Forum Event Nami vs Crocodile (Zolo vs Marimo) FINISHED

Who was the better debator?

  • MD Zolo

    Votes: 5 50.0%
  • Marimo

    Votes: 5 50.0%

  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .
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Not open for further replies.
M

MD Zolo

#2
I want to start by saying that Nami is a great character and if there is any failure to portray that here, it completely falls upon me. So, apologies to every Nami fan here for the atrocity that I am about to unleash. But to be fair to myself, I did ask Nami fans for tips and all I got was a "good luck note" from Finalbeta (Judges Note: This was an attempt at humor, I better get those humor points mates :optimistic:).

It is very important for the judges, my opponent and Crocodile fans to understand that I hold no negative feelings towards Sir Crocodile. He is a fantastic villain, and though I place Doflamingo as the best villain in One Piece, I will not take away any credit from Crocodile. I also want to point out that while Doflamingo is probably irredeemable as a person, Crocodile does have a chance at redemption. So, Sir Crocodile will be a tough opponent to beat in a Character Contest.

Warning: The following Text contains heavy amounts of Nami Wanking, the only type of Wanking that makes perfect Sense

I went to DeviantArt for this image. I feel like I just returned from Hell
I got into One Piece in 2006 (anime-only) and back then I didn't like Nami all that much. Seeing Luffy and Zoro Chemistry in Orange Town immediately made me fall in love with them, but Nami appeared as a nuisance. I think I started liking her more during the Alabasta saga and I have liked her since then. In 2008, I got my first phone (you know those Java Phones) and I had Nami as my wallpaper. The problem was that Nami was scantily dressed, so my friends mocked me quite hard (Hey!! I couldn't explain that Nami always wore scanty cloths). But I still had it for a long time.

Contrary to the popular notion, analyzing a Main Character is really difficult. Admiral Lee Hung discussed how Sengoku's character stack up against the core themes of the series and what value his arc brought to the story. Wordyworm did the same thing with Perona. Well...you can't do that with a main character. You see, in my opinion, main characters aren't brought in to supplant or challenge the theme of a story rather main characters create the theme of that story. Which means that main characters do not enjoy the same degree of character growth as secondary characters.

So I will just try to explain why I like Nami and I hope it will be enough to make a case for Nami as a great character. After that, I will try to make some quasi-objective analysis based on some parameters.

Why I Like Nami?

So I didn't start One Piece with very high opinion of Nami. But now, I genuinely like Nami. I will try to explain this change in opinion (in no order) as much as I can:

Nami had a substantial Character Growth
This was Nami at the beginning of the series (Chapter 09):
This was Nami at Whiskey Peak (Chapter 113):
This was Nami in Skypeia (Chapter 282):
This was Nami in Whole Cake Island (Chapter 844):
What do these panels tell us? These panels tell us of an evolution. At the beginning, Nami was a burglar who didn't think of Luffy as anything more than a plunderer and hated all pirates. And even after Luffy saved her and her entire village, she was willing to leave him as soon as she realized that they may have to face a Shichibukai. Then, in Skypeia, when she was placed with similar choice, she rejected it, finally embracing the danger comes with being a Straw Hat. In Whole Cake Island, we saw another growth when she potentially overcame her (possibly romantic) feelings for Sanji for her and her captain's dreams. I don't know about others, but to me, it is sign of a gradual progression from hatred to friendship to respect.

Also think about it in another light. In Whiskey Peak, she wanted to leave the crew in fear of Crocodile. But now, she knows that she is up against two of the most influential pirates of the entire World and she is still fighting the good fight. It is easy to dismiss this by saying that Nami is still a coward. But courage is not being unafraid, courage is the ability to take action despite being afraid.

Character growth is usually difficult to spot for main characters, because as I have said before, story is written around the main characters where the main characters remain constant and they change everything and everyone around them to suit their ideology. However, for Nami, there is clear character growth.

Nami brings out the best in other characters from a Reader's perspective
Okay, this logic is going to sound weird, but I like it. So, I will try to explain here:

Nami's personality blends perfectly with other Straw Hats and complements or supplants them. This means that Nami as a character does not appear as intrusive in the story, rather seems a natural and integral part of the story. This is an very important point because many female protagonists do feel intrusive in the story.

Think about it. Nami's cautious and careful attitude intensifies Luffy and Zoro's carefree attitude. For example, when Nami is scared shitless about the upcoming assault from Crocodile, Luffy and Zoro are elated to be on somebody's hit list.
Similar to how darkness helps us to perceive light, Nami's cautious and fearful behavior helps us to appreciate Luffy and Zoro. In the same vain, Nami's angry and loud disposition helps us to appreciate Robin's calm and quiet nature. Her manipulative behavior intensifies Sanji's chivalry while her fear also helps us to understand Ussop and Chopper.

Nami is a self-dependent female protagonist
Some people are gonna laugh really hard at the above headline, but it is completely true. Considering female leads of the other two of the big 3 (Sakura Haruno of Naruto and Orihime Inuoe of Bleach), Nami is far more self-dependent. While Nami is weak in terms of fighting or defending herself, she doesn't come up as a burden on the male protagonist(s) of the series like the other two does (sorry Sakura fans).

Basically, what I am trying to say is that Nami is not a Cry-baby who basically emotionally blackmails the male protagonist all the time. She is a sassy-mouth, greedy bi*ch who will tear apart a guy smiling without moving a muscle. The only two times Nami was portraying as emotionally taxing Luffy was when Robin and Sanji left the crew and even then it was never in the same vain as some other female leads of other manga.

Nami is free from the regular protagonistic burden
I thoroughly read Wordyworm's and Admiral Lee Hung's arguments and both of them kept bringing up how the theme of One Piece is "freedom". But is it true? In a sense, may be! But consider this: Luffy is actually trapped by his goal and Zoro is trapped by his goal. Luffy has made a promise to Shanks to become Pirate King and now he has to do whatever it takes, including dying, to achieve it. Zoro made a promise to Kuina about becoming World's Strongest Swordsman and now he will do whatever it takes, including dying, to achieve it. Their lives are defined by their goals. Consequently, you see Luffy spamming "I will be the man who will be Pirate King" or Zoro (comparatively less) spamming "I am gonna be the World's Strongest Swordsman".

I can't remember the last time Nami said that "I will be girl who will map the entire world". She has an amazing ambition, probably the hardest among all straw hats but she is not trapped by it. Wherever she goes, she quietly makes map of the place and enjoys the whole thing in the background.

I really love how she is NOT burdened by her goal, rather it is something she truly and really enjoys doing. Lack of cliche is always a good sign for a character I believe.

Nami is not a Damsel in Distress who needs saving
I know that this one is going to be contested hard by my opponent. But hear me out:

Nami has been on her own since she was 8 years old. She stole and conned her way into the world. That was all her. She never needed saving. Most recently, in the Onigashima raid, she got captured and we all thought (me included) that Nami will be saved by Sanji. But to my surprise:
She could always escape and she actually hatched a plan to have Momo rescued by Shinobu while she kept Big Mom distracted. She has been proven to be more than just a sexual figure over and over again. In fact, in the early days of One Piece, she used to hold a lot of command over the crew in the sea.

I have actually noticed something. Nami is only treated as a damsel in distress by one person and that person is Sanji. So, whenever Sanji is paired with Nami, it feels like Nami is a damsel in distress. But when Nami is paired Luffy (e.g. Enel. Cracker), she feels as somebody who has more to offer. So, Nami is not a damsel in distress. Yes, sometimes she gets in trouble (e.g. Absalom) and requires saving, but that type of thing happens to everybody.

The fact that she is not portrayed as a damsel in distress is very important because very few other women in One Piece (if any) have received similar portrayal. Considering how we want our characters to be self-dependent and not some annoying girl for the hero to save, it speaks volumes about Nami as a character.

Nami is not a Mary Sue type Good Person
Nami is a burglar and a pirate who is greedy. Yes, she is a good person. But her goodness of heart is not overt unlike some other female protagonists introduced in the series e.g. Vivi, Conis, Shirahoshi or Rebecca. The fact that she left her village after robbing all of the people, or demanded 1 billion berries to save Alabasta are just some of the times Nami made me happy. She will also manipulate Sanji into being her slave all the time. I can't find the panels, but Nami has been referred to as "horrible woman" many times in the series.

Many female protagonists are given this persona that they are most kind, most self-sacrificing person ever and they want to bear the burden of everybody. Nami has never been portrayed as such (exception: Arlong Park Arc), that made her endearing to me.

She has been more natural and less like some goddess/princess who is getting heartache seeing people suffer. She has helped people, sometimes with her life on the line, but she has never appeared to be unnatural or deity-like persona that generates cringe among experienced readers.

Nami has huge future potential
You may ask, what does "future potential" got to do with a character's quality? Well...a lot actually. Think about it!!! Crocodile doesn't have much room (well...he has more room than say, Doflamingo) for further exposure about the character. But Nami...there is a lot of potential there.

Some say that Whole Cake Island was one of the best arc for Nami's character. Then, imagine if there was some arc based on Nami's extended past (similar to Sanji's or potentially Zoro's). That could open up new dimensions into the character. If WCI was able to flesh out Nami, how much fleshing out can you expect in her own arc (if it happened)?

Or forget about her past. Think about it like this: No one has ever reached Laugh Tale without the Road Poneglyphs. Why? Because it is not easily reached and a special map is needed to reach it. In another words, special navigational skills beyond the normal may be needed (similar to Skypeia). What if the challenge is too much for our young navigator, what if she starts to doubt her capabilities, will that lead to some character growth? There is a lot of potential.

You can't get that type of potential with many characters in OP. Yes, Nami does have an advantage of being a main character but still. You can't similar potential for Brook or Sanji anymore. A great character always leaves room for exposure and more growth.

Anyway, I actually only ended up comparing Nami to a regular female protagonists based on the anime/manga I have watched/read. I will be more in line with the focus of the discussion in the next post.

I will make an Quasi-objective Analysis after @Marimo_420's response

I apologize for the following things:
  1. Not being able to properly convey my thoughts
  2. Not being able to bring up the best features of the character
  3. Writing a long essay.
I will be more organized in the next post.
 
#3
Disclaimers are such greats tools are they not? It would be foolish for me not to follow through to get on the good side of both sets of fans.
My post may contain some Nami deconstruction, and slight bashing that you may or may not find toxic, or at the very least may perceive it in a bad light. If you feel as though you may get upset but choose to go beyond this point and read it anyways then that's on you. If you have ignored my only warning and actually got triggered then.....

Lmao I'm just playing guys, @MD Zolo has mounted a solid defence on behalf of Nami. I know for a fact I wouldn't have been able to do an analysis on that level for one of the best girls in one piece.
:catsweat:

Now without furthur ado, Here. We. Go.

The king of class, the absolute peak of piracy, Top 2 villain and he ain't number 2- Sir Crocodile makes his appearance on this small time stage of a tournament.


I believe Sir Crocodile is by far the best written, fleshed out, competent, and realistic villain within the whole series of One Piece.

The insane build-up we get before his arc (Alabasta), the threat level that exceptionally increases when he does inevitably make his first appearance, the most dire of situations for the strawhats when the mc- Luffy gets bodied not once but twice before the final showdown, and the peak feeling of despair that we as readers experience due to all of this in such a well paced arc, could have only been achieved with someone like Crocodile as the driving force at the center.

Shockingly enough, he manages to do all of this while donning a classy businessman suit, accompanied with his massive fur coat which he chooses to do so in a desert country of all places. He is also equipped with a gigantic hook arm and a scarred face which is a nice aesthetic touch.

His design choice itself is very serious comparatively speaking with previous and latter arc villains who either looked like clowns or had some sort of weird quirks about them e.g. see Buggy, Alvida, Kuro, Wapol, Moriah etc. It's quite clear that Oda had planned for him to become remarkable right from the start.

Crocodile as a villain
We need to take a look at what makes Crocodile so truly special for being one of the earliest villains to be introduced in the OP timeline.

I would like to talk about 4 things as to why crocodile excels as a character and at being an antagonist. These are-
  • His massive buildup and reveal
  • What he embodies
  • His competency at what he does
  • His overall impact to the story
His build up-
Previous antagonists before Crocodile tended to be one-shot villains without really having much of an impact (excluding buggy comedy moments later on in the series). They tended to restrict their menace as a local threat usually being a mini-rival to whoever Luffy is going to recruit to his crew in that arc. The likes of Buggy, Arlong, Wapol, Don Krieg and Kuro are all good villains for what they are,, but Crocodile was built up differently. He a whole different breed.


See, before we talk about Crocodile, we need to talk a bit about some previous arcs. The existence of the Shichibukai - the Seven Warlords of the Sea - had been hinted at since the start of Baratie arc, when this mysterious and overwhelmingly strong pirate Mihawk flexes merely a tiny bit of his power and shows the secondary mc - Zoro where he stands. Due to this, we are already being made weary of the title of Shichibukai. The Shichibukai are then further developed when the next arc villain, the fish-man Arlong, is noted to have some sort of connection with Jinbe, another member of the 7. So when his code-name, real name and his status as a Shichibukai is then finally revealed on top of Wisky Peak , we as readers can't help but feel apprehensive, even if it was somewhat portrayed in a semi- comedic fashion.

Then with the introduction of the higher tiered number pairs who are increasing in strength by strength every arc, and the ever rising danger that they brought along with them, we come to appreciate the boss's poweress before we even get to meet him.

And when we did finally get a face reveal, he makes a grand entrance by intimidating his seasoned recruits just with his mere presence. Oda does a fantastic job accumulating Crocodile's threat up until that point, and he keeps it at that level consistently for the rest of the arc.



This is evident whenever Crocodile appears on screen, and is especially true when Crocodile delivers one of the most devastating loss in Luffy's career and his first ever loss of the entire series. The ease of which Luffy gets defeated is what truly cemented Crocodile as a massive threat and as an iconic villain. Crocodile truly pushed out the limits of how stupidly strong a character could be so early on in the manga with his sand logia df (remember we had no haki at this point). He showed the "gap" between rookies like the mc and the elites like himself very clearly, which sets him apart from all previous arc villains, and also numerous latter villains who don't get the luxury of multiple rounds/ or handing multiples Ls against Luffy. He's a cut above the rest.


This line and loss sets the tone for the rest of the arc as well as the rest of the paradise half of the grand line. Crocoboy a GOAT.
He's also what a true pirate should be-

Crocodile is a perfect image of what a true pirate (with a little dash of mafia) should act like in a series which is so often morally grey for both parties of pirates and marines alike. I mean even the mc and his crew aren't in the slightest bit what you would traditionally associate with the word- pirates.

Sir crocodile however, is a crooked man through and through. He's a sadistic, opportunistic, power driven man who hesitates at nothing to get what be desires regardless of the consequences to others surrounding him. He enjoying inflicting mental torture to all those who oppose him, be it luffy (with the Yuba scenario- see above) , the royals of Alabasta and most notably to Princess Vivi at every chance he can get. This in turn makes his defeat one of the most satisfactory moments in the series, which again makes him a great villain and a proper pirate. Every little emotion, and every other action he takes just adds just a little bit more depth to his character.

Sir Crocodile embodies all that is evil about pirates, as opposed to the romanticised carefree and downright unrealistic adventure that Luffy does. Crocodile is a criminal, pure and simple. Yes, all pirates are criminals to one point or other, but Crocodile is just so cynical and pragmatic, and views all his minions as, well, minions instead of actual partners or allies. Crocodile just treats his minions as pawns, and his minions understand that just as well to a T. After all, it's strictly business.



He has no attachment to anyone recruited into his of his organisation. None whatsoever. This is also true and evident for his so called "trusted associates" (the strongest numbered pairs) with even his most trusted partner in "Miss all Sunday", he wouldn't hesitate to kill or torture if they do not guarantee him results or the outcomes he so wished for. He would even threaten to kill on a whim or from just simple annoyance. Again, it highlights his villainous personality, while making him that much more of a threat. This is somewhat different from the earlier villains that we are used to seeing where comradeship or decent relationship within their own crew was maintained e.g. see Buggy and Arlong.







Absolutely ruthless. "I never trusted anyone from the start"
:finally:

Other traits include being an arrogant prick who has a semi god complex, which he had every right to be at that point in time. This is due to his logia powers /intangiblity against non haki users in paradise, and his massive competency as a villain, which takes me to my next little bit.

Crocodile's competency is probably the best among all op villains.
Crocodile is the most competent antagonist in this long ongoing series of One piece, with only Doflamingo ever coming close.

While other villains may have been smart, they were not on the level of Crocoboy. Not even close.
Crocodile had already infiltrated the country of Alabasta and was seizing more and more control over the said country before the protagonists had even arrived. This was a long drawn out process in which the impatient Crocodile was patient enough to go through with, all for the sake of gaining massive military might (Pluton).

He was running a successful crime syndicate, ruining the country of Alabasta from within the shadow (via sandstorms and dance powder), performing the perfect good guy pirate act while pretending to be a dog of the World Government and throwing massive suspicion towards the royal family. He incited a civil war in which he would come out as the only victor. He played everyone around him like a fiddle and he did it with so much class, it came off as natural for him. It was never forced, just effortless which again shows how solid his overall character is.

In one of his more petty acts, (there are lots lol) he sends sandstorms near enough on a daily to Khoza's father just because he doesn't like his existence. Let me remind you- Crocoboy finds time to do these petty actions while he's busy doing his daily hero act and running his own mafia. What an absolute prick. What an absolutely piratey thing to do. What unparalleled capability. No other antagonist comes close. (Doflamingo).

His sense of recruitment and information gathering are also showcased to be top notch, which further highlights his intelligence. He knows that Pluton's location exists within Alabasta. He knows only Robin could ever read such ancient writings. He also knows a person of Bon Clay's ability is required to throw suspicion at the royals. He hand picks gathers each one carefully, and fools them all in the name of a false Utopia that doesn't exist. For him they were merely tools to gain his one true objective. Again, very competent.

This is consistent for his character all throughout the duration of Alabasta arc from start to finish, where we find out he had a multilayered contingency plan in place via the watchtower bomb, the Mr 7 pair and by making the bomb timed just in case it could have been stopped; and also for just that tiny little bit of extra mental torture. Sadistic af. And he would have actually succeeded in his primary goal, if not for the existence of the Will of P. The antagonist that came closet to achieving his goals as a villain, that is Sir Crocodile.








No other antagonist bar Doflamingo has been shown the ability to overturn an entire country on it's head, and he did it via the power of Sugar's OP df while Crocodile did it own his own. Other antagonist hasn't really shown to be on that calibre, as they either rule through brute force, hax or political power as opposed to using their wits. They both a different breed.


Story Impact as a Character
But wait there's more.

With the actual introduction of the of the character Crocodile, we are introduced to a wide range of the OP world lore and we start looking at the world of OP in a renewed perspective.

Crocoboy is what you would call a pioneer of some sorts.
With his arc, we are introduced to 2 little tibets that massively widen up the story. These inlclude-
  • First Shichibukai to be explored
  • Poneglyphs and the existence of ancient weapons - Robin

7 thugs-
With Crocodile being the first Shichibukai to be properly introduced and have an arc centred around him, we come to understand how high of a threat the 7 pirates carry and what being one actually entails. Crocodiles hypes up the warlords for the future of the crew's journey for when they inevitability cross paths with the other members. ( see Moriah and Kuma). By fleshing out Crocodile's Character and poweress it ensures that the other warlords don't need as much of a build up, and the title of Shichibukai itself can carry them.


Poneglyphs-
Crocodile's master plan was to obtain the poneglyph that the Alabasta royal family kept, which would lead him to Pluton, one of the three ancient weapons. The poneglyphs, void century and the 3 ancient weapons have been a pivotal part of the story from that moment onward and till this day, which only increases in importance the further we go along in the manga (road poneglyphs and Raftel). We start to ask the questions, make speculations and start to get excited whenever a poneglyph is hinted or shown, much like one of our beloved mcs- Robin, an enemy turned ally. She will one day read the road poneglyphs that will show the way to Raftel, and find the true history of the world.



All of this however, are direct consequences or mere by products of Crocodile just simply existing. So remember folks, when Luffy finally becomes the Pirate King, you can thank Sir Crocodile for recruiting the plot device that is Nico Robin into his team. He is the sole reason why the mc will achieve his dream. Thanks a lot, Mr Croc!!!

:pepedoffy:



I can't be asked to write on the Croc's behalf anymore so I will try and break down the formidable wall that Zolo has put up on Nami's defence. While I agree with most of what Zolo has written, I find some of his evidence a bit too subjective.

What do these panels tell us? These panels tell us of an evolution. At the beginning, Nami was a burglar who didn't think of Luffy as anything more than a plunderer and hated all pirates. And even after Luffy saved her and her entire village, she was willing to leave him as soon as she realized that they may have to face a Shichibukai. Then, in Skypeia, when she was placed with similar choice, she rejected it, finally embracing the danger comes with being a Straw Hat. In Whole Cake Island, we saw another growth when she potentially overcame her (possibly romantic) feelings for Sanji for her and her captain's dreams. I don't know about others, but to me, it is sign of a gradual progression from hatred to friendship to respect.
You may ask, what does "future potential" got to do with a character's quality? Well...a lot actually. Think about it!!! Crocodile doesn't have much room (well...he has more room than say, Doflamingo) for further exposure about the character. But Nami...there is a lot of potential there.
Yes Nami does have far more future potential than Crocodile as she's a core part of the manga itself. She has a lot more time to be fleshed out and explored than possibly 98 percent of the one piece cast. However that longevity and focus does come with a steep price.

Her character growth that you've mentioned for WCI scan which yes you've alluded to the fact is just a mere possibility, I think would it would be fair to say it was more than just a bit of a stretch. ( Oda himself has said there will be no romance in the crew, and that paring seems very one sided on Sanji's part)

I believe I understand why you tired to do that. Most of the strawhats including Nami have been stagnant in terms of character growth after the time-skip, and some have downright regressed (Chopper/ Usopp). While her pre time-skip growth is absolutely fantastic, particularity from her introduction to the Skypiea arc (which again you have mentioned), where do you go from there? She has already completed her character arc back then, and has remained somewhat consistent, but even the time skip did nothing to change her personality.

Arguably even Crocodile goes through his own solid character development phase, which is less stale than Nami as consequence of him being less prominent in the manga. He goes from being this sadistic, calculating individual to being a less sadistic, and calculating individual. Cocroboy seems to have mellowed out massively following his defeat at the hands of someone who he had branded a "greenhorn". He seems to at least hold a bit more value towards comradeship or is it just towards Mr 1?


Regardless, he isn't a man who at the start of Alabasta would have accepted any sort of failure. By asking Daz to join him once more, and by going to the new world together, this is a massive change in demeanour and personality for someone like the Croc.
This change was probably due to some sort of deep self realisation he came to in his time spent in Impael Down. Also, due to witnessing Whitebeard's fragility in the Battle of Marineford and later on his death he overcame whatever barriers that were holding him back, and now has plans to return to "the sweet old new world"
Daz even manages to poke fun at Crocodile without the Croc snappig back, unlike with Robin back at Alabasta.

It's strong swift and great character development.


Lack of focus on Nami's dream-
Another problem that I have with present time Nami is that her dreams are hardly ever mentioned anymore after the time skip. I cannot recall the last time I have seen her draw a map, actively or in the background. Nor is she ever shown to be as excited to visit new islands and geographical venues like she did back in the good old days. We have also yet to witness her making off hand comments about the structures of new islands that the crew visits. Yes the plot is getting more and more hectic but is shafting one of your main character's dream really worth it?

Noways, only her navigation skills seem to be shining since it's almost always mentioned at varying degrees, be it the new world log poses, or by bizarre entrances to new places etc etc. However, her real dream of drawing a world map seems to be suffering. Navigation is a fundamental part of it yes, but seeing her actively drawing a map would be nice once in a while. Her overall character seems to be suffering because it's the same old Nami with less focus on her dream. The other members of the crew at least have some sort of mention, are shown to be actively pursuing it, or have an off handed comment regarding their main goals, yet it's virtually non- existent for someone so integral to the story like Nami.


Regarding the topic of future potential-
The croc may not have a strong case for future potential, but his future ties and secrets make him a very interesting character in comparison to Nami. With Nami, we pretty much know everything to do with her, and her background isn't really a cause for speculation.

Whereas with Sir Crocodile, the speculations are endless. What favour does he owe Ivankov? What secret does Ivankov know of his that he's so desperate to hide? Does he in turn have links to the revolutionary army? Does he know them? Dragon? Sabo? Does Robin know more via the time-skip???? Where and when will Crocodile appear next? What moves will he be making? And was the Sir actually a Madame ?
:sus::sus::sus:

These are levels that Nami cannot compete with, this the gap between the two pirates, and this - this is the level of the Shichibukai.
:pepedoffy:



I agree mostly with everything else Zolo has written and provided but I will probably quote some more in my next post if I have the time. i just want to get this first post out of the way now.

In conclusion, Crocodile is a solid multilayered character that more than fulfils his role as an antagonist, who undergoes great character development, while the air of mystery surrounding him form the latter arcs keeps him relevant to this day. He keeps us guessing.

Nami is obviously a strong character no doubt, since she's one of the 3 core strawhats. However, like most of the crew she has grown stagnant as a character, and is starting to get a bit stale.

Due to this, I would have to say Crocodile mid diffs her based on his consistent and ever evolving character.

 
Last edited:
M

MD Zolo

#4
This will be a longer post than the first one. Apologies for that. The post will be divided into two parts
The First Part of this post will try to rebut some of my opponent's points
The king of class, the absolute peak of piracy, Top 2 villain and he ain't number 2- Sir Crocodile makes his appearance on this small time stage of a tournament.
Well...he is No. 2 :kayneshrug:.

Seriously though, most of your points are meant to enforce that Crocodile is an amazing, highly competent, high significant VILLAIN. I agree completely (except, Doflamingo is better). But this contest is NOT about the BEST VILLAIN, it is about the BEST CHARACTER. Crocodile falls apart except his villainy. Doflamingo still has a layer to him beside his villainy (e.g. he is quiet affectionate towards his immediate family and that is really weird considering he killed his father and brother). But Crocodile doesn't have many layers or nuances to him yet. If Villainy is supposed to define Crocodile, then is he not replaceable by a stronger Captain Kuro or Donquixote Doflamingo?

Crocodile is a perfect image of what a true pirate (with a little dash of mafia) should act like in a series which is so often morally grey for both parties of pirates and marines alike. I mean even the mc and his crew aren't in the slightest bit what you would traditionally associate with the word- pirates.
Yes!!! I agree. He was the most pirate-like pirate I had seen till his return in Impel Down. But you should also acknowledge that a pirate organization cannot be run by cruelty alone. He has zero disregard for any member of his crew which means that when compared to someone like Doflamingo, he will end up with less loyal crew. Secondly, historically not pirates were rapists and plunderers IRL. So, while is absolute evil aspect is entertaining, it didn't stand out from someone like Captain Kuro.

Crocodile's master plan was to obtain the poneglyph that the Alabasta royal family kept, which would lead him to Pluton, one of the three ancient weapons. The poneglyphs, void century and the 3 ancient weapons have been a pivotal part of the story from that moment onward and till this day, which only increases in importance the further we go along in the manga (road poneglyphs and Raftel). We start to ask the questions, make speculations and start to get excited whenever a poneglyph is hinted or shown, much like one of our beloved mcs- Robin, an enemy turned ally. She will one day read the road poneglyphs that will show the way to Raftel.

All of this however, are direct consequences or mere by products of Crocodile just simply existing. So remember folks, when Luffy finally becomes the Pirate King, you can thank Sir Crocodile for recruiting the plot device that is Nico Robin into his team. He is the sole reason why the mc will achieve his dream. Thanks a lot, Mr Croc!!!
Question is: how much does this add to Crocodile's character? I don't think it adds anything to Crocodile.

I believe I understand why you tired to do that. Most of the strawhats including Nami have been stagnant in terms of character growth after the time-skip, and some have downright regressed (Chopper/ Usopp). While her pre time-skip growth is absolutely fantastic, particularity from her introduction to the Skypiea arc (which again you have mentioned), where do you go from there? She has already completed her character arc back then, and has remained somewhat consistent, but even the time skip did nothing to change her personality.
While it is really difficult to find character growth Post-TS, as a whole, Nami has had significant character growth. If we were analyzing only Post-TS Nami, it would be more difficult for me to say that. But as a whole, Nami enjoys great progression. Also, it may seem subtle, but Nami has mellowed out a lot and gained a lot of respect for Luffy post-TS. She has been less violent towards Luffy and as I have said before, she respects her captain enough to slap Sanji. I don't think, pre-TS, Nami held the same degree of respect for Luffy.

Another problem that I have with present time Nami is that her dreams are hardly ever mentioned anymore after the time skip. I cannot recall the last time I have seen her draw a map, actively or in the background. Nor is she ever shown to be as excited to visit new islands and geographical venues like she did back in the good old days. We have also yet to witness her making off hand comments about the structures of new islands that the crew visits. Yes the plot is getting more and more hectic but is shafting one of your main character's dream really worth it?

Noways, only her navigation skills seem to be shining since it's almost always mentioned at varying degrees, be it the new world log poses, or by bizarre entrances to new places etc etc. However, her real dream of drawing a world map seems to be suffering. Navigation is a fundamental part of it yes, but seeing her actively drawing a map would be nice once in a while. Her overall character seems to be suffering because it's the same old Nami with less focus on her dream. The other members of the crew at least have some sort of mention, are shown to be actively pursuing it, or have an off handed comment regarding their main goals, yet it's virtually non- existent for someone so integral to the story like Nami.
Oda said that Nami always makes map when she has free time. Post-TS has been a roller-coaster with the Straw hats going from Punk Hazard to Dressrosa and then immediately to Zou, immediately followed by WCI and now Wano. And it has been an affair of adrenaline rush. But as per Oda, you should know that if Nami has free time, she is making maps.

I have discussed this before, but I want to stress again. The fact that Nami doesn't spam her dream is an indication that Nami is not burdened by her dream unlike Luffy and Zoro. Luffy and Zoro are trapped by their dream, they need to achieve it because they have made a promise to people dear to them. But Nami is not trapped inside her dream, making her a different breed of protagonist.
<Rebuttal is done>

The Second Part of this post will be a quasi -objective analysis of Nami compared to Sir Crocodile. Please note that this quasi-objective analysis by no means the be-all and end-all analysis, rather it is something I made up to strengthen my argument

In this analysis, I would like to evaluate Nami and compare her with Sir Crocodile in terms of the following parameters:
  1. Notable Character Traits
  2. Significance to the Story
  3. Character Growth
Notable Character Traits
Is Nami’s character more faceted (i.e. contains more dimensions) than Sir Crocodile’s character? To find out, we should discuss some of Nami’s character traits.

Bossy
One of the most endearing traits of Nami is that she likes to order people around. She even make people work for her without having to get angry [only Sanji and may be Zeus(?)]. She also controls the treasures/money of the Straw Hats and provides allowances to the crew members as she sees fit.
But there is another way of looking at this. Her bossyness is indicative that Nami has considerable Leadership skill. Her bossy attitude has saved the Straw Hats fair bits of times too, hasn’t it? So, there are two dimensions to this trait of hers.





Hot-tempered
The fact that Nami is easily angered is so well-known to everybody who reads One Piece, that it requires no further explanation or manga panels for that matter. We know how often she gets angry at Luffy, Zoro and Sanji for causing trouble or not following instructions.




But it also means that Nami is highly expressive. She isn’t the quiet and tolerating type, if she thinks somebody is doing stupid things or up to nonsense, she will burst out without a second thought.

Greedy
Even though Nami is a genuinely good person, she is not a virtue-signaling person. In her introduction chapter, she boldly declared that she loves money. Over the course of the manga, she has shown her greed for money over and over again.

But what does that greed imply? We all understand that her greed is a reminder of her past when her family was penniless. So, her greed is not just greed (such as that of a villain like Crocodile), it is an indicator of an imperfect character that desires the things she didn’t get as a child and many will be able to relate to that.

Cunning
It has been stated that Nami is the third-most brilliant person from East Blue, behind only Benn Beckman and Captain Kuro. Her cunning has been on show when she was first introduced and duped three unsuspecting crews of Buggy the Clown or when she plotted to sell out Luffy to Buggy.

Loyal
I discussed this aspect in the first post. So, I won’t go over it again in details. But loyalty is one of the traits that Nami developed over the course of the manga slowly as seen from Chapter 09 to Chapter 844.

Caring and kind
This has been on display numerous times in the manga. Most notably she worked strenuously for 10 years to buyback her village and release all villagers from their suffering, despite the villagers' display of hatred towards her. After Time-skip, we saw Nami becoming concerned with the kidnapped children and deciding to help them when even Sanji (who is usually considered to be kindest of all Straw Hats) wasn't interested in helping them (Chapter 658).

Fair
In Fishmen Island, one of the defining moment of Nami’s character was when she forgave Jinbei for the suffering she went through as a child in the hand of Arlong. But she didn’t forgive Arlong. Nor did she ever forgive Ceaser Clown. Again, she forgave Sanji even though she said that she never would.






So...How do they stack up?...
Now, Crocodile isn’t an empty bag either. He is cunning, greedy, calculating, highly competent, unforgiving among others. But here’s the difference: Crocodile’s character traits are always used to show off his villainy. There is rarely a moment where Crocodile feels like a complex character with good and the bad, the serious and the goofy (My opponent has portrayed Crocodile as a completely serious villain with no nuances). Nami’s trait portray her as a good person with a tinge of bad and with various subtle complexities that are absent from Crocodile’s character.

Winner: Nami (In my opinion), for having diverse traits that blend to give shape to a balanced character with both brilliance and flaws

Significance to the Story
Is Nami more significant to the story than Crocodile? That is the question we will answer in this section.

Core of One Piece
I sourced this from Arlong Park Forum, so I apologize if there is any mistake but apparently In Colorwalk 1 (2001), Oda said that “Luffy, Zoro, Nami, for now, the triggers/denonators…”. I can’t find the full translation, so I can’t give you anything more. However, it seems that Oda considered Nami to be one of the most important characters of the story (at that point at least).

This is important because initially Oda didn’t intend to run the manga for 30 years and it was much shorter in scope. So, when Oda says that Luffy, Zoro and Nami are the triggers all the way back in 2001, it basically means that Nami was an important character in that original story. Crocodile on the other hand, was the result of Oda’s decision to expand the story (as with other Shichibukai bar Mihawk).

Nami was slated to be the first Straw hat to join
I am not equipped to provide a long discussion on this topic and therefore I will seek help from Artur (https://thelibraryofohara.com/2015/...l-3-the-truth-about-namis-past-one-piece-beta). I know that Artur does add embellishments, and that probably happened in the article linked here but the evidence is irrefutable. The various versions of Romance Dawn and Nami’s presence in the cover of the first chapter are sufficient evidence to conclude the following:

Nami was the second character Oda properly designed (first being Luffy) and she was meant to be the very first straw hat to join.

Significance in the current story
Okay…so the above two points discuss what could’ve been and I know that cannot sufficient to satiate you. So, let’s discuss how important Nami has been in the story that we know and love (?) [we do love it, right?].
  • East Blue Saga: Nami’s arc was probably the highlight of the East Blue saga. Her character development was also the most impactful part of the saga (she is the only one who actually had any development). Orange Town, Syrup village and Baratie were all leading to Nami’s arc. Therefore, she was monumental in the East Blue Saga.
  • Alabasta Saga: Nami was a significant character in Alabasta, specially since she appeared to be the anchor for Vivi, the main secondary character of that Saga. Furthermore, her presence actually propelled Drum Island arc.
  • Skypeia Saga: Nami was the reason why the Straw Hats were able to go to Skypeia in the first place. In addition, Nami was also the part of the trio when they met Blackbeard and got humiliated by Bellamy. Skypeia also focused a lot on Nami’s character growth, making her the second most important Straw hat in that saga.
  • Water 7 Saga: While Robin, Franky and Ussop were the MVPs of this arc, Nami wasn’t a background character. For example, it was Nami who ordered Luffy to shake off his sorrow and take back Robin.
  • Thriller Bark Saga: Yeah! She didn’t do much here, but come on!! She can’t get highlights in every arc. Besides, it was Zoro’s arc. Nothing could be done here.
  • Summit War Saga: I think we can forgive Nami having nothing in this saga. Coincidentally enough, Crocodile got a lot to do in this Saga.
  • Fishmen Island Saga: Okay! Nami didn’t play any significant role here either. Her interaction with Jinbei was character defining, but not significant to the story.
  • Dressrosa Saga: She played an important role in the Punk Hazard by deciding to help the children. Though, it wasn’t that significant.
  • Whole Cake Island Saga: Nami played a massive role in this arc. She basically served as Luffy’s anchor in this arc. She had a lot of character development, helped Luffy on multiple occasions and basically acted like the Vice-Captain of the Straw Hats (in absence of the real Vice-Captain, if you know what I mean).
So...how do they stack up?...
You may say that this parameter is biased – a main character will always have more significance to the story than a secondary character – so it cannot be a good parameter for judgement. But that is not always true. For example, Chopper has been less significant to the story than Crocodile. But Nami has played significant roles in a number of arcs.

Crocodile has contributed to the overall story significantly. Alabasta was probably the point when OP became popular and Crocodile was a big part of that. His fall in Alabasta also inspired the subsequent events during Pre-TS. Crocodile also saved Luffy during Marineford, which is also significant.

Winner:I will consider this as a Tie. However, it must be noted that Crocodile’s importance in the story was intensified by the actions of other characters in the story. But Nami’s importance in the story is solely attributed to Nami.

Character Growth
I have talked about Nami’s character growth to some extent in my first post. So, let me reiterate it in short:

Hatred turns into Respect
Nami was hateful towards all pirates, but now she has a clearer picture and understands that not all pirates are bad. She has grown immense respect for a person she considered as a worthless plunderer.

Useful Ally turns into Dear Friends
First time Nami met Luffy, she used him as a tool to get close to Buggy. She even confessed that she was using Straw Hats for own benefits in Arlong Park. But now she views her comrades as genuine friends which was on display when Robin was taken or when she heard of Ace’s death or when Sanji left.

Hot-head becomes less(?) of a Hot-head
Compared to Pre-TS Nami, Post-TS Nami is a lot calmer and doesn’t beat up Luffy as much as she used to. [May she was hormonal in Pre-TS !!! Apologies to all ladies here]. She still beats up Sanji though, but that’s 100% Sanji’s fault.

So, how do they stack up?...
So, Nami has changed over the course of the story. But what about Crocodile? Crocodile started out as an ambitious pirate wanting to be the best in the world and then got beaten by WB. He then became obsessed with power and that led to his downfall. Now, he has again set sail with his original goal in the same manner as his younger self. That is not Character Growth, that is completing a 360⁰ to return to the beginning.

Winner:Nami (in my opinion), for actually having character growth as opposed to coming full circle

<Quasi-Objective Analysis is done>
However, the big question is this....
If you had to give up either Nami or Sir Crocodile from the story, who would you remove?

We have Enel, Doflamingo and Lucci who incorporates many of Crocodile’s traits (except the Businessmen suit, but Lucci's suit is better than Crocodile's :kayneshrug:). Obviously they are all different individuals, but we can get a certain amount Crocodile drug from the above-mentioned villains. But...

Does the story have a replacement of Nami in it?

I don’t see any replacement for Nami in the story. No straw hat can fill the role of Nami in the story. Yes…Ussop and Chopper can fill the role of scaredy-cats. But her care, her temper, her greed are unparalleled among every other Straw Hats. Mix all her traits together, you can’t find a single character in One Piece who can reasonably fill up the gap left by Nami.

Her presence in the story will make you laugh, either through her own silliness or due to the goofiness of others. Without her presence in the Straw hats, it will surely be a lot more boring compared to not having Crocodile in it.

Most Importantly
I am defending the best girl of One Piece:
Against this guy (who is a pretty good villain):

So...WG boys!!! Unite and Defend our Best Girl against this Vile Villain!!!

Thank you for an enjoyable Debate. No doubt Crocodile is an amazing villain.
 
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#5
Firstly, I've edited some vocab and added more panels to support my ideas in the first post, so if the judges could read it over again I would appreciate it. Don't worry, no new arguments have been added in the first, just good ol panels. It doesn't affect Zolo's second post in the slighest but I hope it does affect my points in a positive fashion.
:catpole:


Now I've pretty much said what I've wanted to say on Crocodile's behalf as a character so this post will just be all rebuttals and subjective views from me to the above post of Zolo. Anymore fleshing out I would like to do would take me too long to write.

Just seeing that massive wall of text of Nami defence depresses me, but I will try to do my upmost best to break it down.



Now time for my subjective Rebuttals
:finally:
Well...he is No. 2 :kayneshrug:.

Seriously though, most of your points are meant to enforce that Crocodile is an amazing, highly competent, high significant VILLAIN. I agree completely (except, Doflamingo is better). But this contest is NOT about the BEST VILLAIN, it is about the BEST CHARACTER. Crocodile falls apart except his villainy. Doflamingo still has a layer to him beside his villainy (e.g. he is quiet affectionate towards his immediate family and that is really weird considering he killed his father and brother). But Crocodile doesn't have many layers or nuances to him yet. If Villainy is supposed to define Crocodile, then is he not replaceable by a stronger Captain Kuro or Donquixote Doflamingo

You're right, this is about the best character. That's why I decided to specifically mentioned the word villain or antagonist when I described him as number 1. It would probably be correct to say Doflamingo has more layers to him comparatively speaking to Crocodile but I don't have time to cross examine both of them as of right now.

As an antagonist though, and as a villain, the way Crocodile has been built up since before his reveal, how cold and ruthless he is and just how much mental torture he has inflicted upon the main cast and the honorary straw hat in Vivi; it would be a major injustice to say that any other villain in the manga has had a more satisfactory downfall. Maybe it's because Doflamingo is more fresher in our memories that people would think otherwise, but I guarantee a reread of the Whiskey Peak saga to Alabasta arc will do wonders for them.

Kuro- Let's not kid ourselves here. While Kuro is an excellent villain, as are all East Blue villains for what they are, he's merely a side piece in the East blue saga and a plot device for Usopp to join the crew. He inflicted mental damage to a grand total of only 2 people and was going to retire for his drive was too weak. Whereas Crocodile, even while defeated and mentally scarred by the force of nature that is Whitebeard, has the drive, ambition and patience to nearly bring an entire nation to it's knees.


Yes!!! I agree. He was the most pirate-like pirate I had seen till his return in Impel Down. But you should also acknowledge that a pirate organisation cannot be run by cruelty alone. He has zero disregard for any member of his crew which means that when compared to someone like Doflamingo, he will end up with less loyal crew.
Of course a pirate crew shouldn't fully work on cruelty alone, however Crocodile is an outlier of an evidence that somehow makes it work. With unparalleled cruelty and no tolerance for failure he makes a syndicate that puts rival antagonists to shame. He a different breed compared to the other pirates who couldn't have achieved half of what he done, by solely being cruel.

Less loyal crew or not, had it not been for the Will of PPPPP, he would have got the job done.

Secondly, historically not pirates were rapists and plunderers IRL. So, while is absolute evil aspect is entertaining, it didn't stand out from someone like Captain Kuro
Again the buildup was vastly superior for Crocodile in comparison to Kuro. He's not on Crocodile's radar in terms of characterisation nor as a villain.

Question is: how much does this add to Crocodile's character? I don't think it adds anything to Crocodile.
This adds quite a lot to Crocodile, not so much in terms for his character, but for his overall impact as a whole on the story.

Without Pluton being his goal, we wouldn't have gotten introduced to the Poneglyphs, the mystery of the void century, and the existence of the ancient weapons. Oda would have had to build this up some other time which would have felt extremely flat. By introducing it at the start of the grand line it opens up the world lore and increases the mystery of the one piece world and allows it to be fleshed out gradually. This of course is a direct impact due to Crocodile's goal of acquiring Pluton, and again highlights Crocodile's competence in seeking out the right people = Nico Robin.

Robin joining the crew, (plot decive for Luffy to become the pirate king via the Road Poneglyphs), is also a direct consequence of Crocodile's actions. Crocodile tries to get rid of Robin. Luffy ends up saving her when she wanted to die. She than forces herself upon the ship. As a result, you could say Crocodile is a precursor to Robin joining the strawhats, and becoming one of the mcs.

I'm not just talking about how his character is, but what impact he has upon the story. That's what I was trying to get at in that part of my first post. And for such an early villain within the grand-line, his impact is still felt strongly to this very day.

For other antagonists, you don't get that much lore heavy substance nor do they have that much story impact. They're either plot points for picking up crew members or just really evil dudes ruling an island. For world lore? No one expanded it as much as the Croc did.



I have discussed this before, but I want to stress again. The fact that Nami doesn't spam her dream is an indication that Nami is not burdened by her dream unlike Luffy and Zoro. Luffy and Zoro are trapped by their dream, they need to achieve it because they have made a promise to people dear to them. But Nami is not trapped inside her dream, making her a different breed of protagonist.
I agree. Nami is free in the pursuits of her goals and that does make her very unique comparatively speaking.

Oda said that Nami always makes map when she has free time. Post-TS has been a roller-coaster with the Straw hats going from Punk Hazard to Dressrosa and then immediately to Zou, immediately followed by WCI and now Wano. And it has been an affair of adrenaline rush. But as per Oda, you should know that if Nami has free time, she is making maps.
Just because the mangaka said so outside of the story, doesn't really cement her dream as something special to her character. Not even she has made a off hand comment in the manga itself, in regards to her own goals since the post time-skip or even earlier. Again, I don't remember the last time she has gotten excited to visit new places, or is shown drawing or making outlines of islands inside the story itself.

For a pirate based manga so focused on dreams and ambition, hers sure doesn't seem to get a lot of focus. This is extremely weird considering the fact that she's a main character with abundant panel time and the fact that it's the hardest goal to achieve out of all the strawhats. Zoro has to defeat a single man, Luffy has to find a mystical treasure in Raftel, which then ties in with Robin since the Rio Poneglyph is probably inside. This goes on and so fourth for all crew members. All their dreams will be completed near EOS or in the epilogue.

Nami on the other hand, has to not only navigate to Raftel but also visit all of the four blues, and take multiple visits to the grandline several times over as she's trying to create the map of the entire goddam world. By shafting it and saying she's doing it while not actively showing it in the manga, it damages the enormous task of her dream. As a consequence, her character suffers as it seems like her dreams are secondary to the other mcs. For example, everything Luffy does takes him closer to the title of Pirate King, and he also mentions it 24/7 like it's his catchphrase (it is lol). Zoro gets to train and fight with strong swordsman consistently, which help him steadily move towards his dream. Robin practically gets a Poneglyph mention every other arc now, so her dream is being highlighted. How Oda handles Nami's goal is bland at best.


While it is really difficult to find character growth Post-TS, as a whole, Nami has had significant character growth. If we were analyzing only Post-TS Nami, it would be more difficult for me to say that. But as a whole, Nami enjoys great progression.
Yes as I've mentioned in my first post I agree with all of this to a T. However, character progression is not as evident near the end of the pre time-skip and, practically non existent post time-skip.

Let me reiterate. While the straw hats get to enjoy vastly superior character growth to secondary characters due to their prolonged focus in the story, they are prone to getting stagnant due to said focus, which most of the crew are post time-skip. This of course includes even Nami.


Also, it may seem subtle, but Nami has mellowed out a lot and gained a lot of respect for Luffy post-TS. She has been less violent towards Luffy and as I have said before, she respects her captain enough to slap Sanji. I don't think, pre-TS, Nami held the same degree of respect for Luffy.
I agree that she has probably has mellowed out somewhat, but it nothing truly game breaking. She's still the same old Nami. Her character growth has stopped pre time skip as with most straw hats. I don't think she has more respect for Luffy now. She has always had respect for Luffy ever since she was freed from Arlong's clutches, and her respect for him probably peaked at Ennis Lobby.

Regarding the fact that she beats him up less- Nope. All moments like these are just gag scenes and she has always been consistent in this even after the time-skip.


Both her greediness for gold and her abusive nature towards her cremates (top 3 males) doesn't change. The respect level is still stagnant since it has already peaked. There area also nothing in the story that fluctuates this, no situation that made her lose or gain respect for Luffy post timeskip. I must admit it has changed with Sanji though, with the WCI fiasco.
  1. Notable Character Traits
  2. Significance to the Story
  3. Character Growth
I wouldn't be surprised if Nami has 98% of the cast beat in all three. It would be disrespectful and truly trash writing, if a core member of the strawhats didn't have more character traits and has more significance to the story than a one time arc villain. I would honestly expect that with all the strawhats.

What makes Crocodile truly special though, is that he possesses all three categories that you've mentioned at such a high standard (which even you agree with bar the third option), even with the minuscule screen time that he gets in comparison to with Nami. He manages to achieve all of that in a lot shorter time which is a testament to the solidness of his character.

So while I must give major props to the level of detail that Zolo has gone into analysing the three factors, Crocodile is just nearly as solid in a shorter amount of time. For his last category (character growth) that Zolo believes Crocodile fails in-

So, Nami has changed over the course of the story. But what about Crocodile? Crocodile started out as an ambitious pirate wanting to be the best in the world and then got beaten by WB. He then became obsessed with power and that led to his downfall. Now, he has again set sail with his original goal in the same manner as his younger self. That is not Character Growth, that is completing a 360⁰ to return to the beginning.
I do disagree with. This is how it goes-
Crocodile gets his spirits crushed and loses sight of what his goal is (Pirate King) from his devastating loss to Whitebeard. Due to this, he seeks out the highest powers of the ancient weapons, which ultimately comes to fail in a form of a "greenhorn" that he detests. This loss humbles him and mellows him out. It forces him to rethink. Even his whole demeanour relaxes by quite a bit in which he tolerates some comrades and allows some level of cheekiness to pass. See Daz Bones Panel in first post.

Also deep inside the confinement of Impeal down, he himself comes to a shocking realisation. Crocodile still had that ambition to become Pirate King all along, thanks to a little help from Miss Golden Week.


Unfortunately, the loss to Whitebeard was a mental barrier in which he couldn't see himself overcoming which lead to the whole fiasco of Alabasta in the first place. He quickly discards this notion while in prison.

"That's water under the bridge. I have no interest in Alabasta anymore " - He cares about nothing while in prison. Not about the title of PK, even though he has the desire deep down, nor with the acquisition of the ancient weapons. He's extremely nonchalant about the whole situation, and the only thing he cared for was the news of Whitebeard and the war.

So then Marineford comes along, and he is face to face with his own demons in Whitebeard. He wants to prove that he's stronger than him and is desperately seeking to overcome the unconscious barriers that the loss has cemented. This is evident as the first thing he does in Marinford is go for a sneak attack. The "greenhorn" Luffy stops him from attacking Whitebeard.


Then throughout the Marineford arc, we get to see the desperation on Crocodile's part in first trying to reach Whiteberad and the absolute denial second when witnessing Whiteberad fragility. He is shocked that the demon who has plagued him has gotten this weak, and most of all he's beyond frustrated at why he has someone that calibre is still acting as a mental barrier.


After the course of the war and the death of Whitebeard, he is finally free of his mental barriers, he's way more relaxed and he's way more mature as a character. He's taking it a lot less easy due to his massive experience as a pirate and he won't be taking rookies or other pirates lightly now. Ofc that won't stop him from being a little bit arrogant as he's going back to the "sweet old new world". (see my first post for panel)

By overcoming his trauma, and learning from his 2 losses he manages to reignite his spark of becoming a great pirate. He is now fully confident in his own abilities once again (with a lot less overconfidence), and he is finally able to move on from his past and the notion of ancient weapons.


Overcoming past obstacles, mental barriers, becoming more mature and having the courage to go after your dream so easily once again, is not simply a 360 turn. It's a massive win for Sir Crocodile which showcases his amazing character growth in the span of merely an arc and a half. He does this while still only being a secondary character no less, and that is what makes him is so solid.


However, the big question is this....
If you had to give up either Nami or Sir Crocodile from the story, who would you remove?
This is a another bit that I expect any mc to beat a secondary characters with as they have had the most screen time. Crocodile does share traits with other antagonists yes, however he cannot be replaced by any other in terms of his competency and class which I have expanded upon in the first post.

I don’t see any replacement for Nami in the story. No straw hat can fill the role of Nami in the story. Yes…Ussop and Chopper can fill the role of scaredy-cats. But her care, her temper, her greed are unparalleled among every other Straw Hats. Mix all her traits together, you can’t find a single character in One Piece who can reasonably fill up the gap left by Nami.
Yes it's true that if you mix all her traits together you cannot find anyone like her in the story. However, this is once again a consequence of massive panel time she receives as a protagonist. Also the same case can be made for any other strawhat as they're all mcs. It is not a unique trait by any standards so I would disagree with your first 3 sentences.

- I don't see any replacement for any of the strawhats in the story, it's not strictly for Nami.
- Nami also cannot fill the role of any of the other starwhats within the story as they all play a different role. It goes both ways.
- We are ignoring a lot of other characteristics of Usopp and Chopper in that sentence. Both characters also have a lot more to their act than just being a bunch of scardy cats.


I still remain with my earlier conclusion on my first post. Crocodile is a fully fleshed out character, the de facto no 1 villain, and no 2 in terms of Character (antagonists), whose competency and class is still truly unmatched.

His overall story effect is still profound to this day, and his air of mystery keeps us guessing his next move. He's never been stale and never will be.


While Nami does enjoy the perks of massive characterisation via her role as a protagonist, the massive focus is also her biggest weakness as it is with all the other strawhats. She's stagnant (a bit less now that I've read Zolo's post), but still starting to get a bit stale post timeskip.

She's overall a massively strong character of course, but Crocodile has the luxury of not being in the spotlight as she is, which actually helps him on winning this battle. He has no weaknesses in terms of being a solid character and fulfilling his role as menacing villlian.

Basically she gets buried deep in the sand.
:pepedoffy:




Likewise I have enjoyed this debate of ours. Thanks my man @MD Zolo . I also genuinely apologise to any Nami fans that may be unhappy reading through my posts. I'm trying to win here, gotta nitpick somehow right?

Now we wait and see who's subjective views get taken forward.
:endthis:
 
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