Powers & Abilities Misconceptions about CoC - Charisma (alone) does not a Conqueror make

[Den_Den_Mushi]

I was really too lazy to put this together, but after seeing another braindead Reddit 'SanJI wILl GeT CoC' thread blow up, I suddenly realised how many people love to cherry pick the manga, but have no idea about what truly points to a character having CoC. So let me clear a few things up.

1. CoC is not (just) charisma

Here's the picture that started it all, a Reddit thread with over 3k upvotes arguing that Sanji will get CoC because he has converted secondary characters into allies:

Spoiler

This is... not accurate. For many reasons.

All the Straw Hats have converted formerly antagonistic characters into allies through heroic deeds. For example, Chiffon chose her loyalty to Nami over fleeing to safety with Capone and Pez. She willingly left her husband and child for a woman she'd only just met a day or two ago. Lola was the same, choosing to protect Nami and turning on her crush Absalom in Thriller Bark. This decision nearly resulted in Chiffon being killed by Oven, but she had no regrets about going back to repay her debt.

Spoiler: Nami and Chiffon

Nami also won Tashigi's trust during Punk Hazard by steadfastly insisting on saving the children. Tashigi's respect for Nami was such that she criticised her own subordinates for trash talking pirates later on.

Spoiler: Nami and Tashigi

Nami turned Wanda into an ally by stating (contrary to Sanji's hesitance) that the Straw Hats would save every single Mink from Caesar's poison. Note that it was Nami Wanda turned to for help, and not Sanji.

Spoiler: Nami and Wanda

Nami also converted the scientists of Weatheria into her allies, despite them chasing her (after she robbed them) pre-timeskip.

Spoiler

Strangely, I see very few people arguing that Nami will unlock CoC. But going by this particular criterion, why shouldn't she? Nami's connection with Lola is the sole reason she and Luffy were even able to survive in the Seducing Woods, as Nami held off the homies and even turned them against Cracker with her VC, also allowing the Straw Hats to make use of King Baum to escape later.

The Japanese concept of 借り or indebtedness appears many times throughout the course of the story, and most shonen MCs leverage this in various ways. But as shown above, this is not a good reason to give a character CoC. Were this the case, half the cast would be conquerors. Hence, pointing out examples of characters that feel indebted to the characters (Gin, Germa etc) is simply making poor arguments. It's also leaving out the fact that 借り does not always equate to respect; Germa certainly had no kind words for Sanji's capabilities when they rescued him and Luffy.

This argument also ignores the many, many conquerors who don't rely on making allies, but are content to steamroll others and force them into subordination (Doffy, Big Mom, Kaido, Hancock).

2. Having CoC makes you a prodigy
Among some of the stranger arguments against Zoro getting CoC is that it supposedly undermines his hard work, since being born with CoC means you are a genius. This is untrue for multiple reasons. Luffy is a CoC user, but got smacked around by Higuma and the likes of Bluejam. He was not a natural born destroyer like Big Mom, and neither was Doflamingo, who for all intents and purposes was a normal child strength wise.

Putting that aside, all the Straw Hats are prodigies in their fields. Robin became a scholar at 8, Franky's background in shipwrighting somehow also allows him to be an expert in cybernetics and robotics, and Chopper became a doctor at 15. Usopp invented the Clima-Tact and Nami was a child prodigy at cartography and the second smartest person in East Blue. If genius was an indicator of CoC, pretty much all the Straw Hats should have it.

3. You don't need to want to become a king
Yes, you do. You need a strong will but more specifically, you may actually need to want to become a king.

Fan translations had King ask Zoro if he had 'kingly ambitions' which is more open to interpretation, but the raws and Viz specifically state that Zoro wants to become a King. Given that King asked Zoro this question the moment he saw his CoC, it's safe to say that CoC may well require the actual desire to become a king of some sort, whether the character actually acknowledges it or not. To Luffy, being PK means being the freest man, but a king is a king nevertheless.

Spoiler

「王」- king. Not 'kingly ambitions', but king. Full stop, end of story. Odd given characters like Yamahoe and Latakuri, but this is what we've been given. Even right hand men can be kings in their own right (Rayleigh), so this should not preclude them from CoC either.

Before anyone asks, yes, characters like Mihawk do (or did) want to become kings. When addressing Zoro, Mihawk states that he will await him at the top, using language that portrays himself as a king on his throne:

この世界最強の座にて貴様を待つ
この世界最強の座に - at the top
座 - seat

If Oda decides to give Sanji CoC, he better get the ball rolling now. Zoro's CoC has been foreshadowed since Punk Hazard and even multiple times within this arc. Oda will not dish out CoC to the Straw Hats willy nilly. They are not Rocks' crew, nor are they Roger's, and I highly doubt that Luffy considers his crew having or not having CoC as a prerequisite to surpassing the Red Haired Pirates.

Spoiler: Tags

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[DKI]

I really like your analysis about CoC, is an argument I find very interesting.
I think 2 of the options of the poll are more crucials than the others and are what really makes a conqueror.
Willpower. CoC users never stops and never take one step back, they believe themself are in the right, if you disagree with them they are gonna make you change your mind in the good or the bad.
Ambition, desire to overcome, to step upon the other. In this sense, to become a king.
This are in fact, 2 peculiarities that we can find in any of the CoC users we get to knew throught the story.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

Please tell me what Ace wanted to be the king of? Katakuri? Oden?

You don’t need the desire to be a king. Luffy says outright he doesn’t want to rule over anyone he just wants to be the freest man on the sea.

Theres not just one reason or desire that makes people a king. There are conquerors of all sort.

 

[Herrera95]

It's hard to judge those things since Oda doesn't have it clear even for him.

Katakuri, Chinjao shouldn't have it. Yamato I guess she should.

 

[Rukusho]

Terrific thread !

The only reason Sanji fans want him to have CoC is due to Zoro.

Charisma is a piss poor answer to having CoC.

Kidd isn’t charismatic in the slightest and never pulls anyone to his side he actually does the opposite.

CoC comes down to will power and being capable of standing above others no matter the circumstances.

Perfect example is WCI.

Luffy is willing to tear his arms off to get free and be released from Big Moms prison.

Similarity Zoro during Little Garden, didn’t care about losing his legs as long as he can fight and defeat baroque works

Sanji on the contrary is scared to lose his hands he can’t afford to do so his will power isn’t up there with Luffy & Zoro.

No matter the circumstances to Luffy and Zoro even without limbs I’ll still achieve my dream.

 

[Indigo]

To me is "a predisposition to stand above others"

that can be about leadership, like becoming Pirate King

that can be about skill, like becoming World's Strongest Swordsman

that can be a ridiculous amount of self importance, where you think others are inferior to you, like Doflamingo

that can be to stand above others to protect them, basically a Guardian, like Katakuri

To me it's the idea that one of your core values / goals aligns with the idea of you having to stand above others for some reason

Edit: But it's not just that, you also have to combo that with a strong will

Your will matched with this core value, makes you stand above those others no matter what

That's why Celestial Dragons that thinks themselves above others don't develop this shit, because they have weak wills

 

[Doggo]

Usopp wants to be a brave warrior of the sea.
Not "THE BRAVEST". A brave warrior. Nothing more than a self-accomplishment to become someone he can be proud of.
Since you get triggered by some "sAnJI wILl gET cOc" threads, why not use this energy to dismiss the idea that Usopp NEEDS to have it as well?

We can dance around all night with this "why this character can get coc?" song.
In the end, it's just another BS power creep that Oda shit on the moment he "weaponized" it and turned it into CoA 2.0.

It's like "rare medals" on Medabots, mega evolutions in Digimon, Bankai in Bleach, etc. They start "rare and hype", but, sooner or later, it spreads like the fucking plague, especially for an author that takes more and more lazy routes as current Oda does.
I dread the day Oda decides to hand CoC to the Admirals and the shit show it's gonna be when Sanji fights one of them. Because, unless there are riots in Japan and people there start hating Sanji, he's fighting an Admiral.
Zoro didn't get "coc foreshadowing" since PH.
Zoro has a dream to become the best swordsman since the beginning of the fucking story. There's literally nothing different with the character since the first chapter of the post-TS.
But, instead of throwing a clue or two during big moments like "nothing happened", or maybe when be bowed to Mihawk, no.
Like the copy/pasta character he's become, he gets it right after Luffy.

I find it amazing how people analyze characters like Doflamingo, or Big Mom with CoC, but don't take into consideration that they got these powers when they were fucking toddlers being validated by some ass kissing fuckers (the chef dude and Trebol).
But apparently, Toddler Big Mom throwing a tantrum because she wants to eat some random dessert is more fitting to be a "king" than the entire pre-TS Zoro.

 

[DKI]

It's hard to judge those things since Oda doesn't have it clear even for him.

Katakuri, Chinjao shouldn't have it. Yamato I guess she should.

Chinjao was a Garp rival, for the little we know about him, why shouldn't he have it?
Katakuri is literally the leader and protector of the pack of the Big Mom Pirates.

Please tell me what Ace wanted to be the king of? Katakuri? Oden?
.

Ace wanted to defeat Whitebeard and take his throne. He later decided to become a subordinate of him, but he was destined to reach much higher, Whitebeard himself knew it and wanted him to become Pirate King.
Oden was the heir of the Wanokuni, and yet he created by himself his own kingdom inside Wano throught his adventures, throught his free spirit and his willpower, which made people follow him. He defeated criminals, he freed towns and saved people, Oden's story is just like Luffy's.

Usopp wants to be a brave warrior of the sea.
Not "THE BRAVEST". A brave warrior. Nothing more than a self-accomplishment to become someone he can be proud of.
Since you get triggered by some "sAnJI wILl gET cOc" threads, why not use this energy to dismiss the idea that Usopp NEEDS to have it as well?

I said the same here, this is pure fact for me.

To me, both cases would be stupid and forced.
The first quality of a conqueror is his ambition, a conqueror want to overcome the others.
Luffy want to become the Pirate King.
Zoro want to become the strongest swordsman.
Usopp wants to be a brave warrior, is generic, he would be satisfied in being aknowledged on par with some brave pirate.

 

[ShadyOjiro]

Please tell me what Ace wanted to be the king of? Katakuri? Oden?

You don’t need the desire to be a king. Luffy says outright he doesn’t want to rule over anyone he just wants to be the freest man on the sea.

Theres not just one reason or desire that makes people a king. There are conquerors of all sort.

Kaido asked him what King he wants to be and Luffy answered lmao.

 

[Herrera95]

Chinjao was a Garp rival, for the little we know about him, why shouldn't he have it?
Katakuri is literally the leader and protector of the pack of the Big Mom Pirates.

Ace wanted to defeat Whitebeard and take his throne. He later decided to become a subordinate of him, but he was destined to reach much higher, Whitebeard himself knew it and wanted him to become Pirate King.
Oden was the heir of the Wanokuni, and yet he created by himself his own kingdom inside Wano throught his adventures, throught his free spirit and his willpower, which made people follow him. He defeated criminals, he freed towns and saved people, Oden's story is just like Luffy's.

Garp beat Chinjao with one punch. He ain't no rival. Such a low class pirate not even 1bi bounty. Garp's rivals was Roger with more than 5bi bounty.

Katakuri was no leader at all. Perospero is the right arm of BM pirates.

 

[Uncle Van]

Preskip it was implied that you are born with COC, which is why it's so rare. Garp wasn't surprised Luffy had COC because Dragon had it. Ace used COC as a child and he's the son of Roger. Rayleigh said every living being is capable of using COA and COO, but COC is different.

If that's the case, every or most of BM's children should have COC instead of only Katakuri or else it's a plot hole. Judge or Sora with COC? Yeah no. Would also create another plothole since Judge or the Bros never even hinted at it.

Safest way is to bet that only people with seriously strong willpower can unlock COC in the first place.

 

[DKI]

Garp beat Chinjao with one punch. He ain't no rival. Such a low class pirate not even 1bi bounty. Garp's rivals was Roger with more than 5bi bounty.

Katakuri was no leader at all. Perospero is the right arm of BM pirates.

Perospero is the eldest son and is for sure crucial in the administration of their land. However when it comes to fight is Katakuri who goes to hell to save his lil brothers. Katakuri and Perospero are basically Zoro and Nami (not referred to their strenght but solely on their role in their respective crews).

Chinjao's sole purpose in the story was show how strong the old era pirates were, if he was facing freaking n1 marine of that time there has to be a reason.

 

[Franosuke]

Usopp wants to be a brave warrior of the sea.
Not "THE BRAVEST". A brave warrior. Nothing more than a self-accomplishment to become someone he can be proud of.
Since you get triggered by some "sAnJI wILl gET cOc" threads, why not use this energy to dismiss the idea that Usopp NEEDS to have it as well?

We can dance around all night with this "why this character can get coc?" song.
In the end, it's just another BS power creep that Oda shit on the moment he "weaponized" it and turned it into CoA 2.0.

It's like "rare medals" on Medabots, mega evolutions in Digimon, Bankai in Bleach, etc. They start "rare and hype", but, sooner or later, it spreads like the fucking plague, especially for an author that takes more and more lazy routes as current Oda does.
I dread the day Oda decides to hand CoC to the Admirals and the shit show it's gonna be when Sanji fights one of them. Because, unless there are riots in Japan and people there start hating Sanji, he's fighting an Admiral.
Zoro didn't get "coc foreshadowing" since PH.
Zoro has a dream to become the best swordsman since the beginning of the fucking story. There's literally nothing different with the character since the first chapter of the post-TS.
But, instead of throwing a clue or two during big moments like "nothing happened", or maybe when be bowed to Mihawk, no.
Like the copy/pasta character he's become, he gets it right after Luffy.

I find it amazing how people analyze characters like Doflamingo, or Big Mom with CoC, but don't take into consideration that they got these powers when they were fucking toddlers being validated by some ass kissing fuckers (the chef dude and Trebol).
But apparently, Toddler Big Mom throwing a tantrum because she wants to eat some random dessert is more fitting to be a "king" than the entire pre-TS Zoro.

Yeah I'm ngl I agree with almost everything you said here. I don't think Zoro has become a copy/pasta character but I can see why people have complaints about post-TS Zoro vs pre-TS

Other than that yeah this is pretty spot on lmao

 

[Marimo_420]

Terrific thread !

The only reason Sanji fans want him to have CoC is due to Zoro.

Don't need to say anything more really, the first part is all that is needed.

Anything Zoro does, they want the same shit even if they weren't too bothered beforehand.

Fighting Kaido

Beginning of Wano- Nope

Post chapter 1000- "Sanji will make it to rooftop" comments every other chapter.

Getting CoC- Did not give a fuck about for 1000+ chapters.

Post 1033- "you know what, sanji is somewhat of a conqueror himself"



Honestly massively sad at this point.

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

So this is for retaliation against "Sanji will get CoC" threads?

Game on then. The war has already started.

I can debunk this thread in a second but since you are saying that Sanji won't get CoC because there were no hints back in the beginning of the series, I suggest you should reread Baratie arc again.

And my fellow comrades will take care of the rest. This is all I can give you.

 

[DKI]

In the end, it's just another BS power creep that Oda shit on the moment he "weaponized" it and turned it into CoA 2.0.

Yea AdvCoc was an asspull and I still have to swallow it completely.
For me Coc like Shanks'or Big Mom's was enough, it was a power who showed dominance and nothing else, it was not useful combat-wise yet it was powerful.

It's like "rare medals" on Medabots, mega evolutions in Digimon, Bankai in Bleach, etc. They start "rare and hype", but, sooner or later, it spreads like the fucking plague, especially for an author that takes more and more lazy routes as current Oda does.
I dread the day Oda decides to hand CoC to the Admirals and the shit show it's gonna be when Sanji fights one of them. Because, unless there are riots in Japan and people there start hating Sanji, he's fighting an Admiral.

This is why I hope any other Straw Hat (Sanji, Usopp, Nami, whoever) will not get it, because the risk is to svalue it more and more. And for the way Oda portrayed CoC or at least the way I perceived it is that he had clear in mind who the CoC users were since a while and it would have been crucial for the plot. Giving it to the admirals also would be forced, where was their CoC in Marineford? Why someone like Kizaru should have it? I only see Akainu having it.

Zoro has a dream to become the best swordsman since the beginning of the fucking story. There's literally nothing different with the character since the first chapter of the post-TS.
But, instead of throwing a clue or two during big moments like "nothing happened", or maybe when be bowed to Mihawk, no.
Like the copy/pasta character he's become, he gets it right after Luffy.

I agree the way it was revealed Zoro having CoC was kinda bad writing. And overall his personality has been completely slept on by Oda since Thriller Bark basically. As a Zoro fan, this is my greatest remorse, sometimes he seems like a stranger to his own crew, as example i would love to see a Zoro-Nami interaction after 7 years. "The Romance trio" my ass.

 

[Finalbeta]

Obviously.

It takes a very elevated and firm enough will I presume. Also the ability to impose the own persona over a certain contest, although that's not necessarily permanent, but I guess that's what a conqueror also is about fundamentally, or king if you wish, since King is the accurate translation.

 

[Den_Den_Mushi]

So this is for retaliation against "Sanji will get CoC" threads?

Game on then. The war has already started.

I can debunk this thread in a second but since you are saying that Sanji won't get CoC because there were no hints back in the beginning of the series, I suggest you should reread Baratie arc again.

And my fellow comrades will take care of the rest. This is all I can give you.

Not sure how having a crazy dream makes you a conqueror, or demonstrates a desire to be a king. Robin (and now Law) wants to find out the truth about the Void Century. That’s a crazy dream. Nami wants to be the first person to map the entire world, that’s a crazy dream too. Sanji also undermined his own dream multiple times when he gave up on Luffy, trusted in Big Mom over his crew and explicitly declared that it was easy to throw away one’s dream.

Pre and post timeskip are also essentially two different stories with different narrative priorities and writing styles, so I’m only looking at Amazon Lily onwards for indications of the main characters unlocking Conquerors. Trying to dredge up irrelevant stuff from Baratie will not get you far, unless you are also willing to accept that Zeff thinks Mihawk is literally the world’s strongest man. But I’m guessing that’s not the case.

 

[Herrera95]

Perospero is the eldest son and is for sure crucial in the administration of their land. However when it comes to fight is Katakuri who goes to hell to save his lil brothers. Katakuri and Perospero are basically Zoro and Nami (not referred to their strenght but solely on their role in their respective crews).

Chinjao's sole purpose in the story was show how strong the old era pirates were, if he was facing freaking n1 marine of that time there has to be a reason.

Guess Garp wasn't number 1 at time. And again he was defeated with one punch...

Perospero did much more than Katakuri in WCI. Perospero is the one going to hell since he got exploded by Pedro. Katakuri was playing with Luffy on mirror world. He could have just escaped there with Brulee and helped his siblings.

 

[bennbeckman]

Sanji has CoC?