exist in the manga?
Juzo and raiga were anime only characters added to the manga later on which proves they are one universe, This is further confirmed in boruto where raiga has a daughter and she hates naruto as she thought he killed raiga referring to how he killed himself in the naruto anime
You dont have a argument to make thats why you wont do it, It's just a pety hatred as said by you yourself
Also saying as the generic villains argument got destroyed as soon as it was mentioned, It's fair to say that you do not have much in terms of a argument.
Never said mangaka work alone and what would be retconed by having juzo exist in the manga?
Juzo and raiga were anime only characters added to the manga later on which proves they are one universe, This is further confirmed in boruto where raiga has a daughter and she hates naruto as she thought he killed raiga referring to how he killed himself in the naruto anime
No. I did not start a debate here, I was giving context to why I don't take Anime cannon into account.
I won't do it because I won't watch Naruto on YouTube, listing characters after characters that I don't like, for an inexisting debate, with Bob the Angry Forumer.
Then you go personal with : "you do not have much in terms of argument" and "arguments destroyed".
Good. You seem to have understand. Almost.
Mangaka do Manga > Studio Adapt Manga > Mangaka can't write so many chapters > Studio create filler > Studio create filler character > Mangaka now has to adapt what he was drawing to not concurrence too much what the studio is doing.
Studio create Juzo > Kishimoto is nice, he say okay I will put him briefly in one panel or two at the war > we never heard of him before, we never heard of him after.
I'm pretty sure you understand now.
I won't do it because I won't watch Naruto on YouTube, listing characters after characters that I don't like, for an inexisting debate, with Bob the Angry Forumer.
Then you go personal with : "you do not have much in terms of argument" and "arguments destroyed".
Good. You seem to have understand. Almost.
Mangaka do Manga > Studio Adapt Manga > Mangaka can't write so many chapters > Studio create filler > Studio create filler character > Mangaka now has to adapt what he was drawing to not concurrence too much what the studio is doing.
Studio create Juzo > Kishimoto is nice, he say okay I will put him briefly in one panel or two at the war > we never heard of him before, we never heard of him after.
I'm pretty sure you understand now.
You brought up the topic of canon not me so yes it was you who started this discussion and you hating something is not a valid reason to discard it but whatever it's your thread
Who watches naruto on youtube and thats not even possible as there's no episodes on there just a few clips
The angry forum user would be the one who blindly hates things and accuses others of insulting him when that never happened but your free to think of me however you like in spite of it being wrong
I said it's fair to say that you dont have much of a argument considering the context, Could you not misquote me and how is saying that you have bad arguments personal?
The argument of generic villians was debunked by me so yes that is true unless you think that bland characters like sasori,deepa,kakuzu and hidan are not generic in terms of motive and personality.
Your wrong as characters like raiga were referenced later on in boruto
Who watches naruto on youtube and thats not even possible as there's no episodes on there just a few clips
The angry forum user would be the one who blindly hates things and accuses others of insulting him when that never happened but your free to think of me however you like in spite of it being wrong
I said it's fair to say that you dont have much of a argument considering the context, Could you not misquote me and how is saying that you have bad arguments personal?
The argument of generic villians was debunked by me so yes that is true unless you think that bland characters like sasori,deepa,kakuzu and hidan are not generic in terms of motive and personality.
Your wrong as characters like raiga were referenced later on in boruto
You already know that, no ?
Itachi > Orochimaru, but Orochimaru is = or > Jiraiya, but Jiraiya > Itachi and Jiraiya = Pein, but Pein > Orochimaru.
There is some inconsistencies on how strong is Orochimaru comparatively to his Akatsuki ex-fellows.
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I like Sasori. It's subjective. But I think he is a great character, a guy who looked for immortality because he was traumatize by his parents death.
Did not feel love so he looked for something to compensate.
In the end he was not satisfied and did not want to kill his grandma so he let her kills him and helps Sakura.
I like Deepa design. But Deepa is an Anime only character. Check your information.
I like Kakuzu too, I like his abilities, and he is simply an immortal guy driven by money and thrill seeking.
Hidan is basic crazy guy, yes. Like The Espada Hollow Scientist in Bleach, or any Anime characters laughing like crazy. Like Light Yagami or Dofflamingo or Team Rocket.
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