Versus Battle Ouki Army Versus Chu Coalition Army

Who Wins?


  • Total voters
    11

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#1
Ouki Army

Ouki
-Former Qin Great General
Tou
-Qin Great General
Ouki has all his vassals that he had during Bayou, Rokuomi, Kanou, Rinbou, etc.

VERSUS

Chu Coalition Army
Kanmei


-Former Chu Great General
-Former Second Great General of the Chu Military

Karin

-Former Chu General
-Current Chu Prime Minister
-Head of the Chu Military

Rinbukun

-Former Chu General

Round 1: Both Armies will have 180,000 Men.

Round 2: Chu will also get General KouYoku and General HakuRei, 15K men a piece.

Who wins and why?
@Owl Ki
@Patryipe
@Blackbeard
@Bullet
@Shanks
@Dark Admiral
@dizzy2341
@Guan Yu
@PuckTheGreat
@RayanOO
@Ninjashadow0209
@Arara
@Hiragaro
@Yo Tan Wa
@FaradaySloth
@ranady
@Dragomir
@Den_Den_Mushi
@Fiji
@Xione
@Jailer
@Bepo
@Desolate Smaug
@NidaiKitetsu
 
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#2
Both Tou and Ouki exceed in experience being S class compared to Karin/Kanmei, even tho Karin is regarded as a genius in warfare Ouki army takes it in round 1.

Round 2 could go to Chu army but will need more thinking.
 
#3
in round one
1-ouki take kanmi and deal with karin strategy at same time (he was able to do this in bayou but at that time riboku is hidden but now karine is there from the start )
2-tou take Rinbukun


then karin remains in round 2 alone with

General KouYoku and General HakuRei

its win for ouki army
 
#4
in round one
1-ouki take kanmi and deal with karin strategy at same time (he was able to do this in bayou but at that time riboku is hidden but now karine is there from the start )
2-tou take Rinbukun


then karin remains in round 2 alone with

General KouYoku and General HakuRei

its win for ouki army
I don't think that's how round 2 works round 2 has the same forces as 1 but with those additions as well.

Unless you mean same thing will happen as in round 1 but I don't think it's that simple.
 
#5
I don't think that's how round 2 works round 2 has the same forces as 1 but with those additions as well.

Unless you mean same thing will happen as in round 1 but I don't think it's that simple.
isn't round 2 comes after 1 ?
or they are separate scenario ?
if separate scenario with kanmi and rinbukn i can see this as lose for ouki
 
#7
Round 1: Ouki army wins. Kanmei will stall Ouki but it won't be enough for his other forces to gain a significant momentum. We already know Tou stomps Rinbunkun. Both Ouki and Tou will be ready for Karin's tactics before it changes the outcome of the battle.

Round 2: Chu coalition with extreme diff. Ouki and Tou will be pre ocuupied at first as R1 but this time Karin has General KouYoku and General HakuRei who will really make the work of Ouki army. HAkurei can easily snipe Ouki's top dogs whereas KouYoku, a man who could keep up with Tou (even momentarily) can play huge role in thinning Ouki's core army. With their army losing to Chu, both Ouki and Tou will be thrown off their game imo, which Karin can exploit to pick up the win.
 
#8
Hmm...Ouki miss third strong general here ! Still due to same amount of fodder s , i will give Ouki army edge over chu army . Ouki army is more experienced and I don't think that Karin can trump Ouki and Tou together.

About Round 2 Chu army has edge over Ouki army (numbers) but I don't think ma boy Ouki would lose this battle. They have gone through lots of extreme and uncertain battles..Even in odds he was going good against Riboku , if that immature hot head hadnt charged blindly , outcome could have diffrent
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
#10
quick questions : Tou here is the Tou from Ouki's time or current Tou ?

Current Tou has more experience as real leader, maybe became a better leader, more fights under his belt etc. I think current Tou is a shade better than Tou from Ouki's time.

I know stats are sometimes a mess but Tou experience went from A to S in the third data. I think this is important. And his leadership skills went from 92 to 94.

This is not everything but I think this make a difference.

and for round 1 : do Rin Bun kun army has young Hakurei and Kouyoku ?
 
#11
Yeah I don't know if anyone can take Kanmei in a fight, dude gave Oukotsu (regarded as the strongest of the Old Qin Six) a mortal wound in one strike. And given the fact that if it wasn't for Ousen then Karin would've GG'd not just Tou but the entire Qin Military, means that she would be one of the top tier tacticians here. So yeah I wouldn't be surprised if Chu wins here, especially when it took Moubu, Tou, Gohoumei, and other factors to take down a quartet of Chu Generals protecting a single region (and they had more men, albeit slightly), I mean really, there's no reason why I can't see the Chu pulling it out in the end.
 
#12
I think this is closer than we think.


Back in the Kankoku Pass battle, Chu's 150.000 forces were so overpowered that PIS prevented the second army from joining the battle right away despite Karin stating later that Kanmei's death news was the reason behind Chu's defeat. Karin outplayed Tou with feints, but she failed to accomplish anything (in the Chu/Qin battlefield) because she was so confident about her secret plan to strike the Kankoku Pass with the elite 5k unit because that (as she said) was the whole point of the coalition invasion.

The goal in Karin's opinion had nothing to do with defeating the army that's standing in front of them, so she wasted time with the encirclement and the elephant attack instead of working in coordination with Kanmei's first army and Rinbukun's third army to actually fight the army that's opposing them. If that was a traditional war, the thick lipped bitch would have seen through Moubu's special formation plan to reach Kanmei and thwarted his attempt.

If you take the in character Chu army at Kankoku Pass Ouki alone would simultaneously handle both Kanmei and Karin, but if they're willing to work together shit is going downhill for the lips man.
 
#13
Their Ego will make them lose
Kanmei and Rinbukun will underestimate Ouki and Tou for sure which will not help their army at all
Ouki takes advantage of that and wins the first one
In the second one they will probably lose

If they make it 2 battlefields and Tou and Ouki fight half of Chu each they win but if they are together they lose i think since Tou is like a copy of Ouki
They will think of the same thing and same tactics
Tou in this situation will be reduced to just a fighter and Karin can focus only on Ouki's tactics but if it's two diffrent battlefield the other side can't handle Tou's strategies and will lose to him
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#14
I think pretty much everybody in this thread is heavily underestimating the Chu Army lol. In my opinion, the Ouki Army winning this one would be extremely difficult.

Tacticall, I think Karin is on par with Ouki and Tou. I don't think there's anything that she can do against them that will trick or fool them, but likewise I don't think there's anything that they can do against Karin that will trick or fool her. Some may say Karin was "fooled" by Ousen during the Coalition War, but I would heavily disagree. For one, Karin wasn't trying to outplay Ousen. She was trying to strictly outplay Tou, while relying on the other state armies to do their jobs and keep Tou occupied. I don't think Karin should lose points in the tactics department for essentially not predicting that Ousen was going to annihilate Ordo and then come for her tactic as well. She was strictly trying to outmaneuver Tou, which she was able to succeed at thanks to her greater numbers.

Karin was called "brilliant" by Riboku, and is currently serving as the head of the Chu Military and Chu's Prime Minister. I do not think Ouki and Tou can out-play her. So we'll call it neutral as far as tactics go.

Martially though, the Chu Army takes this. Kanmei is the strongest duelist here, I would favor him above Ouki in a straight fight 6/10 times and Tou 7/10 times. Assuming Karin is at least close to Kanmei, then I would assume she would go something like 4/10 times against Ouki and 5/10 times against Tou. From here, it's easy to see that Karin and Kanmei have the slight martial advantage overall mainly thanks to Kanmei. The Qin's problems increase with Rinbukun though, because Rinbukun is martially above every one of Ouki's vassal generals, and in a scenario like @Blackbeard posted, where the Chu aren't facing Ouki and Tou one general at a time but instead are facing him as a combined team, I do not think Ouki has the advantage here at all.

So I'd say Scenario 1, the Chu extreme diff, Scenario 2 the Chu high diff.
 
#15
Thank you for the Tag.


Results of the rounds (will give explanations later):

Round 1 - Ouki army takes the W around mid-diff due to the number of individuals being the same.
Round 2 - Ouki army takes the W solid high-diff

Setting some premises pre-explanation:

Strongest fighter in this is by a decent margin is Ouki. As strong as Kanmei is nothing states or portrays him being superior to Bayou arc Houken. Especially on Hara's end with Houken being at 100 & Kanmei being at 99. And unlike Ouki he doesn't have any "Great General of the Heavens" factor (no, not every general has a great general of the heavens factor) going on which gave Ouki a megaboost in overcoming that stats defecit with Houken. Bayou arc Houken was about to be beheaded by Ouki, who had no big injuries on him except a decent size cut at the waist. Heck the man practically low to mid-diff the Houken that killed Kyou.


Best strategist in this is also Ouki due to his mega experience. After that we have Tou & Karin at roughly equal status. So there's a big difference strategically between the two, since Kanmei and his cronies can't face up against Ouki tactically.



Round 1:

Ouki alone can handle Kanmei & Karin strategically. This leaves Tou to do extra damage (assuming he'd be commanding the forces and not just acting as an arrow like he did at Bayou). He'll first go and pick off Rinbukun fairly fast. Then the aim would be to go after Karin or eliminate Kanmei's underlings. But let's suppose Kanmei decides to join the fray and with that Ouki also decides to come in.. well then Kanmei just done fucked up. And.. Ouki coming in personally is the last thing Chu wants. Why? because when Ouki is leading the army himself, it's simply too OP:



The reason Coalition Chu army was tough for Qin wasn't because Karin or Kanmei posed a greater threat than Tou & Moubu. It was strictly the sheer outnumbering of the forces while having similar or better quality of soldiers, a total of 60k gap between the two armies. Karin had more tools in her hand to use than Tou did, that's about it. And of course story elements like the giant elephants that should've been seen long before they were used, but instead were stealthed to a point that they were only noticed when they were deep into the battlefield. That ain't the case here.


Man I can't stress enough how HUGE of a deal Ouki is. Hara had to nerf the man by giving him a ragtag army to use at Bayou arc, same with Renpa & his Wei army. These mfs were nerfed HARD, if they were leading their respective proper armies, those two battles would've been way too 1-sided. You need to bring freaking Kouen himself in order to match this man here. Anything short of Kouen is not getting it done for the Chu if Ouki is the one here. Or do some sort of a timeskip to the Chu arc and maybe that Karin would be standing at the same level as prime Qin 6 Ouki.

Round 2:

This is where it gets to a solid high-diff, due to the deadly sniping of Hakurei (which can pick off Ouki army commanders) & the other dude's combat skills. But it's not anything that 2-3 of Ouki's underlings wouldn't be able to handle. Just depends on how Ouki decides to deal with them and the type of tactics he'll use to make them ineffective. Very well could be little less than high-diff, but not going anything above that.


All in all, you can give equal numbers to the Qin duo in the Coalition arc or even just 130k vs 150k and they more than likely would've beaten the Chu Army. Putting Ouki in + GG Tou while giving Qin equal number of forces is just a 1-sided W.


Yoo man y'all don't realize how overpowered Ouki / Renpa / Hakuki are as generals in their primes. Even among the Wei Fire Dragons/Qin 6/ Zhao 3 these dudes are simply cream of the crop, whether we're talking historically or in-manga.
 
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#16
I think we're seriously underestimating Kanmei army here;

Granted Moubu tore through them like a piece of paper but it was freaking Moubu. Ouki's elite soldiers and vassals will have super hard time replicating such feat imo.
 
#17
I think we're seriously underestimating Kanmei army here;

Granted Moubu tore through them like a piece of paper but it was freaking Moubu. Ouki's elite soldiers and vassals will have super hard time replicating such feat imo.
Not really, took all of that into account, even took the gap between the base soldiers of Qin vs Chu into account.

"Not average run of the mill soldiers" vs "Demon Gods"
What are we comparing here? lol.

Only army in-manga who rivals Ouki's Demon God soldiers when he's at the front is Duke Hyou's soldiers when he's at the front. And even with the Duke there's a weakness of it only being effective if the enemy targets the Duke. Where as with Ouki that entire army, whoever the fuck is behind is gone turn into Demon Gods, no matter if the enemy is targeting Ouki or going at the soldiers. That 99 charisma putting in work.

You're underestimating how OP Hakuki | Renpa | Ouki are as generals. Nothing short of Kouen (who based on manga portrayal is inferior to Renpa & Ouki) is gonna do anything for Chu in an even number of armies match up where quality of generals determines the difference.
 
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#18
Not really, took all of that into account, even took the gap between the base soldiers of Qin vs Chu into account.

"Not average run of the mill soldiers" vs "Demon Gods"
What are we comparing here? lol.

Only army in-manga who rivals Ouki's Demon God soldiers when he's at the front is Duke Hyou's soldiers when he's at the front. And even with the Duke there's a weakness of it only being effective if the enemy targets the Duke. Where as with Ouki that entire army, whoever the fuck is behind is gone turn into Demon Gods, no matter if the enemy is targeting Ouki or going at the soldiers. That 99 charisma putting in work.

You're underestimating how OP Hakuki | Renpa | Ouki are as generals. Nothing short of Kouen (who based on manga portrayal is inferior to Renpa & Ouki) is gonna do anything for Chu in an even number of armies match up where quality of generals determines the difference.
You're exaggerating this "Demon God" thing too much. Sure they will be pumped and juiced but these soldiers are all naturally overgrown soldiers of disaster.
Ouki sure is a Tier ahead than any other in this round but that doesn't give him an advantage on the full scale war. R2, will be really hard for him to win.
 
#19
You're exaggerating this "Demon God" thing too much. Sure they will be pumped and juiced but these soldiers are all naturally overgrown soldiers of disaster.
Ouki sure is a Tier ahead than any other in this round but that doesn't give him an advantage on the full scale war. R2, will be really hard for him to win.
You can't say I'm exaggerating it too much, without showcasing how I'm exaggerating it too much. Are you able to present other generals being able to achieve something similar with their soldiers? I didn't just mention Ouki, I brought up the Duke as well, who has a similar thing going for him though not as effective as Ouki. I understand if you want to devalue it in it's effect on the battlefield, but it would be limiting one of the key things that makes Ouki rival the likes of Renpa and Hakuki, as it's something no other GG has ever showcased.


That doesn't make any sense. How can Ouki as a general be a tier above any other general but that not translate into a full scale war.. when the prowess of a general is determined by their effectiveness in a War. Either Ouki is a tier above them, in which case this is a 1-sided W for the Qin, both scenarios. Or Ouki isn't a tier above them and is essentially a Moubu replacement with just more brains, in which case it's still a W for Qin in scenario 1, but toss up in scenario 2. But you can't really hold Ouki as a general to be a tier above any other general here and expect that not to translate on the battlefield, ESPECIALLY in a large scale war, since that's where the proper gap between generals becomes visible. IE, Ousen being able to stalemate Riboku in a smaller scale battlefield with their 20k or w.e armies in the middle battlefield, while being effectively owned multiple times by Riboku on a large scale at the Shukai Plains. On a large scale the gap between Generals is the most visible, on a smaller scale it's less, as there's less to work with and things are fairly limited.
 
#20
How can Ouki as a general be a tier above any other general but that not translate into a full scale war.. when the prowess of a general is determined by their effectiveness in a War.
How soon can Ouki finish off Kanmei in your opinion.?
Ousen being able to stalemate Riboku in a smaller scale battlefield with their 20k or w.e armies in the middle battlefield, while being effectively owned multiple times by Riboku on a large scale at the Shukai Plains.
Riboku had far much experienced Generals by his side in Shukai Plains whereas Ousen only had new Generation who had yet to experience a war of such scale.
 
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