Current Events Some Thoughts on a Potential Confrontation Between Zoro and King

Expectations for Zoro vs King


  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
#43
Currently, I believe that Zoro's injuries would persist, and that if he fights King, he'll do so while heavily "nerfed". As such, King doesn't need to be > Marco to give Zoro a very difficult/tense fight.
:milaugh:

You are correct. At this point, a #4 or a #5 is no longer possible.
#5 is happening right now.

10xx rise of roronoa
ice demon zoro one shooting king and queen and save his wife
:milaugh:

So what benefit Zoro get from fighting King?
Cutting someone more durable than Dragon Kaido.

If Enma is turning Black, it will only be against Kaido. Nothing else makes narrative sense.

Turning Enma black was a feat even Oden could not accomplish:


It's not going to be accomplished against the likes of King
Not too late to jump the train, Cin.

Zoro has already expressed that his only interest in this arc is Kaido, not any of the subordinates.
And right now Zoro is heavily interested finding out King's secrets.


@TheAncientCenturion
 
#45
Disclaimer
This was written during my hiatus in a PM with @ZenZu, as such it may be a bit dated. I added some new information, but keep that in mind.

I'm only posting it now because people have been complaining that I'm not posting about Zoro.

As usual, I tag a lot of people for my posts. If you want to be removed from my tag lists, let me know. Likewise, if you want to be added.


Introduction

I don't think that Zoro fighting King (if it indeed happens) would mean that Zoro is a high tier or comparable to YC 1s. For one, we don't actually know how strong King is. Oda could make him anywhere from comparable to Queen to significantly stronger than Marco.


Possibilities for a Zoro vs King Fight
There are a few main ways I think Zoro vs King can go:
  1. Zoro stomps him
    • Think Zoro vs Captain T-Bone or Zoro vs Hyouzou.
  2. King is challenging because Zoro is very injured
    • Think Zoro vs Hatchan
  3. Zoro uses King as a training dummy for his Advanced COC
    • Think Luffy's battles in Udon
  4. King is a match for a recovered Zoro and gives him a difficult and beautiful swordsman fight
    • Think Zoro vs Ryuma
  5. King is above a recovered Zoro and forces Zoro to surpass himself and or power up to beat him
    • Think Zoro vs Kaku
      • E.g. Zoro finally masters imbuing COC into his attacks and that's what lets him beat King
      • Zoro has to use Asura to beat King
    • Zoro vs Daz Bones is another example, but inapplicable here after Zoro cut Kaido.
      • Zoro also already knows how to cut fire.
If any of the first three options play out, then Zoro is indeed much stronger than Yonkou 1st Commanders (and by extension all high tiers).


Relative Standing of Zoro and King
The issue is if Oda wants #4 or #5 to happen. If Oda intends for King to give Zoro a solid high difficulty fight or for Zoro to surpass King, then Oda has a problem; right now, Zoro appears to be considerably stronger than King. Zoro wouldn't be the underdog in this fight, but rather King would be.

In #4/#5 style fights, Zoro's opponents always look very formidable if not outright superior to Zoro:
  • Against Daz Bones, Daz looked stronger at the beginning, with Zoro unable to cut steel.
  • Against Kaku, Kaku looked stronger with CP 9 having already stomped the Strawhats in Water 7.
  • Against Ryuma, Ryuma looked like a formidable opponent having negged and troll diffed Brook.
    • He was also the Zombie of a legendary swordsman.

Contrast King:
  • He's taking damage from Marco in a 2 vs 1
  • He has no independently superior portrayal to Queen
Vs Zoro:
  • His Hiryuu Kaen terrified the Yonkou and made Mama warn Kaido to dodge out of fear of his life
  • He overpowered Kaido's Tatsumaki and cut him up
  • He fought both Yonkou along with the other Supernova for several tens of minutes to a few hours
  • He briefly stopped a finisher combination attack of both Yonkou
  • He endured said combination attack and kept on fighting even while every bone in his body was shattered
  • He blitzed Mama on several occasions
  • He bested Kaido in a short 1 vs 1 clash, parrying his attacks, blitzing and grievously wounding him.
    • He left a scar on Kaido and is only the 2nd person to do so.
    • Top tiers that Kaido seems to have fought that failed to scar him:
      • Roger
      • Whitebeard
      • Shanks
      • Mama
      • Admirals
    • He did all of this while every bone in his body was shattered
Zoro looks much stronger than King. Like given King's current feats and portrayal (if you take them at face value), it appears that Zoro would murk him really badly. If Zoro and King were to fight right now, then their respective feats and portrayal make King a massive underdog.

If Oda wants to have #4 or #5 happen, he's going to drastically raise King's standing. He's not going to have Zoro face a difficult fight when his opponent is a massive underdog.


Elevating King's Standing
There are caveats to King's poor portrayal so far that could be used to greatly elevate his standing and make him look like a formidable opponent for Zoro:
  • In his fight with Marco, King appears to have been massively holding back. He has not used:
    • His fire powers
    • His hybrid form
    • Any named attacks
    • Any form of haki at all
  • Several details of King have been hidden that could vastly raise his threat level:
    • The secret of his race that led BM to covet him
      • His race could have several quirks that could greatly elevate his threat level. Perhaps undying fire qualities
  • His bounty
    • Revealing a bounty above Luffy's/Marco's would greatly elevate his threat.
  • Oda could grant King several qualities that would raise his standing:
    • He could reveal that King is a Conqueror
      • If he wants King to force Zoro to grow/evolve, he could also grant King Advanced COC (an ability that Kaido said is exclusive to "a handful of the very strongest").
  • He could grant King Awakening for his Devil Fruit
    • I expect that Zoan Awakening works like Chopper's Monster Point (in addition to improved recovery and resilience)
  • Oda could have King straight up overpower Marco once he stops jobbing
Fundamentally, King can be as strong as Oda wants to make him. If Oda intends for King to give a healthy Zoro a difficult fight, he's going to make him much stronger than he appears to be now.


Might King be a Top Tier?
Consider this my response to the above claim. Based on his current feats/portrayal, King is definitely not a top tier. But based on his current feats and portrayal, King is not going to give a recovered Zoro a difficult fight. Oda is not going to have King begin his fight against Zoro looking like a massive underdog, and then proceed to actually challenge Zoro. That's just not how Shounen storytelling works. Whenever the protagonists are giving difficult battles, they begin the battles as the underdogs.

I don't think it's impossible for King to be a top tier. Or more specifically, if Oda proceeds to hype up King along the paths I described, he'll make King so much more formidable as an opponent than Katakuri, that the high tier spectrum cannot accommodate him (I have Marco at Peak High Tier, and Katakuri as High or Peak High Tier. Decisively besting Marco when he goes all out would place King above those currently considered to be the most formidable high tiers).

Alternatively, Kaido said that cladding yourself with COC is an ability exclusive to "a handful of the very strongest"; if King is revealed to possess such an ability — a development that would grant meaning to Zoro vs King, as it would play an actual role in Zoro's development as a fighter — then King is automatically a top tier.


Expectations of Zoro vs King
All the above is premised on King fighting Zoro and giving him a #4 or #5 style battle. I don't actually consider those to be likely outcomes at this point, but if Oda does intend to pursue that path, I can't imagine how Oda would depict King as anything other than what would be considered a top tier (or at least, he'll show King to be above Marco).

More likely, Zoro wouldn't fight King or if he does, we get a battle in the style of #1 to #3. If King is revealed to indeed have a bounty significantly higher than Marco/Luffy and proceeds to defeat Marco, it would raise his standing enough that he isn't a massive underdog when he faces Zoro. Adding Awakening and (Advanced) COC would be enough to make him feel enough of a legitimate threat that a battle with Zoro would have actual tension in it again.

If I was to place any bets on what type of fight a potential Zoro vs King would be, I'd guess #2 (perhaps with some flavour of #3). Zoro has been heavily injured:



And I'm really sceptical that Oda will magic away those injuries. Oda didn't magic away:
  • Zoro's injuries from his battle with Mihawk.
    • It lasted until at least the end of Arlong Park.
  • Zoro's injuries from taking all of Luffy's damage.
    • It lasted until after Marineford.

History suggests that Oda doesn't magic away Zoro's injuries when there's a narrative purpose to them. Zoro may recover somewhat before his next fight(s), but he's unlikely to be fully healed.

Essentially, it's not that Oda can't heal Zoro, it's that narratively he wouldn't. Magicking away Zoro's damage means that Hakai had no consequences and Zoro's "sacrifice" was never actually a sacrifice at all.

Furthermore, Oda is loathe to pass on the opportunities to demonstrate Zoro shining even — no especially — in the face of adversity:




Defeating King while heavily injured could be the latest display of that.



Summary
To summarise what I've said above:
  • King's true combat ability is unknown
  • King is currently the perceived underdog in a fight with a healthy Zoro, so if Oda intended for King to fight a healthy Zoro (and for the battle not to be devoid of tension), he'll substantially elevate King's combat ability first:
    • He could grant King a bounty higher than Marco.
    • He could have King defeat Marco.
    • He could make King a Conqueror and grant him the ability to clad his attacks in COC.
    • He could grant King a powerup related to his race.
    • He could make King's hybrid form especially imposing.
    • He could grant King Awakening for his Devil Fruit.
  • Zoro will probably fight King while heavily injured. Zoro's poor condition will be the source of the difficulty.
King whooped Zoros ass and made him look like a piece of trash
 
#48
:milaugh:


#5 is happening right now.


:milaugh:


Cutting someone more durable than Dragon Kaido.


Not too late to jump the train, Cin.


And right now Zoro is heavily interested finding out King's secrets.


@TheAncientCenturion
Turning Enma Black against King is starting to make a lot more sense
@Tyki_Mikk @TheAncientCenturion @Topi Jerami
King is an unidentified lost race heralded as a God atop the Red Island. Some individuals here were stating that the properties of Kings skin have the same attributes as the Red line itself. (Not confirming it, but I’ve seen Viz or scan translators say that Kings skin is supposedly red? Or the same kanji marks as Shanks hair color)

If that’s the case Kings skin color being red, his race residing on top of the red line, could further add credence to his durability being similar to the material of the red line rock.

And if that’s the case, we know the Red Line rock is not damageable from what we know so far. And Haki (especially Zoro’s) has been given immense weight in the Post Timeskip.

Perhaps we are baited from the beginning into thinking Zoro learns to cut fire through this King fight. When in reality Zoro is learning how to cut King, an “extraterrestrial being” like the Red Line itself??

And for that he needs the top tier Haki, Adv CoC, since CoA has not done anything yet.

If this pans out how I think it will, it’s really hard to imagine how this Shiryu fight against Zoro will go :milaugh:

And even Mihawks fight, weight as a character just doubled, if King is this impressive.

Thoughts?

Also @Paperchampion23 @Jew D. Boy @bennbeckman @Peroroncino @TheKnightOfTheSea if y’all wanna chime in
 

Peroroncino

🅷🅰🅻🅰 🅼🅰🅳🆁🅸🅳
#49
Turning Enma Black against King is starting to make a lot more sense
@Tyki_Mikk @TheAncientCenturion @Topi Jerami
King is an unidentified lost race heralded as a God atop the Red Island. Some individuals here were stating that the properties of Kings skin have the same attributes as the Red line itself. (Not confirming it, but I’ve seen Viz or scan translators say that Kings skin is supposedly red? Or the same kanji marks as Shanks hair color)

If that’s the case Kings skin color being red, his race residing on top of the red line, could further add credence to his durability being similar to the material of the red line rock.

And if that’s the case, we know the Red Line rock is not damageable from what we know so far. And Haki (especially Zoro’s) has been given immense weight in the Post Timeskip.

Perhaps we are baited from the beginning into thinking Zoro learns to cut fire through this King fight. When in reality Zoro is learning how to cut King, an “extraterrestrial being” like the Red Line itself??

And for that he needs the top tier Haki, Adv CoC, since CoA has not done anything yet.

If this pans out how I think it will, it’s really hard to imagine how this Shiryu fight against Zoro will go :milaugh:

And even Mihawks fight, weight as a character just doubled, if King is this impressive.

Thoughts?

Also @Paperchampion23 @Jew D. Boy @bennbeckman @Peroroncino @TheKnightOfTheSea if y’all wanna chime in
yuderon just theorized King got a body as hard as diamond, diamond is formed with heat which is one of king's powers. I hope he's right.
 
#50
Turning Enma Black against King is starting to make a lot more sense
@Tyki_Mikk @TheAncientCenturion @Topi Jerami
King is an unidentified lost race heralded as a God atop the Red Island. Some individuals here were stating that the properties of Kings skin have the same attributes as the Red line itself. (Not confirming it, but I’ve seen Viz or scan translators say that Kings skin is supposedly red? Or the same kanji marks as Shanks hair color)

If that’s the case Kings skin color being red, his race residing on top of the red line, could further add credence to his durability being similar to the material of the red line rock.

And if that’s the case, we know the Red Line rock is not damageable from what we know so far. And Haki (especially Zoro’s) has been given immense weight in the Post Timeskip.

Perhaps we are baited from the beginning into thinking Zoro learns to cut fire through this King fight. When in reality Zoro is learning how to cut King, an “extraterrestrial being” like the Red Line itself??

And for that he needs the top tier Haki, Adv CoC, since CoA has not done anything yet.

If this pans out how I think it will, it’s really hard to imagine how this Shiryu fight against Zoro will go :milaugh:

And even Mihawks fight, weight as a character just doubled, if King is this impressive.

Thoughts?

Also @Paperchampion23 @Jew D. Boy @bennbeckman @Peroroncino @TheKnightOfTheSea if y’all wanna chime in
I think it's something though Zoro has seen in the past. This is one where the readers are clueless to what'll transpire because usually there is an underlying theme to Zoro in someterm of power connection. Daz Bone was cutting steel, Zoro was Asura, now this... nothing connects to Zoro and his power but to him and his critical thinking which is a more interesting angle.
 
#51
yuderon just theorized King got a body as hard as diamond, diamond is formed with heat which is one of king's powers. I hope he's right.
I don’t think it’s quite Diamond, but something quite different, something we’ve literally never seen in one piece, but it is on its own level
Daz Bones - Zoro needed Haki or - BOAT
Ohm - Zoro needed air slashes - Phoenix
Kaku - Zoro needed more fire power - Asura
King - Zoro needs ACoC - Black Blade
 
#52
I don’t think it’s quite Diamond, but something quite different, something we’ve literally never seen in one piece, but it is on its own level
Daz Bones - Zoro needed Haki or - BOAT
Ohm - Zoro needed air slashes - Phoenix
Kaku - Zoro needed more fire power - Asura
King - Zoro needs ACoC - Black Blade
Black Blade has been hinted at.... BUT not during King fight, it seems figuring out what King's race is, is more important that black blade.

Also odd that the chapter is called Oden's beloved Sword instead of a Zoro/King focused Chapter. Zoro winning this fight will most likely be involved with Zoro and Enma we just dont know what, but ACoC seems to be the primary and most reasonable guess
 

Peroroncino

🅷🅰🅻🅰 🅼🅰🅳🆁🅸🅳
#53
I don’t think it’s quite Diamond, but something quite different, something we’ve literally never seen in one piece, but it is on its own level
Daz Bones - Zoro needed Haki or - BOAT
Ohm - Zoro needed air slashes - Phoenix
Kaku - Zoro needed more fire power - Asura
King - Zoro needs ACoC - Black Blade
he says the king of DIAMONDS was modeled after julius caesar who became emperor like king's emperor flames.
 
#54
Turning Enma Black against King is starting to make a lot more sense
@Tyki_Mikk @TheAncientCenturion @Topi Jerami
King is an unidentified lost race heralded as a God atop the Red Island. Some individuals here were stating that the properties of Kings skin have the same attributes as the Red line itself. (Not confirming it, but I’ve seen Viz or scan translators say that Kings skin is supposedly red? Or the same kanji marks as Shanks hair color)

If that’s the case Kings skin color being red, his race residing on top of the red line, could further add credence to his durability being similar to the material of the red line rock.

And if that’s the case, we know the Red Line rock is not damageable from what we know so far. And Haki (especially Zoro’s) has been given immense weight in the Post Timeskip.

Perhaps we are baited from the beginning into thinking Zoro learns to cut fire through this King fight. When in reality Zoro is learning how to cut King, an “extraterrestrial being” like the Red Line itself??

And for that he needs the top tier Haki, Adv CoC, since CoA has not done anything yet.

If this pans out how I think it will, it’s really hard to imagine how this Shiryu fight against Zoro will go :milaugh:

And even Mihawks fight, weight as a character just doubled, if King is this impressive.

Thoughts?

Also @Paperchampion23 @Jew D. Boy @bennbeckman @Peroroncino @TheKnightOfTheSea if y’all wanna chime in
I agree that Zoro will definitely turn Enma black. The amount of Haki it keeps drawing from him, combined with its use over 50 years implies it will soon (I think Wado will happen later). Against King this makes sense all things considering (I was actually against this until recently) But I also think this leaves room for a ton if growth even still. Zoro is only just beginning to learn of his conquerors, something I also expect he potentially will use in a clash against King.

I think Shiryu just has more going for him than we think, same with the Monk Gorosei or Fuji (assuming they potentially are Zoro opponents along with Mihawk). The thing with the invisibility DF is that I assume either the user requires strong observation Haki or it might bypass Haki all together. This might honestly be Zoro's Achilles heel, as he hasn't really displayed it at all
 
#55
I guess I was wrong.
The premise of the thread was not bad but i think we talked about this before, you equate attack power with overall level, hence the difference between what you imagined would happen and what is happening.
Both BM and Kaidou were almost immovable objects as target (yet Zoro still missed btw), and the alliance was fighting 5vs2, meaning they essentially got free shot over free shot. The fact that Zoro had the greatest attack power of the alliance was apparent (even Luffy), Zoro´s attack power is significantly above high tier level (based on who is actually at that level, commanders and so forth) but they have different abilities in turn that Zoro does not have, speed, CoO, maneuverability and so forth. And Zoro stans always denied this point, claiming Zoro is not lacking, but is even superior in those abilities (attack speed, FS does not matter, Zoro is faster than Luffy/Kata...), which was substantiated by nothing. And this is the result, a high speed opponent with good attack power for high tier level, and Zoro is getting destroyed right now. And he articulates the main problem in this chapter.



I think we will need an Asura moment at this point, since this fight reminds me of Kaku. Unlike Mr 1 and Ohm, Kaku was not an opponent that required Zoro to overcome a specific matchup issue (cutting steel, CoO), but he was overall a very tough opponent, from Tekkai (defense, like King´s wings and also sword user) to Rankyaku (attack power, like King with his attacks) coupled with being a Zoan. What it will be, who knows, turning Enma black is one possibility, though i do not see how Enma turning black and thus increasing the hardness -> and thus attack power increases the chances of actually hitting King. A CoO upgrade might also be possible, considering that Mihawk seems to be a significant master in it as well.
 
#56
I agree that Zoro will definitely turn Enma black. The amount of Haki it keeps drawing from him, combined with its use over 50 years implies it will soon (I think Wado will happen later). Against King this makes sense all things considering (I was actually against this until recently) But I also think this leaves room for a ton if growth even still. Zoro is only just beginning to learn of his conquerors, something I also expect he potentially will use in a clash against King.

I think Shiryu just has more going for him than we think, same with the Monk Gorosei or Fuji (assuming they potentially are Zoro opponents along with Mihawk). The thing with the invisibility DF is that I assume either the user requires strong observation Haki or it might bypass Haki all together. This might honestly be Zoro's Achilles heel, as he hasn't really displayed it at all
I actually agree with the Shiryu part
 
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