[FNZ] Role Madness Round 08: Tokyo Ghoul

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bogard

You can't win
Ok just read through the thread, and it seems there were many people confused by my actions, so i'd like clarify them before explaining why i believe TAC is scum

- First of all, as i mentioned before, you can never catch scum if you stay passive,
you can never catch him if you stay passive, so it's important to clear things out now
So the reason of my initial agressive play on TAC was to spark a discussion and see the way he'd defend his position to possibly catch on to something(whether he is town or scum)
I deliberately started an aggressive play on TAC to see his position.
- Secondly, for the reason above then, of course the initial case would be "weak" considering it's only used to spark discussion, which is also why i wasn't voting TAC at that point

- Thirdly, a scum starting aggressively like this to push town based on a "weak" case can only serve to digging his own grave, would be a stupid mistake to make, and anyone who played with me before when i was scum could tell you, i'd not do this mistake

- Fourthly we have a 48h DP1, something that was even the initial theme of my arguments, so voting at that point could further help to apply pressure on a player and see his reaction

- Lastly, it's through the discussion however that i noticed TAC could really be scum, with the discussion evolving from the initial "48h notice" to TAC hard-pushing me as a liar from a single wrong sentence interpretation, which not only i found intellectually dishonest, but also purposedly playing dumb to try to continuously pushing a case even after i clarified multiple times what i was initially referring to(not reading the part where the DP1 exceptional 48h long was mentioned)

As mentioned here, it was pretty obvious what my point was: https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/round-08-tokyo-ghoul.4223/page-6#post-367023

I've seen that there are few experienced mafia players who also noted something as basic at that like @Reborn or @Dragomir. Hell i think even @RayanOO noticed this, and i already played mafia with TAC, so i don't believe he is this dumb, so i can only view this as a mafia trying to take advantage of a misinterpretation to push a case to lynch a regular town, hence my vote on him

So Drago the point i'm in disagreement with you is when you talked about TAC venting his frustration, i don't think it's the case, but more like him getting pressured and thus using a misinterpretation to push a case to lynch a regular town because he continuously did it even after i clarified it multiple times like Reborn also noted
@TheAncientCenturion you said Bogard is lying about not reading op

But he clarified here that he was referring to "you not reading 48 hours info"

So why you still saying he is lying?
I'd also like to recommend to town not to think too much about past games. I have not played the previous game with TAC to know, but just because he was town in a previous game doesn't mean he is now. It's a wrong analogy to make
 
D

Dragomir

Actually, no. Unvote. Don't feel like voting for Beta.
You clearly don't know what WIFOM is bud. You gotta strenghten your knowledge over this game. The fact that what Bogard is doing does happen to be considered risky is exactly what makes it a feasible scum strategy.

I'm not the only player who believes Bogard to be lining scum for instance, even TAC himself does, who is also an experienced player like me.

Try to ask yourself why you believe that what Bogard is doing is risky and then you get your answer to your questions. And the answer is his case and LANJI's are only different in the shape, but not in the form.
@Reborn Beta is right. Something being risky is even more reason for why a player, specifically Mafia, would do it. It creates this logic in someone else's head that being: "oh, he's doing something so risky for a scum, so he probably isn't one."

That is WIFOM logic and extremely faulty. You will come across many games in which scum will do shit that you don't expect them to do. For example, voting for their own buddy 5 seconds before the phase ends in order to save the town cop when they could have just not done anything allowing their buddy to be saved and the cop to be lynched. Another example is a player voting for themselves at EoD, thus making their own wagon the lead wagon. In both instances, the players were scum and went on to win the game because they got town cred for doing something that doesn't make sense coming from a wolf.

The only times that logic would hold is if someone did something so outrageous that they can't be scum.
 
D

Dragomir

@Bogard
So Drago the point i'm in disagreement with you is when you talked about TAC venting his frustration, i don't think it's the case, but more like him getting pressured and thus using a misinterpretation to push a case to lynch a regular town because he continuously did it even after i clarified it multiple times like Reborn also noted
But how so when he never pushed for your lynch? Iirc, all he voiced was a suspicion for your tunneling.

About the frustration thing, let's take a look at TAC's perspective. He finds your reasoning to be bad and really weak. So by you tunneling him for something that he found to be trivial, he got frustrated. Is that not legit to you?
 

Bogard

You can't win
@Bogard

But how so when he never pushed for your lynch? Iirc, all he voiced was a suspicion for your tunneling.

About the frustration thing, let's take a look at TAC's perspective. He finds your reasoning to be bad and really weak. So by you tunneling him for something that he found to be trivial, he got frustrated. Is that not legit to you?
Because he continuously tried to portray me as a liar with the on-rolling discussion going this way
You're a liar. I never said I didn't read the OP. I don't remember seeing anything about 48 hour phases in the OP.
Even after i clarified to him what i meant
Feeling pressured because of my push? I wasn't referring to not reading opening post. I was referring to the 48h claim that you said you didn't remember at all
You're overtly lying Bogard. I did not remember reading it in the OP;

Which is why I asked Neutral about it, as the record shows?

But I'm not feeling pressured because of your push, I'm just getting frustrated with trying to play this game and people taking my comments in such a disingenuous way. It's the same thing that made me real angry last game with Reborn, when I was trying to help out newer players. By my second post you're breaking down whether or not I'm scum when I'm trying to clear something up that confused me in the game, and still make out the questioning of a statement as a scummy move. Going so far as to say NeutralWatcher cannot be a genuine source of information because he's a newer player than me, which doesn't make any sense to me.
I never said I didn't read the OP or backtracked on that, but Bogard lists that as a reason for being suspicious of me. I only said I didn't see any mention of 48 hour phases.

This entire discussion with Bogard feels more like he's trying to establish a case to push me, especially with slipping something so genuinely wrong in there.
????

I said i was referring to the 48h claim


It's pretty clear you're pressured considering not only you're much more active now than before, but you're trying to push a case of me being a liar based on a wrong assumption the moment you feel you're cornered

So one question now for you

- When you read the opening post, did you read the DP1 being exceptionally 48h or not?
No. It's because you lied about what I said. It's pretty fucking clear Bogard.


Reread this.

How is one supposed to not think you're referring to the Opening Post? You phrased it in such a deliberate way as to make it sound like I later said "No wait, I didn't read the OP haha." This is dishonesty at its worst and the most generous view is that you weren't careful when phrasing your wording, but again, given your sudden push with no coherent reason, I am not feeling generous to you.

No, Bogard. I didn't see it; Because I further went on to ask NeutralWatcher in my second fucking post about what he meant.

But I guess this is some grand scum strategy, asking about the game set up and interacting with players! I would've gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you Bogard. Nothing gets past you, huh???


I wouldn't call you a liar if you didn't lie. You purposefully phrased it in a manner that put me in a worse light.

In fact, that's all you've done this entire game. Tell me why it's bad to talk to Neutralwatcher?
Nuh Uh. I know it's a 48 hour Day Phase now, but I'm not entertaining this. This is just further proof of you being scum / having some reason beyond your laughable reads to want me lynched.
Something @Reborn also noticed.
@TheAncientCenturion you said Bogard is lying about not reading op

But he clarified here that he was referring to "you not reading 48 hours info"

So why you still saying he is lying?
It's a pretty clear attempt from mafia trying to take advantage of a misinterpretation to push a townie lynch
 

Reborn

~~Surpass Your Limits, Right here, Right now~~
Ok just read through the thread, and it seems there were many people confused by my actions, so i'd like clarify them before explaining why i believe TAC is scum

- First of all, as i mentioned before, you can never catch scum if you stay passive,

So the reason of my initial agressive play on TAC was to spark a discussion and see the way he'd defend his position to possibly catch on to something(whether he is town or scum)


- Secondly, for the reason above then, of course the initial case would be "weak" considering it's only used to spark discussion, which is also why i wasn't voting TAC at that point

- Thirdly, a scum starting aggressively like this to push town based on a "weak" case can only serve to digging his own grave, would be a stupid mistake to make, and anyone who played with me before when i was scum could tell you, i'd not do this mistake

- Fourthly we have a 48h DP1, something that was even the initial theme of my arguments, so voting at that point could further help to apply pressure on a player and see his reaction

- Lastly, it's through the discussion however that i noticed TAC could really be scum, with the discussion evolving from the initial "48h notice" to TAC hard-pushing me as a liar from a single wrong sentence interpretation, which not only i found intellectually dishonest, but also purposedly playing dumb to try to continuously pushing a case even after i clarified multiple times what i was initially referring to(not reading the part where the DP1 exceptional 48h long was mentioned)

As mentioned here, it was pretty obvious what my point was: https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/round-08-tokyo-ghoul.4223/page-6#post-367023

I've seen that there are few experienced mafia players who also noted something as basic at that like @Reborn or @Dragomir. Hell i think even @RayanOO noticed this, and i already played mafia with TAC, so i don't believe he is this dumb, so i can only view this as a mafia trying to take advantage of a misinterpretation to push a case to lynch a regular town, hence my vote on him

So Drago the point i'm in disagreement with you is when you talked about TAC venting his frustration, i don't think it's the case, but more like him getting pressured and thus using a misinterpretation to push a case to lynch a regular town because he continuously did it even after i clarified it multiple times like Reborn also noted


I'd also like to recommend to town not to think too much about past games. I have not played the previous game with TAC to know, but just because he was town in a previous game doesn't mean he is now. It's a wrong analogy to make
Answer these two questions?

Pushing tac case so hard to Lynch him simply based on something as trivial as that doesn't make sense especially so early on day one.

Do you have anything else on him apart from what you said about his slip and his response to your pressure tactic?

Also, since you have read the thread then give me your reads so far. Apart From tac whom you finding sus?

You clearly don't know what WIFOM is bud. You gotta strenghten your knowledge over this game. The fact that what Bogard is doing does happen to be considered risky is exactly what makes it a feasible scum strategy.

I'm not the only player who believes Bogard to be lining scum for instance, even TAC himself does, who is also an experienced player like me.

Try to ask yourself why you believe that what Bogard is doing is risky and then you get your answer to your questions. And the answer is his case and LANJI's are only different in the shape, but not in the form.
Actually, no. Unvote. Don't feel like voting for Beta.

@Reborn Beta is right. Something being risky is even more reason for why a player, specifically Mafia, would do it. It creates this logic in someone else's head that being: "oh, he's doing something so risky for a scum, so he probably isn't one."

That is WIFOM logic and extremely faulty. You will come across many games in which scum will do shit that you don't expect them to do. For example, voting for their own buddy 5 seconds before the phase ends in order to save the town cop when they could have just not done anything allowing their buddy to be saved and the cop to be lynched. Another example is a player voting for themselves at EoD, thus making their own wagon the lead wagon. In both instances, the players were scum and went on to win the game because they got town cred for doing something that doesn't make sense coming from a wolf.

The only times that logic would hold is if someone did something so outrageous that they can't be scum.
I am open for that possibility but there is also good chance that this isn't the case
 

Bogard

You can't win
Answer these two questions?

Pushing tac case so hard to Lynch him simply based on something as trivial as that doesn't make sense especially so early on day one.

Do you have anything else on him apart from what you said about his slip and his response to your pressure tactic?

Also, since you have read the thread then give me your reads so far. Apart From tac whom you finding sus?
As mentioned, my initial agressive play on TAC was just to see his position. But the real reason i think he is scum is because he continuously tried to paint me as a liar from a single sentence misinterpretation even after i clarified to him what i meant. We already played together in a team before and i don't believe TAC is this dumb

Outside of TAC, i'd recommend to pay attention to the ones who may have attempted to take advantage of the Bogard vs TAC situation.

I have a slight suspicion on Kiwi and Lanji due to their positions during the Bogard vs TAC debate. For Kiwi, i think she tried to hard to play diplomatic at the beginning and for Lanji, i think he might have attempted to protect TAC at one point

I think Finalbeta, Drago, and you are town. For Drago and you, it's because i think you ask the right questions, with your reads being on point. In Final's case, it's because i think he is really trying to find clues on the situation, eventhough his reads are wrong imo, but that's Final we're talking about

For the rest, i think it's still questionable. Need to see more posts from them
 
So let's just approach this from my perspective @Bogard;

From my second comment in this game, you've been pushing me for a very minuscule reason that in no way hints at any alignment. Nothing I said eludes to me being scum. Then, probably more than a handful of posts into this argument, you make a comment that—again if we want to take you at your word—is poorly constructed and lends credence to a completely different interpretation.

Why on earth, after you deciding to push me that far, would I suddenly give you the benefit of the doubt here? The way you said it made it come across much more as a blatant lie. Something I'm HAPPY to call out.

So what reason, based on our interactions of you pushing me for inconsequential matters since the very start of this game, do I have to suddenly go; "Oh. I guess Bogard just made a mistake." instead of believing you're continuing your aggressive stance on me and spreading a lie?

Why would I do this? What reason have you given me to believe you?
 

Bogard

You can't win
So let's just approach this from my perspective @Bogard;

From my second comment in this game, you've been pushing me for a very minuscule reason that in no way hints at any alignment. Nothing I said eludes to me being scum. Then, probably more than a handful of posts into this argument, you make a comment that—again if we want to take you at your word—is poorly constructed and lends credence to a completely different interpretation.

Why on earth, after you deciding to push me that far, would I suddenly give you the benefit of the doubt here? The way you said it made it come across much more as a blatant lie. Something I'm HAPPY to call out.

So what reason, based on our interactions of you pushing me for inconsequential matters since the very start of this game, do I have to suddenly go; "Oh. I guess Bogard just made a mistake." instead of believing you're continuing your aggressive stance on me and spreading a lie?

Why would I do this? What reason have you given me to believe you?
Because there was no mistake? I just wasn't explicit enough, but from the discussion, it was obvious what i meant

This is what i said
instead of believing what he presumably read in opening posts, and then later on turning back the clock into claiming he didn't read it at all.
- I talked about what you presumably read IN opening post. Nothing about not reading opening post, but what you read in that opening post
- The "didn't read it at all" then was linked to WHAT you presumably read IN the opening post, not the opening post itself

Dragomir also noticed what i meant
Bogard wasn't saying that TAC didn't read the OP but that he didn't read where it said that D1 was gonna be 48 hours.
And as the one who was arguing with me, it should have been obvious for you to realize what i meant considering my entire initial argument was resolving around somehow reading opening post, but failing to read the exceptional 48h for DP1
So you somehow managed to read past this


And know that no claims were allowed


But didn't read the part where it was stated DP1 was exceptionally 48h :sticky:

I questioned how you read all that, but somehow managed not to read the DP1 being exceptionally 48h long
Relapse slipped from a single post in a previous game. You can catch scum from a single post, however you can never catch him if you stay passive, so it's important to clear things out now

And this is how it started


I questioned how you read all that, but somehow managed not to read the DP1 being exceptionally 48h long

And this was your reply


Suggesting that it's Neutral's post that confused you about what you read in opening post

---

And this is what you say now



Claiming not to have remembered it at all

At the beginning i wasn't really sure you were scum, but the more you post, the more you're slipping TAC
Claiming not to have remembered it at all
But instead of noticing this, you decided to somehow play dumb and portray me as a liar instead

And even after i clarified multiple times what i meant, you still continued to portray me as a liar.

The only reason you could have decided to do this then is if you wanted to take advantage of a misinterpretation to redirect the lynch on a regular townie when you started being suspicious
 
I didn't sus Bogard. There is still not enough info to lynch. Why are you thinking that I sus Bogard? Also it seems like you want to portray me to have different meta in this game because according to you my meta in last game is no lynch on D1 while in this game you said I sus Bogard.

I asked if it's better for no lynch since there is no claim in this game.
If you read what I said carefully, you would see I was asking if you sus Bogard for pushing a lynch D1. I never said you sussed him. Read what someone says carefully or they will think you are deliberately lying.
 
Okay I skimmed through most of it as there was a lot of repetition.

So far I like what I saw from Queen and Celestia. Queen in particular for throwing cold water on the idea that the Bogard vs TAC interaction is automatically town vs town. If they are smart or experienced players they would know that a D1 fight like that is likely to be construed as town v town as most are doing here. It's risky sure, but impossible? no way.

Not really a fan of what I've seen from Dragomir. His tldr of when people bus in particular is off. Anything is possible in mafia and experienced players know the common strategies and how to subvert expectations. If you are thinking 'scum wouldn't do that' then you've identified a viable strategy for mafia to use. Also didn't like how Dragomir skirted around Celestia's response to him.

I think TAC is town. I sense the same indignation from the last game. Being upset is natural @Reborn if you are town and continually sussed on flimsy reasons.

I don't know what to think about Bogard. I want to think he is town but he took it a bit too far imo. D1 is always coinflippy and I don't see any real benefit for TAC to be lying about the length of the day phase? Like what benefit does scum get from that? Is it likely that he just didn't read the OP carefully? yes. Hell I personally skim read them most of the time.
 
N

NeutralWatcher

If you read what I said carefully, you would see I was asking if you sus Bogard for pushing a lynch D1. I never said you sussed him. Read what someone says carefully or they will think you are deliberately lying.
The question is why did you ask players here that I sus Bogard? There are other players here beside me.

Also your statement in this.

He was adamant last game that a Lynch D1 is sus.

What is your purpose for that statement?
 
The question is why did you ask players here that I sus Bogard? There are other players here beside me.

Also your statement in this.

He was adamant last game that a Lynch D1 is sus.

What is your purpose for that statement?
The purpose is to determine if you are using the same reasoning as yesterday. I would expect that you sus Bogard because he wants a D1 lynch. Same way you sussed me last game for not minding a D1 lynch.
 
N

NeutralWatcher

The purpose is to determine if you are using the same reasoning as yesterday. I would expect that you sus Bogard because he wants a D1 lynch. Same way you sussed me last game for not minding a D1 lynch.
I already asked if no lynch is allowed or not. If I use same reasoning I would not ask that question. Kiwi and Dragomir answered my question. Did you skip that part?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top