Versus Battle Ouki & Tou VS Shouheikun & Moubu

Who Wins?


  • Total voters
    14

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#1


And



VERSUS



And



So I was rereading the first Kingdom Arc, and in that Arc, Jie Shi actually tried to summon Ouki to Kanyou in order to have him prevent Ryofui from returning and removing Seikyou from power. Ouki rejected the summons, and Ryofui would not return to Kanyou until well after Seikyou’s rebellion ended anyway. Additionally, if Ouki would’ve accepted the summons and Ryofui would’ve tried to return to Kanyou, the fighting likely would have not been serious and likely would’ve just been Ouki’s forces and Ryofui’s forces posturing against each other for a time, similar to Moubu and Karin on the Chu border.

But these events really got me thinking about what would happen if Ouki and Tou actually fought Shouheikun and Moubu. I really can’t decide who I think wins this, so I figured I’d open up the discussion here to see what you guys think.

For simplicity’s sake:

Each army has 100,000 men, and Ouki does not have his subordinate generals like Rokuomi and Kanou. Likewise, this is just Shouheikun and Moubu and not Ryofui and the other pillars.

Versions: This is Juukou Tou, Bayou Ouki, Juukou Moubu, and Battle of Kanyou Shouheikun.

Who do you guys think would win a straightforward battle and why?

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RayanOO

Lazy is the way
#3
Versions: This is Juukou Tou, Bayou Ouki, Juukou Moubu, and Battle of Kanyou Shouheikun
Given the story telling of your opening post I thought you would take first arc version of everyone. But yeah even if Moubu was a monster back then he was still too green and Ouki or Tou would have pranked him hard.

Juukou Moubu is a different beast. More experienced, more level headed, likely stronger too.

But Juukou Tou is also a bit different : more experienced : from A to S, learnt to be the one in charge etc.

But Moubu is the one who made bigger progess since the beginning of the story.

Tou is def smarter than Moubu but it will be harder to trick him. And Moubu is a freak. We learnt that strength can sometimes overwhelm tactics.

But I still think army vs army Tou => Moubu. Tou may die in the process but Tou army will win.

Then Ouki vs Shouheikun :

SHK seems smarter like academically smarter. If you give two maths tests to Ouki and SHK, SHK will likely score higher.

And SHK job is to make plan to outwit other nations.

But Ouki knows the battlefield a lot better. He roamed from battle to battle to battle for so long. He can smell and taste the tactics or changements in opponent army.

Ouki long experience will even the field, SHK also knew some battles in his youth he is not totally green. But Ouki exp is not the same.

And fighting wise I don’t see SHK beating Ouki man.

other thing that can advantage Ouki and Tou : even if SHK and Moubu are childhood friends etc Tou and Ouki know each other a lot better on a battlefield : how they think what they like etc. Even without telling I think they can guess what the other wants. They will be more flexible/Quick to adapt in the mist of the battle if one of them does something.

Victory Tou/Ouki but they will have to sweat.
 
#4
Moubu is an unstoppable beast when he is backed by SHK's tactics. The duo of these two is unrivaled. SHK is probably one of the strongest fighter of all China alongside Ouki, Renpa, Kou'En, etc. SHK has proven both his tactical and the physical might and it leads me to believe that he can go toe to toe with any GGs in Kingdom.
I'm not gonna explore Ouki and Tou but their duo is also pretty terrifying for their opponents.
For me, it's SHK and Moubu who will emerge victorious in this battle. Moubu from JukkoU is far more stronger and smarter than his former self. He put all the lives of his men and his own on the line by solely relying on SHK's word. it displays the trust they have. Even during Coalition, while defeating Kan'Mei Moubu was fueled by SHK's prep talk. Tou and Ouki also have this relation but not as deep as the other two. If Tou is Ouki's arrow then Moubu will be both Spear and Shield of SHK. Tou can surely come up with far more superior tactics but it won't be enough to stop the carnage of Moubu.
Ouki Vs SHK will most likely be a battle of tactics prior to the start of their battle. Ouki is shown to be on par with Houken so I'll say he is the stronger one but SHK is more fast, versatile and cunning imo. Their battle will be a stalemate.
The tie-breaker will be the winner of Moubu Vs Tou and as I said, Moubu will be break that tie.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#6
50/50 in the poll, @Admiral Lee Hung we need you to take a side
Lmfao, y’all already knew I was undecided too.

I honestly could see this one going either way and don’t know what to pick.

As far as strategy and tactics go, Moubu and Shouheikun have the advantage, but not by much. Mainly because of Shouheikun, he knows a large amount of high level battlefield tactics and how to use them even when they are high risk/high reward. Strategy-wise Shouheikun gets the benefit but these categories are very close. I don’t think Shouheikun is going to pull a Wategi against Ouki or Tou, at best I think he’ll just keep forcing them to change tactics to counter him, they may even have to retreat multiple times to reform their lines to prevent Shouheikun from out-playing them, but Shouheikun isn’t going to be mind-fucking Ouki and Tou lol.

Martial strength wise, Shouheikun and Moubu. The way I see it, Moubu > Ouki >~ Shouheikun >~ Tou, so I give them the small benefit but again it’s only a minor advantage.

The big factor in favor of Ouki and Tou is experience. They fought and had great success during King Shou’s legendary era of warfare and continued fighting through the current era. Shouheikun fought in that era too, but he stepped off of the battlefield to be commander in chief, while Moubu...I don’t think he fought during that era? But regardless Moubu still probably has equivalent experience given that he has fought battles against Houken, Riboku, Kanmei, Karin, Juukou gang, etc...so both Shouheikun and Moubu probably have equivalent experience to Ouki and Tou in terms of quality, Ouki and Tou simply have more experience.

So really...it’s such a tough call lol. I think I will favor Shouheikun and Moubu for now since their abilities are just straight up greater, but it’s an extreme diff fight and 51/49 lol. It is that close for me.
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
#7
So really...it’s such a tough call lol. I think I will favor Shouheikun and Moubu for now since their abilities are just straight up greater, but it’s an extreme diff fight and 51/49 lol. It is that close for me
don’t you think Tou and Ouki who fought together since forever have better team work and can react faster to other moves than Moubu/SHK duo ?

I think team work and chemistry goes to Tou/Ouki and will play a key factor

and experience is really important : Tou and Ouki are both S in experience this must mean something
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#8
don’t you think Tou and Ouki who fought together since forever have better team work and can react faster to other moves than Moubu/SHK duo ?
Not necessarily. Not only have Moubu and Shouheikun been friends since childhood, but don’t forget about the Echelon formation during the Coalition War.

Shouheikun was able to instruct Moubu on how to use a formation that was so high level, that even Mouten was in shock not only that Moubu was able to pull it off at all, but that the Echelon could be pulled off on the battlefield period since it is such a high-level tactic. And this was from Shouheikun and Moubu having like a 10 minute conversation lol.

People underestimate Moubu, any orders Shouheikun gives him, he will be able to execute them flawlessly.

and experience is really important : Tou and Ouki are both S in experience this must mean something
Yea Ouki and Tou both have 0 weaknesses, while Moubu at least does. I doubt Shouheikun does just due to all of the tactics he knows, he likely knows high level tactics for any situation.

The problem is that Ouki and Tou would have a difficult time exploiting Moubu’s weakness. Moubu’s weakness is just that he’s a very straightforward General who fights by charging his enemy head-on and crushing them directly. Ouki and Tou can exploit this, but with Shouheikun as his mind, Moubu won’t be so easy for them to bait. And then there’s the issue of them actually slaying Moubu, they can both probably do it but I’d favor Moubu more often than not.
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
#9
Not necessarily. Not only have Moubu and Shouheikun been friends since childhood, but don’t forget about the Echelon formation during the Coalition War.

Shouheikun was able to instruct Moubu on how to use a formation that was so high level, that even Mouten was in shock not only that Moubu was able to pull it off at all, but that the Echelon could be pulled off on the battlefield period since it is such a high-level tactic. And this was from Shouheikun and Moubu having like a 10 minute conversation lol.

People underestimate Moubu, any orders Shouheikun gives him, he will be able to execute them flawlessly.
they are indeed friend since forever but this is not the same thing as fighting side by side in countless battlefield since forever. Tou knows Ouki way of fighting perfectly and Ouki knows Tou way of fighting perfectly.

Moubu can attack and carry complicated tactics from SHK but in the mist of the battle if there is a changement or something surprising the Ouki/Tou duo will react way faster than the other duo. If Ouki moves a part of his army even without telling it to Tou, Tou will understand what Ouki is doing even without communicating.

But I agree that Moubu will be harder to bait than before and the guy is strong.
 
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Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#10
they are indeed friend since forever but this is not the same thing as fighting side by side in countless battlefield since forever. Tou knows Ouki way of fighting perfectly and Ouki knows Tou way of fighting perfectly.
Knowing someone from childhood gives you insight to how they think as an adult, but I agree with you Ouki and Tou will be faster.

Moubu can attacked and carried complicated tactics from SHK but in the most of the battle if there is a changement or something surprising the Ouki/Tou duo will react way faster than the other duo. If Ouki moves a part of his army even without telling it to Tou, Tou will understand what Ouki is doing even without communicating.
I guess it would depend on what changes we’re talking about. I doubt Shouheikun will let the battle progress in a way where Ouki and Tou can counter attack so severely that they will separate he and Moubu and isolate them. But even if that happens, like I said, Moubu and Shouheikun have the individual fighting advantage, so Ouki and Tou would have to rely on tactics to wear them both down, rather than slaying either of them quickly before they regroup and really won’t have time to keep them separated, since Moubu and Shouheikun’s first instinct when separated should be to regroup.

If Ouki and Tou separated he and Moubu and then focused on slaying Shouheikun, I even doubt this would work really.

Recall Moubu’s most severe defeat of his career involved him getting baited too deeply and getting separated from Ouki, which ultimately cost Qin the battle and Ouki his life. And Moubu took full responsibility for this at the time. If this were Bayou Moubu, that’d be one thing, but I doubt Juukou Moubu will be so easy to exploit like this.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#14
Ouki and Tou are 6GG and all of them possess exceptional skillsets, while you know SHK tactic to capture Gyou was easily overtaken by Ousen's and Ousen is same 6GG with Ouki and Tou.
And Shouheikun was compared to multiple 6GG level characters like Moubu and Riboku several times and by several characters.

Just because Ousen is GG tier doesn’t mean Shouheikun is not GG tier lol. Shouheikun has never shown a single moment of weakness in this entire manga, aside from Ousen’s Gyou strat which is one of the best feats in (Kingdom) Chinese history.
 
#15
And Shouheikun was compared to multiple 6GG level characters like Moubu and Riboku several times and by several characters.

Just because Ousen is GG tier doesn’t mean Shouheikun is not GG tier lol. Shouheikun has never shown a single moment of weakness in this entire manga, aside from Ousen’s Gyou strat which is one of the best feats in (Kingdom) Chinese history.
SHK is GG level but not in 6GG level yet.
 
#17
Why? Because he isn’t as good a strategist as Ousen? Neither is Ouki but Ouki is still 6GG level lol.

If Shouheikun is both intellectually and martially top tier, he is 6GG level bro.
He is GG level, no doubt about it but reaching to 6GG level need experiences in the actual wars, SHK has been too long in the court than in actual war.

Actual war is very different with simulation war.

Imo, if kanki vs shk, kanki will eat shk alive
 
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