Forum Event Royal Rumble General

M

MD Zolo

In order:
I) Moria is not meant to be a charismatic character. He is meant to be a disturbing, unnerving, unnatural, uncomfortable abomination. Thriller Bark’s entire theme revolves around nightmares and horror. When are horror characters meant to be charismatic?

II) This is practically every single supposedly intelligent One Piece character ever. Oda is not particularly good at portraying intelligence. Logical failures include;

• Bege’s entire assassination plan. As much as I like Bege, his plan was an absolute mess that was supposedly developed over two years yet completely relied on conveniences that had happened in the last two days. Even though he saw the scream before, he still somehow failed to take it into account.•Remember when Doflamingo sent out Baby 5 and Buffalo to deal with the Straw Hat crew and Law? Yikes. Or the time he had Luffy absolutely dead to rights but decided to mess around with fodder gladiators for like 10 minutes?•The entire Big Mom Pirate crew. Ignoring Linlin herself as she is in a league of her own, the BMPs practically sent out their entire military might after the Straw Hats even though this makes no sense. Killing off the Germa 66 was the entire purpose of the Tea Party, Bege outright attempted to assassinate Linlin and both the Sun Pirates and Fire Tanks all have inside knowledge of Linlin’s territories. All of these factions should have logically been higher priority targets than the Straw Hats yet they sent practically everything at the one crew that did not matter.
Now I know the failures of others are not Moria’s successes but when most intelligent characters in a series do not act intelligently then that is an author’s fault not a character fault. At least Moria can pin it on his insanity.

III) He effortlessly neg diffed Luffy in their first fight, beat the rest of the Straw Hat and nearly killed Luffy, Zoro, Sanji and Robin. I would say that he performed well enough.
Big Mom is not loved either. You are telling me that Crocodile's plan to create civil war in Alabasta or Doflamingo's plan of subjugating the entire Dressrosa are comparable to Moriah's plan of resurrecting Oars? Failure or not, those plans from Crocodile and Doflamingo were terrifying and caused suffering to countless people. Moriah's plan didn't do jack-sh"t and he couldn't even control him at first. Compared to Crocodile's or Enel's plans, Moriah's plans felt really short.

Secondly, whether he should have Charisma or not based on plot setting is beyond the point. People loves charismatic villains, why do you think Aizen is universally loved?

Thirdly, Crocodile almost killed Luffy twice. Lucci beat the shit out of Luffy so much that he wasn't even able to move till Sogeking started, whatever he started. So, yes, Moriah didn't create the same degree of despair as Crocodile and Lucci, at least I didn't feel it at the time.

You seems to be trying to portray Moriah as adequate villain and adequate villain he is. But since when was adequacy sufficient to garner love when there are better villains out there?

Moriah, as a character is good. But Moriah as a villain is not in the same league as Crocodile, Enel, Lucci and Doflamingo (but better than the mess that is Big Mom and Kaido).
 
Big Mom is not loved either. You are telling me that Crocodile's plan to create civil war in Alabasta or Doflamingo's plan of subjugating the entire Dressrosa are comparable to Moriah's plan of resurrecting Oars? Failure or not, those plans from Crocodile and Doflamingo were terrifying and caused suffering to countless people. Moriah's plan didn't do jack-sh"t and he couldn't even control him at first. Compared to Crocodile's or Enel's plans, Moriah's plans felt really short.
Well now we have moved from the execution of plans in general to comparing the maximum collateral human suffering of the plans? Ok.

Moriah’s plan already had 1000 confirmed victims whom he had forced into living in a state of permanent fear, darkness and despair. He would have continued this if not stopped, forcing as many as he considered necessary to achieve this goal. Living in such dire conditions sounds far worse than getting instantly vaporised by a bomb. The man was also already living in his own island nation.

So yes, Moria’s plan is utterly wicked. The scale of said plan is irrelevant. Are we supposed to look negatively upon the intelligence of any character that does not have a country destroying plan?
Secondly, whether he should have Charisma or not based on plot setting is beyond the point.
It is definitely within the point. If a character is not designed to be charismatic then their lack of charisma is not a point against them, especially when the character (such as Moria) in question is meant to be the opposite of charismatic.
People loves charismatic villains, why do you think Aizen is universally loved?
To the first part of that sentence, that is merely a personal preference. To the second part, really? Well that is clearly beyond my ability to comprehend since I found Aizen to be a mixture of utterly unbearable and completely insufferable. I could not stand him. Charismatic is the last word I would use for him. “Universally loved” is also an appeal to majority, which I have no interest in.

Thirdly, Crocodile almost killed Luffy twice. Lucci beat the shit out of Luffy so much that he wasn't even able to move till Sogeking started, whatever he started. So, yes, Moriah didn't create the same degree of despair as Crocodile and Lucci, at least I didn't feel it at the time.
So when Crocodile and Lucci almost kill Luffy, that causes a sense of despair but when Moria neg diffs Luffy, defeats the entire SH crew and nearly succeeds in killing 1/2 the crew that somehow does not cause despair? I am failing to see the thought process here.
You seems to be trying to portray Moriah as adequate villain and adequate villain he is. But since when was adequacy sufficient to garner love when there are better villains out there?
Love=popularity=appeal to majority. A popular character does not automatically equal a good character.

Adequate=fills role successfully= does it’s job properly=objectively good.
Moriah, as a character is good. But Moriah as a villain is not in the same league as Crocodile, Enel, Lucci and Doflamingo (but better than the mess that is Big Mom and Kaido).
Hmm, so would our disagreement stem from the fact that you hold character role in higher regard than character personality while I hold the opposite opinion?
 
M

MD Zolo

Well now we have moved from the execution of plans in general to comparing the maximum collateral human suffering of the plans? Ok.

Moriah’s plan already had 1000 confirmed victims whom he had forced into living in a state of permanent fear, darkness and despair. He would have continued this if not stopped, forcing as many as he considered necessary to achieve this goal. Living in such dire conditions sounds far worse than getting instantly vaporised by a bomb. The man was also already living in his own island nation.

So yes, Moria’s plan is utterly wicked. The scale of said plan is irrelevant. Are we supposed to look negatively upon the intelligence of any character that does not have a country destroying plan?

It is definitely within the point. If a character is not designed to be charismatic then their lack of charisma is not a point against them, especially when the character (such as Moria) in question is meant to be the opposite of charismatic.

To the first part of that sentence, that is merely a personal preference. To the second part, really? Well that is clearly beyond my ability to comprehend since I found Aizen to be a mixture of utterly unbearable and completely insufferable. I could not stand him. Charismatic is the last word I would use for him. “Universally loved” is also an appeal to majority, which I have no interest in.


So when Crocodile and Lucci almost kill Luffy, that causes a sense of despair but when Moria neg diffs Luffy, defeats the entire SH crew and nearly succeeds in killing 1/2 the crew that somehow does not cause despair? I am failing to see the thought process here.

Love=popularity=appeal to majority. A popular character does not automatically equal a good character.

Adequate=fills role successfully= does it’s job properly=objectively good.

Hmm, so would our disagreement stem from the fact that you hold character role in higher regard than character personality while I hold the opposite opinion?
Your meme was about that Crocodile's character is poorer than Moriah's and yet more loved. I gave you the reasons.

Stealing shadows of people wasn't the plan, it is something Moriah did for a long while. The plan was resurrecting Oars and rule the world. Similar to how Crocodile's plan was to incite a civil war to get to the Poneglyphs. So...which plan had more success? Technically neither. But Crocodile's plan was far more effective because he actually did create a war and got to the Poneglyph while Oars wasn't strong enough to do what Moriah wanted.

So, execution of plan: Moriah - 0, Crocodile - 1.

Also, if Moriah caused suffering of 1000 people, Crocodile caused suffering of the entire nation for a long period. Doflamingo caused suffering for Dressrosa for 10 years. Moriah's doesn't hold a candle.

So, vileness of the plan: Moriah - 0, Crocodile - 1

You say Moriah wasn't designed to be charismatic. Then how do you expect people to love him over a charismatic villain? By definition, charisma means they will be more lovable, is it not? So, not having charisma is a shortcoming of Moriah's character when compared to villains like Crocodile and Doflamingo.

[I won't talk about your criticism of Bleach anymore, it is not objective at all and comes off as snurky and snub]

You will hate me for this following passage but I want to say it nonetheless: You say you don't care about what the majority thinks, well...this is just you trying to be unorthodox for the sake of being unorthodox. There is no substance to it whatsoever. If you say that Moriah is a good character, I can completely understand that and have no objections to it. But if you want to say that Moriah is a better villain than Crocodile or Doflamingo, then I seriously doubt your tastes.

If majority loves somebody, there is definitely a valid reason behind it. And frankly, it is not wrong to judge characters by how much love they can garner or how much hate they can garner.

If you think majority of people will love a worse character rather than a "Better character" then you are basically saying that majority has no taste.
 
N

NeutralWatcher

@Dragomir I would reply back 5 hours later is that okay?

@wordyworm Sorry for the late reply. I would reply back to your argument 5 hours later from now. You're a good debater. It's very difficult to find counter argument to your post.
 
Alright, it is exceedingly late where I am, so I am dropping the Crocodile vs Moria debate in favour of specifically addressing this before I go to sleep.
You will hate me for this following passage but I want to say it nonetheless: You say you don't care about what the majority thinks, well...this is just you trying to be unorthodox for the sake of being unorthodox. There is no substance to it whatsoever. If you say that Moriah is a good character, I can completely understand that and have no objections to it. But if you want to say that Moriah is a better villain than Crocodile or Doflamingo, then I seriously doubt your tastes.
No. If I was attempting to be unorthodox for the sake of being unorthodox then I would go for the exact opposite of what the majority thinks no matter what. I care not if my opinions are orthodox or unorthodox, if they are in line with the majority or not. I aim to objectively praise what I objectively consider to be objectively good. I have plenty of opinions that the majority would find agreeable. It does not matter though.
If majority loves somebody, there is definitely a valid reason behind it. And frankly, it is not wrong to judge characters by how much love they can garner or how much hate they can garner.

If you think majority of people will love a worse character rather than a "Better character" then you are basically saying that majority has no taste.
So you really believe in appeal to majority do you? Hmm, okay. Let us take a look at the last One Piece popularity poll.
Hmm, I see Tashigi above Roger, Blackbeard, Enel, Katakuri and Lucci. I see Carrot and Perona above Whitebeard. Urouge above Dragon. I do not see Akainu anywhere in this list. I do not even recognise who 47th is. Oh and the giant mermaid princess is above Rayleigh.

Now, do you agree with the popular choices? The most “beloved” characters as it were? Do you expect me to objectively agree with everything this list?

To be short, yes. The majority can often have no taste at times and anyone can like anything for whatever reason, no matter how superficial that reasoning may be but ultimately, I do not care. I am not going to go out of my way to either disagree or validate this formless, faceless mass known as “the majority”, a majority that is going to change depending on where it is based anyway. A point is a point and either one has one or one does not.
 
W

wordyworm

@Dragomir I would reply back 5 hours later is that okay?

@wordyworm Sorry for the late reply. I would reply back to your argument 5 hours later from now. You're a good debater. It's very difficult to find counter argument to your post.
No problem and thanks for the compliment, but your argument is pretty strong. Dragon's power to change the world is much greater than Mihawk's, and A LOT of important characters revere him. Unlike Mihawk, who gets teased by Doffy and talked down to by Croco, lol.
 
M

MD Zolo

So you really believe in appeal to majority do you? Hmm, okay. Let us take a look at the last One Piece popularity poll.
Hmm, I see Tashigi above Roger, Blackbeard, Enel, Katakuri and Lucci. I see Carrot and Perona above Whitebeard. Urouge above Dragon. I do not see Akainu anywhere in this list. I do not even recognise who 47th is. Oh and the giant mermaid princess is above Rayleigh.

Now, do you agree with the popular choices? The most “beloved” characters as it were? Do you expect me to objectively agree with everything this list?

To be short, yes. The majority can often have no taste at times and anyone can like anything for whatever reason, no matter how superficial that reasoning may be but ultimately, I do not care. I am not going to go out of my way to either disagree or validate this formless, faceless mass known as “the majority”, a majority that is going to change depending on where it is based anyway. A point is a point and either one has one or one does not.
This is a popularity poll. Basically they are asking, which character do you love? And I don't see how answering Tashigi instead of Roger or Whitebeard makes that person tasteless.

They are not asking which of them is a better character or which of them is the better villain. They are are just asking which character you like best. The person who voted for Tashigi could very well hold Whitebeard in very high regards but likes Tashigi. It doesn't speak to his tastes. You are making it sound like liking Tashigi is a crime or something. [And between Tashigi and Roger, liking Tashigi makes more sense since we know nothing about Roger].

If you think like this, then let's call on our peers here. They are sufficiently knowledgeable about One Piece. Let's ask who they consider as the better villain, Moriah or Crocodile.
 
[I won't talk about your criticism of Bleach anymore, it is not objective at all and comes off as snurky and snub]
Snark and snub are merely tones. I can wrap it up in any tone and you can can perceive it in any tone but a point is a point no matter what supposed tone is intended or perceived. I either have a point or I do not. If you have no counterpoint then perhaps that is something to think about.

This is a popularity poll. Basically they are asking, which character do you love? And I don't see how answering Tashigi instead of Roger or Whitebeard makes that person tasteless.

They are not asking which of them is a better character or which of them is the better villain. They are are just asking which character you like best. The person who voted for Tashigi could very well hold Whitebeard in very high regards but likes Tashigi. It doesn't speak to his tastes. You are making it sound like liking Tashigi is a crime or something. [And between Tashigi and Roger, liking Tashigi makes more sense since we know nothing about Roger].
We might be getting somewhere now. So in the above post you appear to say that popularity does not equal objective quality, correct? So that makes all of the below post.
If majority loves somebody, there is definitely a valid reason behind it. And frankly, it is not wrong to judge characters by how much love they can garner or how much hate they can garner.

If you think majority of people will love a worse character rather than a "Better character" then you are basically saying that majority has no taste.
A pointless read.

The post directly above is clearly attempting to make a connection between a character’s popularity and their objective quality but your previous post seems to state that there is no connection between popularity and objective quality.

Which is it?

If one is arguing that popularity has nothing to do with objective quality then liking Tashigi over a character such as Katakuri or Blackbeard means absolutely nothing. It is merely personal preference.

If one is attempting to argue that popularity does have something to do with objective quality then if one accepts Tashigi as an objectively superior character over Katakuri or Blackbeard because of her popularity then that is simply mind boggling.

Now, I do not believe whatsoever that popularity or personal preference has anything to do with objective quality. I have said so in the past.
Anyone can “like” anything for any superficial reasoning. One can “like” a character based on nothing but their design such as myself with Urouge. My own fondness for Urouge’s character design does not make him an objectively good character though.

If I thought long and hard about every single character in One Piece and ranked them all purely on objective quality then I highly doubt Urouge would even make it into the Top 150.
However, if one is going to claim otherwise then this popularity poll should be gospel by appeal to majority logic.

If you think like this, then let's call on our peers here. They are sufficiently knowledgeable about One Piece. Let's ask who they consider as the better villain, Moriah or Crocodile.
Was this the original debate? You yourself seemed to make a distinction between superior character and superior villain.
Moriah, as a character is good. But Moriah as a villain is not in the same league as Crocodile, Enel, Lucci and Doflamingo (but better than the mess that is Big Mom and Kaido).
Which is strange since my original post was about Moria as a character.
A bit of a shame really. Moria is quite underrated and in my opinion, can objectively beat other popular antagonists such as Crocodile in a character debate.
What did you say about Moria’s character?
Sure, there is more layers to Moriah's character than Crocodile's.


I am not denying that Moriah has a lot of character points, but they don't add to my enjoyment of his character significantly to offset some of the negative things I mentioned.
The main things I argued against were;
  1. Lacks Charisma
  2. Lacks well-executed plan
  3. Lacks effectiveness (as in produce a sense of complete despair)
The charisma claim being a point against Moria, since a Moria is not meant to be charismatic to begin with. This is like holding Crocodile’s lack of goofiness against him when he is not meant to be a goofy character or Mihawk’s stoic attitude against him despite the fact he is meant to be stoic. Judging a character for what they are not even supposed to be is counterproductive to any debate.

I also argued against Moria’s supposed ineffectiveness which was somehow interpreted as an argument of superiority over Crocodile or Doflamingo’s (how did he come into the argument?) master plans. I actually agreed that Moria’s plan was ultimately dumb but that got lost somehow. Then we got into a debate about levels of evil involving body counts.
Also, if Moriah caused suffering of 1000 people, Crocodile caused suffering of the entire nation for a long period. Doflamingo caused suffering for Dressrosa for 10 years. Moriah's doesn't hold a candle.

So, vileness of the plan: Moriah - 0, Crocodile - 1
So more suffering = superior antagonist? By that logic, no one in One Piece can compare to Frieza or Buu since those guys casually wiped out multiple planets, over decades in Frieza’s case.
 
M

MD Zolo

Snark and snub are merely tones. I can wrap it up in any tone and you can can perceive it in any tone but a point is a point no matter what supposed tone is intended or perceived. I either have a point or I do not. If you have no counterpoint then perhaps that is something to think about.


We might be getting somewhere now. So in the above post you appear to say that popularity does not equal objective quality, correct? So that makes all of the below post.

A pointless read.

The post directly above is clearly attempting to make a connection between a character’s popularity and their objective quality but your previous post seems to state that there is no connection between popularity and objective quality.

Which is it?

If one is arguing that popularity has nothing to do with objective quality then liking Tashigi over a character such as Katakuri or Blackbeard means absolutely nothing. It is merely personal preference.

If one is attempting to argue that popularity does have something to do with objective quality then if one accepts Tashigi as an objectively superior character over Katakuri or Blackbeard because of her popularity then that is simply mind boggling.

Now, I do not believe whatsoever that popularity or personal preference has anything to do with objective quality. I have said so in the past.

However, if one is going to claim otherwise then this popularity poll should be gospel by appeal to majority logic.


Was this the original debate? You yourself seemed to make a distinction between superior character and superior villain.

Which is strange since my original post was about Moria as a character.
What did you say about Moria’s character?

The main things I argued against were;
The charisma claim being a point against Moria, since a Moria is not meant to be charismatic to begin with. This is like holding Crocodile’s lack of goofiness against him when he is not meant to be a goofy character or Mihawk’s stoic attitude against him despite the fact he is meant to be stoic. Judging a character for what they are not even supposed to be is counterproductive to any debate.

I also argued against Moria’s supposed ineffectiveness which was somehow interpreted as an argument of superiority over Crocodile or Doflamingo’s (how did he come into the argument?) master plans. I actually agreed that Moria’s plan was ultimately dumb but that got lost somehow. Then we got into a debate about levels of evil involving body counts.

So more suffering = superior antagonist? By that logic, no one in One Piece can compare to Frieza or Buu since those guys casually wiped out multiple planets, over decades in Frieza’s case.
I will be attending a meeting soon, so I can't do a point-by-point rebuttals of your logic here right now, give me 2-3 hours.

I will say this: I was responding to your meme where you are perplexed as to why Crocodile is more loved than Moriah, and that is what I was trying to explain.

I never used the term "better character" to explain why Crocodile is more loved than Moriah, I consistently said "better villain". Nobody here can deny that.

As to your claim of "pointless read". I will show you how I have never been inconsistent in this regard either and how you are the one who keep changing the playing field.

To be continued...
 
I will say this: I was responding to your meme where you are perplexed as to why Crocodile is more loved than Moriah, and that is what I was trying to explain.
I never expressed any confusion over this. The main focus of my post was also not about popularity. I merely noted the popularity of each character and re-used a meme I made sometime last year to provide a cheap giggle.
Moria is a rare example of an objectively good character that sufficiently fills their role in the story but who ended up unpopular regardless.

A bit of a shame really. Moria is quite underrated and in my opinion, can objectively beat other popular antagonists such as Crocodile in a character debate.

The One Piece Character description series was surely my greatest work as a memegaka. :akaman:
The bolded was the main point of that post. The parts about popularity were irrelevant, including the meme. Also, I said “can beat”, not will beat. “Can” implies that it is possibility, “will” implies that it is a certainty.

So for clarification, no, I do not consider Moria as to be undeniably superior to Crocodile, just that in a debate, Moria is a good enough character to go to head to head against certain characters (who are coincidentally comparatively more popular) in a debate setting such as Royal Rumble.
I never used the term "better character" to explain why Crocodile is more loved than Moriah, I consistently said "better villain". Nobody here can deny that.
I never used the term “better villain”. I also never discussed popularity in regards to Moria vs Crocodile as it was not the point of my original post thus I considered it completely irrelevant.

As to your claim of "pointless read". I will show you how I have never been inconsistent in this regard either and how you are the one who keep changing the playing field.
It appears that the problem is not that the playing field was being changed but rather that the participants were playing two different sports from the start.
To be continued...
Feel free to continue but know that I have lost interest as this is going nowhere, especially if the response has anything to do with popularity. My posts were never about popularity and I have made my opinion on the value of popularity/appeal to majority quite clear.

To quote a certain character, “Adoration is the furthest state from understanding”.
 
M

MD Zolo

I never expressed any confusion over this. The main focus of my post was also not about popularity. I merely noted the popularity of each character and re-used a meme I made sometime last year to provide a cheap giggle.

The bolded was the main point of that post. The parts about popularity were irrelevant, including the meme. Also, I said “can beat”, not will beat. “Can” implies that it is possibility, “will” implies that it is a certainty.

So for clarification, no, I do not consider Moria as to be undeniably superior to Crocodile, just that in a debate, Moria is a good enough character to go to head to head against certain characters (who are coincidentally comparatively more popular) in a debate setting such as Royal Rumble.

I never used the term “better villain”. I also never discussed popularity in regards to Moria vs Crocodile as it was not the point of my original post thus I considered it completely irrelevant.


It appears that the problem is not that the playing field was being changed but rather that the participants were playing two different sports from the start.

Feel free to continue but know that I have lost interest as this is going nowhere, especially if the response has anything to do with popularity. My posts were never about popularity and I have made my opinion on the value of popularity/appeal to majority quite clear.

To quote a certain character, “Adoration is the furthest state from understanding”.
This is not the proper place for it, so I apologise to everybody including Dragomir and Natalija and promise that this will be my last response regarding this matter. With that said, I will continue...

Let's start at the beginning:

A bit of a shame really. Moria is quite underrated and in my opinion, can objectively beat other popular antagonists such as Crocodile in a character debate.
undefined
You said that Moriah can beat other popular characters in a character debate. However, your meme was that Moriah was unloved because he is "ugly" and Crocodile was loved because he is "hot". Can you deny this? No!! Thank you.

This was my response:

Crocodile and Moriah are judged as villains, not regular characters. As a villain, Moriah was completely ineffective while Crocodile was unbelievably effective.

So, Crocodile being loved over Moriah is completely justified. The reason Moriah is unpopular is because compared to Crocodile, Enel and Lucci, Moriah's villainy lacked any dent. Who wants to see a villain that wants others to do things he/she is supposed to do?
I said that there is valid reason to not like Moriah compared to Crocodile and it has nothing to do with "uglyness" or "hotness". I pointed out that Moriah was an ineffective villain who lacked dent.

So, now, you tried to debunk my points.

I do not really see how Moria was ineffective as an antagonist. He straight up nearly wiped out the Straw Hats by himself. He personally outfought Luffy in his first encounter as well as outsmarted Robin and Usopp.
Now, you could've said that you are talking about his character and not his villainy, but instead you tried to prove that he is just as good a villain as Crocodile and Doflamingo. In another words, now the playing field was to prove who was the better villain, not better character. You walked into this field yourself.

In any case, this was my response:

Sure, there is more layers to Moriah's character than Crocodile's. But those layers didn't add to his villainy. We want villains who are enjoyable to watch. Moriah:
  1. Lacks Charisma
  2. Lacks well-executed plan
  3. Lacks effectiveness (as in produce a sense of complete despair)
Where other villains like Crocodile, Enel, Lucci and Doflamingo excelled in at least two of them. I mean, Moriah got out-villained by Kuma in his own arc.

Consequently, they were more enjoyable than Moriah. Thus they are more loved. I am not denying that Moriah has a lot of character points, but they don't add to my enjoyment of his character significantly to offset some of the negative things I mentioned.
In my response I put forward some reasons as to why he was not as good a villain as Crocodile and Doflamingo. I also said that I believed Moriah to be a good character.

Again, you tried to debunk my points. Remember, you are still playing in the field where we are trying to prove who is the better villain. This was your exact quote:

In order:
I) Moria is not meant to be a charismatic character. He is meant to be a disturbing, unnerving, unnatural, uncomfortable abomination. Thriller Bark’s entire theme revolves around nightmares and horror. When are horror characters meant to be charismatic?

II) This is practically every single supposedly intelligent One Piece character ever. Oda is not particularly good at portraying intelligence. Logical failures include;

• Bege’s entire assassination plan. As much as I like Bege, his plan was an absolute mess that was supposedly developed over two years yet completely relied on conveniences that had happened in the last two days. Even though he saw the scream before, he still somehow failed to take it into account.​
•Remember when Doflamingo sent out Baby 5 and Buffalo to deal with the Straw Hat crew and Law? Yikes. Or the time he had Luffy absolutely dead to rights but decided to mess around with fodder gladiators for like 10 minutes?​
•The entire Big Mom Pirate crew. Ignoring Linlin herself as she is in a league of her own, the BMPs practically sent out their entire military might after the Straw Hats even though this makes no sense. Killing off the Germa 66 was the entire purpose of the Tea Party, Bege outright attempted to assassinate Linlin and both the Sun Pirates and Fire Tanks all have inside knowledge of Linlin’s territories. All of these factions should have logically been higher priority targets than the Straw Hats yet they sent practically everything at the one crew that did not matter.​

Now I know the failures of others are not Moria’s successes but when most intelligent characters in a series do not act intelligently then that is an author’s fault not a character fault. At least Moria can pin it on his insanity.

III) He effortlessly neg diffed Luffy in their first fight, beat the rest of the Straw Hat and nearly killed Luffy, Zoro, Sanji and Robin. I would say that he performed well enough.

Firstly, Kuma only stepped in after Moria was defeated, so he never truly interfered with Moria as a villain or antagonist. If anything, he immediately proved Moria’s warnings to be 100% correct.

Secondly, when did Kuma ever do anything “villainous”? He served as an antagonist in so much that he opposed the protagonists, sure but a villain? Nah. Kuma has never been portrayed as an morally evil individual.
I still don't see you trying to prove Moriah to be a better character, rather a better villain. So, I was still debating in that line. When doing it, I put forward "charisma" as an important factor for being a loved villain. I still think it is an important factor because by definition, somebody who has charisma will be loved. This is where you strayed from your playing field and started a new playing field.

Love=popularity=appeal to majority. A popular character does not automatically equal a good character.

Adequate=fills role successfully= does it’s job properly=objectively good.
At the time I didn't object to this, but in hindsight, I should had. Moriah didn't "fill his role successfully" anymore than Crocodile or Doflamingo. So Crocodile and Doflamingo are both "adequate" (by your definition) and "loved". So, even by your own standard, Doflamingo and Crocodile is above Moriah.

Hmm, so would our disagreement stem from the fact that you hold character role in higher regard than character personality while I hold the opposite opinion?
This is nonsense. How should a villain be judged? His character points only?!! He will be judged by his villainy, if he is not a good villain or not good enough to compete with other villains the same series has offered, then he is poorer villain, because he failed to perform his function in the same vain as his predecessor and successors. It is simple, even objective analysis requires internal standards and as per internal standards, Moriah is below Crocodile and Doflamingo.

A pointless read.

The post directly above is clearly attempting to make a connection between a character’s popularity and their objective quality but your previous post seems to state that there is no connection between popularity and objective quality.

Which is it?

If one is arguing that popularity has nothing to do with objective quality then liking Tashigi over a character such as Katakuri or Blackbeard means absolutely nothing. It is merely personal preference.

If one is attempting to argue that popularity does have something to do with objective quality then if one accepts Tashigi as an objectively superior character over Katakuri or Blackbeard because of her popularity then that is simply mind boggling.

Now, I do not believe whatsoever that popularity or personal preference has anything to do with objective quality. I have said so in the past.
I have immense respect for Whitebeard. I like him and believe him to be a fantastic character. But in a popularity poll, I will vote for Zoro because I like Zoro the most.

Now, does that diminish my opinion of Whitebeard? No. I still consider him to be an amazing character.

Similarly, I consider Crocodile to be a fantastic villain and above Moriah. But how do I say that in a poll? I can't.

You are using a poll to justify a claim but this poll is not an indicator of Majority opinion at all. All you are doing is criminalizing the idea of liking somebody as an offense of not liking somebody else. But that is not true. The poll itself doesn't reflect people opinions about all characters in OP.

You can't use it like this.

Overall, I found your flow of logic unpalatable and outright bad. Whatever you tried to prove in this little exercise with me, you failed to do it and managed to sound like a "critic who is culturally above everybody else".

________The End_______​
 
W

wordyworm

I think I missed the deadline for replying to @NeutralWatcher. I know he's got the W but I don't want to leave him hanging. Can I get an extension or would you all rather call it finished as is? Today has been crazy for me and I haven't had time to draft a rebuttal.
 
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