In the spring of 2009, Oda and Inoue met to discuss Inoue's exhibition in Kumamoto and just talk about many other topics.
I searched for this interview in English, but the site where this interview was published is no longer available. Therefore, I decided to create this topic so that it would be easier for people who also want to read this interview to find it.
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I searched for this interview in English, but the site where this interview was published is no longer available. Therefore, I decided to create this topic so that it would be easier for people who also want to read this interview to find it.
If this interview should be somewhere else on this forum, moderators please move it to its proper place
Inoue: This is our first time meeting, isn't it?
Oda: Well, actually a long time ago I got an autograph from you.
Inoue: Really!? When?
Oda: It was at the Shueisha Tezuka/Akazuka awards party. I had just debuted then and I was extremely nervous. You also drew me a regent-style illustration of Hanamichi Sakuragi. I've still got it.
Inoue: Is that right? I'm sorry, I don't remember that. (laughs)
Oda: No problem. That party was like a huge autograph session for all the major creators. (laughs)
Inoue: I was in Los Angeles around the time One Piece started and I was having Shonen Jump sent out to me.
When I read One Piece chapter one, I remember thinking, "Wow, this is the start of a really good comic." I thought it was a can't miss piece of work. I hadn't felt that way about a comic in a while so I made sure to follow it.
Oda: Around the time One Piece had just begun serialization, I saw a survey in a magazine asking famous people what comics interested them.
In that survey, you had chosen One Piece and commented, "The creator really believes in his work". I almost literally jumped for joy, I was so happy. I had a copy of that page pinned up at my work place for the longest time.
Inoue: I'm happy you were so happy! (laughs)
Oda: Can I talk to you about something that's kind of related to destiny?
Inoue: What is it? You're making me nervous.
Oda: Well, I was born in Kumamoto, and there used to be a shop called the Antique House, right?
Inoue: Yeah, the used clothing shop, right? That brings back memories.
Oda: I used to go there every so often with friends to buy clothes. Around the time I won Jump's Best New Artist award and had just gotten an editor, I was talking to one of the shop keepers and mentioned that I wanted to be a comic creator. He replied, "If you make it big, you'll be the second one born here." "Who's the first?" I asked. "Takehiko Nariai" ('Takehiko Inoue' is a pen name). He used to work here."
I couldn't believe it!
Inoue: Ha ha ha! I wonder who it was you talked to?"
Oda: He bragged that one of the Slam Dunk players was modeled after him (laughs). He also said that when the shop wasn't busy, you would be behind the cash register drawing pictures.
Inoue: Yeah, and not doing my job at all.
Oda: I was really surprised. I was like, Wow! Inoue sensei was here! It was just a shop I went to and I had never really thought much about it before. I felt that it must be destiny so I asked my editor to please let me be an assistant at your studio. He just casually told me "There aren't any openings." That really bummed me out.
Inoue: Really? Boy did we mess up. We should have brought you in as an assistant. (laughs)
Oda: If I had been accepted at your studio, it likely would have completely changed my destiny. In a lot of ways, that was probably a turning point for me. I'd always thought I'd like to talk to you about this personally.
Inoue: Thank you. I'll remember this.
First of all, just a quick note that there is an anonymous voice in this discussion every so often that asks questions etc., and is represented in the original text with a straight line where the name would be. This is quite common in Japanese magazines to denote the interviewer or moderator, and/or to tie the conversation together after the fact where there may have been edits in the text. In any case, questions and comments from an anonymous person will be submitted with six stars, like this ******
****** Mr. Oda, When did you start reading Vagabond?
Oda: I read them all at once when the tankobon come out. Of course, I've got every volume. Ever since the serial started, it's been the rage amongst us young creators. It's so engaging, has deep themes... More than anything, I can't get enough of Inoue sensei's art. It's like, just how far can this guy take his artistry? I've been pursuing that ever since Purple Kaede.*
Inoue: Well, I'm sure I've improved since way back then. However, it's weird, because when I was doing "Purple Kaede" I thought, "Hey, I'm a pretty good artist!" (laughs). Now, though, it's not something I would want to show people.
Oda: I saw your Last Manga Exhibition work and, well... I don't even understand it's meaning - if it's good or what it is, because it's just way over my head. How can art like this even be done? Like the huge mural of Musashi, it's so big but yet the proportions aren't off even a little.
Inoue: Actually, if you really look at it you'll see that the proportions are skewed. There are still pieces (in the exhibit) that I'm concerned about.
Oda: I don't think so at all! Every piece is fantastic and on a level that's beyond my comprehension.
Lately I've been really into Edo period Japanese art. People in Edo times didn't have the internet, comic stores, and I don't think they had as many forms of entertainment to occupy their time as we have now. On the flip side of that, I think they were able to dedicate more time and focus to their given craft than people nowadays are capable of. Because of that, they accomplished things on a level that average ability can't match. When I look at Edo period ink paintings, they are amazingly good. In just a casual painting, they can create unified lines that are full of life. Even art that's been drawn with extremely finely-honed skill, and with (outside) information shut off, probably can't reproduce that.
I think that your art has attained that kind of Edo period level. I wonder how a modern person could possibly draw like this. It boggles my mind.
Inoue: I'm humbled! (laughs)
Oda: And at the Last Manga Exhibition, there are 150 of those drawings, right? I can't even imagine it.
Inoue: If you're put under pressure from people, you can get a surprising amount of things done.
Oda: I've been under the gun with deadlines, and I've managed to survive a number of times but... I couldn't go this far.
Inoue: If it's your own art, you could do it.
Oda: No, no, I can't! I end up looking to attain a certain goal with each page.
Inoue: Ah, I see.
Oda: I'm not really finished, but I get to a certain point and I'm like "okay, I'm done!" I can't seem to get to a place where I really believe in my white space.
Inoue: For me, that white-space can be very important. It's difficult, isn't it?
Oda: I think that's artistic sense.
Inoue: It might be more my personality. Even with a goal in mind, getting to a certain place as planned doesn't interest me. While I'm drawing, if I start to think it's working out, I can just shut it down right there and finish. It's an irresponsible type of personality.
Oda: Do you have a complete mental image of what you want before you begin? There are some amazing people who I hear have it down to the last line and they just follow that image.
Inoue: I'm not sure. I guess I do have an image in my head, but it isn't absolutely clear.
Oda: For me it's so fuzzy you'd wonder if it's a complete image at all. But as I'm drawing I get a clearer fuzzy map-like image and I just try to follow it with my pen.
Inoue: I think that might be close to how it is for me too.
Oda: I haven't been able to get to the level of artists who can draw decisive lines right off the bat. I have an artist friend with a photographic memory, who never forgets a drawing after only seeing it once. So, once he's drawn a certain character, he can draw that same character again with no visual reference at all. That's an amazing ability. I forget characters I did a while back very quickly. If I want to bring them back, I have to dig up my old work and look at it again.
Inoue: I'm the same way. I look up my old characters all the time. I sometimes forget to draw things like inadvertent beards and other details.
Oda: Really? That's a relief. I feel like I can carry on (laughs).
Oda: From where do you get your ambition and inquisitiveness for your art?
Inoue: Well, it's simple. When you look at your previous art, it's embarrassing, right?
Oda: yeah, a little.
Inoue: I think it comes from the feeling that you can do better.
Oda: I always thought I was one of the more ambitious artists, but after seeing the Last Manga Exhibition, it made me feel woefully inadequate in that department.
Inoue: No, that's not the case at all. How many years has it been since One Piece started?
Oda: 12 years.
Inoue: That's amazing. Doing a serialization for that long in itself makes me feel the same way.
Oda: No way! I think that Slam Dunk is the optimum length for a long-form comic series. Initially, I had a 5 year plan for One Piece... It's taking me more than double that.
Inoue: Reading up to the latest volume 52, it doesn't seem like it's coming to an end anytime soon.
Oda: Yes... Thanks to (it's success)、my whole life's plan is in disarray (laughs).
Note: * Purple Kaede is the name of Inoue's debut comic in Weekly Shonen Jump back in 1988.
•••• From the Kojiro arch, Vagabond's art changed from pen to brush work. Mr. Oda, what do you think about that change?
Oda: It's really cool. Even with a career like Inoue-sensei's, he's still evolving. That kind of strength of conviction is awesome. Going to brush work is amazing.
Inoue: Actually, it's not something that should be done, is it? In a long, on-going work it hurts consistency.
Oda: You used brush work before that, though, right?
Inoue: I did in certain parts for effect. But the decision to start doing the whole thing that way was really just a feeling. When I began the Kojiro arch, I thought that to achieve the art I wanted I had to use a brush, not a pen. It would change the feel of my art but I wasn't particularly hung up on consistency throughout the work. I kind of had faith in my gut feeling at the time.
Oda: The title logo also changed.
Inoue: It was a time when I was asking myself what Vagabond really is. I needed some changes in order to continue doing it. The logo was one of those things that changed. The brush calligraphy of the logo up to then, however, was fantastic.
Oda: When a creator decides, "Time to change things up!", people are very receptive, aren't they?
For me, with One Piece vol.50, I'd decided it was the end of that part and I changed the way I put in the title logo. However, the reaction was surprisingly light (laughs). Readers - and I mean this in a good way - don't seem to very concerned about change. I think that's why creators can probably feel free to do things more the way that they want to.
•••• Mr. Inoue, how do you see Mr. Oda's art?
Inoue: It's full of an appeal that is the complete opposite of my work. It's full of life, and has the power to draw readers to specific points. Comparatively, I’m an artist that likes "subtraction". I try to fill things in as little as possible and leave something to the negative space. There is a lot of that in The Last Manga Exhibition. But, I really admire the way Mr. Oda fills his work in. I don't feel any sense that corners are being cut at all. It must be extremely difficult to shrink your work down to tankobon size, right?
Oda: Yes, it is (laughs). I don't know, but I just can't help but draw a lot. The weekly format is set at 19 pages, but from the creator perspective I want to move the story along faster. I end up jamming as much as I can in there. There is also wanting to finish faster so I can relax.
Inoue: Wanting to relax is something I can relate to.
Oda: I'm probably living in haste. My panels get smaller and smaller, and I don't draw unnecessary panels. My scenes are all jam packed. First of all, there are too many characters (laughs). The story is mainly about only 5 characters, but there are so many things I want to do that it ended up being the way it is now.
Inoue: Had you thought about the overall concept from the beginning?
Oda: Yes. The story's end hasn't changed once since the beginning. The problem is that I haven't been able to really digest all the things that are happening along the way toward the end.
How do you go about your storytelling?
Inoue: Hmmm. When I begin I don't think about the overall concept or the ending at all. It's really impressive how you can think about it and stay engaged from the beginning.
Oda: Really, it's only the goal that I've made a decision on.
Inoue: For me, I've only recently begun to see how Vagabond will turn out.
Oda: Is the Vagabond story following historical fact?
Inoue: Apparently, the facts about the duel between Miyamoto Musashi and Sasaki Kojiro on Ganryu island are really sketchy. However, the recorded history is all in Musashi's favor. All that is mentioned about Kojiro is that he was a master swordsman who fought Musashi. That's why I think there's a zero point something possibility that Kojiro actually could have been deaf.
Oda: Hmmm. Has the story moved away from the original ("Musashi" novel by Eiji Yoshikawa) and become something different?
Inoue: Not completely, but the original parts are taking over. I haven't decided on most of the overall story, so I only move on to the next part of the stroy when I've finish the one I'm doing. I think I just pretty much repeat that little process. The next thing I know I've gone of an a tangent, and sometimes I put myself in tough spots.
Oda: But going off on side roads like that can be surprisingly fun, can't it?
Inoue: Yes, for sure.
•••• What character(s) from Vagabond do you like?
Oda: I like all the old man characters in general. They're really endearing.
Inoue: Hahahaha!
Oda: Yagyu Sekishusai is especially good. Especially endearing is the scene where he says out of nowhere, "Can I brag about my grandson?" What's really appealing about Inoue-sensei's work is that even when characters are developing through hardships, the endearing qualities always remain. The small text dialogue just casually snuck in makes me laugh. The scene where Musashi says "Nyanko-sensei" (Kitten-sensei) really made me laugh (laughs).
That kind of portrayal is done in a really natural way, and makes the readers really accept the characters. Even when taking on difficult themes, I think that the skill with which Inoue-sensei makes his characters has the power to draw in a wide audience.
Inoue: I really like drawing the old man characters. Left unchecked, all the characters would be elderly men. (laughs)
Oda: It's fun to draw the wrinkles in the face, isn't it?
Inoue: Once I start drawing them, I draw them incessantly. I think we both like drawing very human characters, don't we?
Oda: I agree.
Inoue: I think with the elderly, the more wrinkles you draw the more human they become. The more you add, the more you add to their lifespan - that's the face of the elderly, isn't it? It makes it really worthwhile to draw.
•••• I think one thing that you two have in common is that you strive to draw your comics to convey something you really want to say.
Inoue: That’s probably true. One Piece in particular is resolute in wanting to say something. It’s almost overflowing with that.
Oda: I know my images are extremely busy, but I really feel compelled to draw everything that's in there. Even if it’s in the way or whatever, it’s like, “This is the sound I’m hearing now!”
Inoue: Sounds ring out and people’s voices are everywhere; There really are a lot of things going on simultaneously in your images, aren't there?
Oda: That’s the way it always turns out.
Inoue: In One Piece, I get a strong impression of your feelings that there are all these sounds and people and feelings in the world. That axis in your work is strong and doesn't waiver, and I think that may be how you can sustain 12 long years of doing a serial.
Oda: Thank you very much. The thing I want to do most in my comics is really not stories, it’s character models. I think like, “Is this style of person possible?” The time I spend doing all kinds of different designs is fun.
Inoue: That's the complete opposite of me.
Oda: Things like how muscular the body should be to go with a certain facial structure is something that, in the end, I pay no attention to, though (laughs). The times where I have created a certain character silhouette that no one’s ever seen before – those moments make me the happiest. And, once I’ve created it, I want to use it as quickly as possible. I create episodes for just that reason... I do that over and over, so the story gets longer and longer.
Inoue: So that's how you've gotten all the way to 52 volumes?
Oda: Yeah (laughs). What are the fun moments for you?
Inoue: The fun moments are diminishing for me. The time I spend drawing wild hair is kind of fun, though. When I’m making exceptional progress, all the time I spend drawing is enjoyable, but recently I don’t really get that feeling very often. I feel a little as though I may have come to a point where I'm facing an impending crisis.
Oda: Impending crisis?
Inoue: Yeah. Comic creation is supposed to be something you do because you love it, right? Nothing gets you pumped up more than drawing comics, so you can keep going no matter how tough things get.
Oda: Yeah.
Inoue: However I’ve come to a point where, in the balance between the tough times and the fun times, if the pleasure in the work becomes diminished any further, I may not be able to go on. Right now I’m trying to somehow find my way through, because I know I have to get past this.
Oda: For me, I don’t think I really have any feeling of crisis with my work.
Inoue: That’s very apparent just from reading One Piece. I’m sure you have your own things to deal with, but I think it’s a long way from this kind of sense of crisis. For me, I think that I’m really being pulled in by Vagabond. It’s like the very nature of the work is affecting me. I spend so awfully much time thinking about things that have no answer. I think maybe this feeling would change if I drew some happier, simpler form of entertainment.
Oda: Do you feel any change of pace when you go back and forth between Vagabond and Real?
Inoue: Yes, I do. There’s a part of Real that rescues me. I can’t say it’s fun, but compared to Vagabond it is a lot easier to work on. I can get ideas just walking down the street.
Oda: You don't normally meet sword masters in the streets.
Inoue: Exactly (laughs)
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Oda: It might a little late to be asking this, but what made you what to do the story of Musashi?
Inoue: In the beginning it wasn't really a big deal. Someone recommended Eiji Yoshikawa’s “Musashi” novel to me, and it was a really good read. It was about a year after Slam Dunk had ended when I wasn't doing a serial. I wanted to get to work on something and thought I'd like to try making this into a comic. So, I made a proposal, everything went smoothly, and I got the okay to do it. At first I was completely clueless and didn't know what could be so hard about doing something like this. I just started doing it with almost no idea about the knowledge, energy and technique I would need to do an historical work. It was a real struggle.
Oda: If you don’t seriously research historical material and stuff you can’t do it, can you?
Inoue: If I couldn't have done that, I would have given up on it. We even floated the idea of having a specialist to check historical accuracy, but in the end decided that I would do what was within my own scope and create my own version of Musashi.
Oda: Are the characters the same ones as the original novel?
Inoue: The characters are pretty much the same ones, but their personalities are very different.
Oda: The cutting down of the 70 Yoshioka was amazing.
Inoue: In the original novel, Musashi beats the top guy, and then ends up cutting down a handful of others who attack as he makes his escape. But it seemed at that point that it wouldn't have amounted to much of a challenge (laughs). So I thought, "What if he cuts down all of them - 70 of them?" From volume 25 to 27 during the Yoshioka fight, Musashi really does cut down 70 people.
Oda: Really....!?
Inoue: In the middle of it, I kind of wondered why I was doing it. But I fought through and drew the entire thing.
Oda: Without the bold lines of your art, it wouldn't have worked. It just wouldn't have held together.
Inoue: When I decided to draw the cutting down of 70 people, I absolutely had to put the necessary energy into the art. While I was working on that, you could say I was fine tuning along the way, but it's a scene in which the art progressed very rapidly.
Oda: Is it sometimes tough for you to draw scenes of people being cut down?
Inoue: Yes, it is. To draw a scene in which that many people are cut dead... It really made me no longer believe in simple victory or defeat. It's a battle, so of course there is a winner and loser. However, I ended up doubting the value in victory. If you doubt what you're doing, you can't draw the comics, can you? I thought, is winning truly victory? Is it a good thing? It was tough because I was disturbed by that feeling of contradiction. However, I made a point of drawing a scene in which 70 people are cut down precisely to experience that feeling.
Oda: The art oozes with the suffering you felt while drawing it. You can even see the creators face in their art. Until I met you today, I thought you would probably be a person similar to Musashi.
Inoue: I'm completely different, aren't I? (laughs). I lot of people have this image of me as some ascetic monk, but that's not the case at all.
Oda: Before we met for today’s talk, I went and asked a creator I know who has met you, "So how scary is he?"
Inoue: Hahahaha!! Really? Did they say I was scary?
Oda: Nope, not at all. But for my generation of comic creators, we're intimidated just by hearing the name Takehiko Inoue (laughs). I thought that if you were a scary person like Musashi, I might not even be able to speak with you... Now that I've met you, I'm relieved that you're such a nice person.
Inoue: When I was reading One Piece, I wondered what the origin of the concept was.
Oda: Concept?
Inoue: Yeah. A lively pirate adventure that is full of sound everywhere and inhabited by all kinds of original characters. It's not confined by any restraints, it's free and spontaneous. It's a style that hasn't really been seen before in Japanese comics. Where did this spawn from?
Oda: Hmmm. It was always strange to me that there weren't any boys comics about pirates. That old cartoon Vicky the Viking is the closest thing I know of. Boys, however old they get, want to go out to sea and search for treasure. Just ships at sea gets the blood pumping, doesn't it? But for some reason no one drew pirate comics!
Inoue: I see.
Oda: I wanted to read pirate comics since I was a kid, so if I was going to draw comics I decided I was going to use a pirate motif. It had nothing to do with thinking about whether it would sell or not. I just simply drew comics that I wanted to read. Plus, I though it was weird that Shonen Jump didn't have a pirate comic. After all, their logo is a pirate!
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Weekly Shonen Jump Logo
Weekly Shonen Jump website mascot
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Inoue: So it is! (laughs). Now it's like you've created Shonen Jump's signature property. Outstanding!
Oda: No way. Compared to you I've still got a long way to go.
Inoue: No no, you're being overly modest (laughs).
•••• Is what the both of you want to do, in essence, entertainment?
Oda: In my case, yes. If I can't make it fun for the readers, there's no point in making comics. It wouldn't be fun for me either. I don't know how it is for other creators, but creating enjoyment for the readers and for myself is what it's all about. That what I'm doing is entertainment has never been a question for me. I mean, how could I be any happier than this? I'm drawing comics that I love, and making a lot of people happy. Does it get any better than that?
Inoue: That's fantastic.
Oda: I...is that not the case?
Inoue: No no, I'm not picking on you (laughs). It's exactly like you said. The best comics are definitely the ones that are fun for both the reader and the creator.
Oda: Comics are no good if they aren't entertainment, right? It's all well and good to have something to say, to have a message, but in the end if it isn't enjoyable the message won't get through anyway. Take Vagabond - I think that especially latter parts are entertainment at the highest level.
Inoue: That's really nice to hear. If I had no intention of publishing, and I knew no one would read, I probably wouldn't draw comics at all.
Oda: I agree.
Inoue: What’s amazing about Mr. Oda’s One Piece is that Luffy’s eyes are dots. That’s really something. Mr. Oda says, “Something that’s really good, is still good without adding this or that.” I think that's an expression that is really representative of him. The unwavering belief in his work is consolidated in the way he draws those black eyes. I bet that his editor and the staff around him said he should make the pupils brighter, or he should draw bolder lines and all kinds of things like that, but he didn’t budge an inch.
Oda: Yes, in the beginning I was told a lot of things.
Inoue: And you didn't waiver, you stuck with the dots, and you produced great results. That's brilliant. Your original inspiration of wanting to draw exciting pirate comics is what put the life into Luffy’s eyes. When I read chapter one I thought, "This guy knows what he's doing!"
Oda: Wow, you're actually making me blush (laughs).
•••• Mr. Oda, if you ever have the chance to do an art exhibition of your own, what type of exhibition would you like to do?
Inoue: You don’t need a chance or anything, all you have to do is say you want to do it, and everyone around you would probably jump at it.
Oda: To tell you the truth, I do have some interest in that. When One Piece is finished, there are a lot of things I’d like to try doing, including an exhibition. While I’m working on the serial, though, I really don’t have to capacity to work on other things. I think it’s truly amazing that you could do an art exhibition like this in the middle of doing Vagabond!
Inoue: Well, I have put Vagabond on hiatus, though (laughs).
Oda: But just being able to do something else while dedicated to another thing… On top of that, being able to draw the characters from your serial in a setting like that… I can’t keep up with that kind of strength. In any case, my One Piece serial is everything to me. When it’s done, I think I can begin my real life (laughs).
Inoue: What? You mean it isn’t now?
Oda: Right now I live for my readers.
Inoue: That’s fantastic!
•••• Even in saying that, if doing an exhibition became a reality for you, what kind of exhibit would you like to do?
Oda: It would be a waste to have something that is just looking at pictures. I would like to do something on more the scope of arts and crafts and building things. I like to use my hands to build and put things together. I think I’d really like to do something with 3D models.
Have you thought about any new types of exhibits ?
Inoue: Hmm, well… I don’t feel that The Last Manga Exhibition represents my be all and end all. Thematically, though, I‘ve gone as far as I can go so I don’t think I could do another exhibit like this one. If I do another one, it would have to be something completely different. I think that’s probably a long way off, though. Right now my stance is that the Last Manga Exhibition is the last. I’ve said this a number of times to a number of people, but I think this exhibit has taken its best possible form right now. I really hope you can come to Kumamoto to see it.
Oda: Only Kumamoto? You should take this overseas too! Like to New York! I bet people would love it. Mr. Yoshitaka Amano did one in New York and it was a huge success. People over there love Samurai and stuff, right?
Inoue: Yeah, but there is dialogue too. I don’t know if I can convey that properly. You need to know something about reading and understanding manga too.
Oda: Take a chance and don’t explain anything at all, and just leave the dialogue in Japanese. Let them feel it like readers here do.
Inoue: I see. Maybe just having a translation beside… That’s something to think about.
Oda: Please bring your work to the world! Vagabond is the pride of Japan.
Inoue: No, when people say, “That would be One Piece!” there’s no comparison (laughs). I’m really glad I had the chance to talk with you today. Please come to the Kumamoto Last Manga Exhibition.
Oda: I’ll pay a visit to my home town and check it out!!
Oda: Well, actually a long time ago I got an autograph from you.
Inoue: Really!? When?
Oda: It was at the Shueisha Tezuka/Akazuka awards party. I had just debuted then and I was extremely nervous. You also drew me a regent-style illustration of Hanamichi Sakuragi. I've still got it.
Inoue: Is that right? I'm sorry, I don't remember that. (laughs)
Oda: No problem. That party was like a huge autograph session for all the major creators. (laughs)
Inoue: I was in Los Angeles around the time One Piece started and I was having Shonen Jump sent out to me.
When I read One Piece chapter one, I remember thinking, "Wow, this is the start of a really good comic." I thought it was a can't miss piece of work. I hadn't felt that way about a comic in a while so I made sure to follow it.
Oda: Around the time One Piece had just begun serialization, I saw a survey in a magazine asking famous people what comics interested them.
In that survey, you had chosen One Piece and commented, "The creator really believes in his work". I almost literally jumped for joy, I was so happy. I had a copy of that page pinned up at my work place for the longest time.
Inoue: I'm happy you were so happy! (laughs)
Oda: Can I talk to you about something that's kind of related to destiny?
Inoue: What is it? You're making me nervous.
Oda: Well, I was born in Kumamoto, and there used to be a shop called the Antique House, right?
Inoue: Yeah, the used clothing shop, right? That brings back memories.
Oda: I used to go there every so often with friends to buy clothes. Around the time I won Jump's Best New Artist award and had just gotten an editor, I was talking to one of the shop keepers and mentioned that I wanted to be a comic creator. He replied, "If you make it big, you'll be the second one born here." "Who's the first?" I asked. "Takehiko Nariai" ('Takehiko Inoue' is a pen name). He used to work here."
I couldn't believe it!
Inoue: Ha ha ha! I wonder who it was you talked to?"
Oda: He bragged that one of the Slam Dunk players was modeled after him (laughs). He also said that when the shop wasn't busy, you would be behind the cash register drawing pictures.
Inoue: Yeah, and not doing my job at all.
Oda: I was really surprised. I was like, Wow! Inoue sensei was here! It was just a shop I went to and I had never really thought much about it before. I felt that it must be destiny so I asked my editor to please let me be an assistant at your studio. He just casually told me "There aren't any openings." That really bummed me out.
Inoue: Really? Boy did we mess up. We should have brought you in as an assistant. (laughs)
Oda: If I had been accepted at your studio, it likely would have completely changed my destiny. In a lot of ways, that was probably a turning point for me. I'd always thought I'd like to talk to you about this personally.
Inoue: Thank you. I'll remember this.
First of all, just a quick note that there is an anonymous voice in this discussion every so often that asks questions etc., and is represented in the original text with a straight line where the name would be. This is quite common in Japanese magazines to denote the interviewer or moderator, and/or to tie the conversation together after the fact where there may have been edits in the text. In any case, questions and comments from an anonymous person will be submitted with six stars, like this ******
****** Mr. Oda, When did you start reading Vagabond?
Oda: I read them all at once when the tankobon come out. Of course, I've got every volume. Ever since the serial started, it's been the rage amongst us young creators. It's so engaging, has deep themes... More than anything, I can't get enough of Inoue sensei's art. It's like, just how far can this guy take his artistry? I've been pursuing that ever since Purple Kaede.*
Inoue: Well, I'm sure I've improved since way back then. However, it's weird, because when I was doing "Purple Kaede" I thought, "Hey, I'm a pretty good artist!" (laughs). Now, though, it's not something I would want to show people.
Oda: I saw your Last Manga Exhibition work and, well... I don't even understand it's meaning - if it's good or what it is, because it's just way over my head. How can art like this even be done? Like the huge mural of Musashi, it's so big but yet the proportions aren't off even a little.
Inoue: Actually, if you really look at it you'll see that the proportions are skewed. There are still pieces (in the exhibit) that I'm concerned about.
Oda: I don't think so at all! Every piece is fantastic and on a level that's beyond my comprehension.
Lately I've been really into Edo period Japanese art. People in Edo times didn't have the internet, comic stores, and I don't think they had as many forms of entertainment to occupy their time as we have now. On the flip side of that, I think they were able to dedicate more time and focus to their given craft than people nowadays are capable of. Because of that, they accomplished things on a level that average ability can't match. When I look at Edo period ink paintings, they are amazingly good. In just a casual painting, they can create unified lines that are full of life. Even art that's been drawn with extremely finely-honed skill, and with (outside) information shut off, probably can't reproduce that.
I think that your art has attained that kind of Edo period level. I wonder how a modern person could possibly draw like this. It boggles my mind.
Inoue: I'm humbled! (laughs)
Oda: And at the Last Manga Exhibition, there are 150 of those drawings, right? I can't even imagine it.
Inoue: If you're put under pressure from people, you can get a surprising amount of things done.
Oda: I've been under the gun with deadlines, and I've managed to survive a number of times but... I couldn't go this far.
Inoue: If it's your own art, you could do it.
Oda: No, no, I can't! I end up looking to attain a certain goal with each page.
Inoue: Ah, I see.
Oda: I'm not really finished, but I get to a certain point and I'm like "okay, I'm done!" I can't seem to get to a place where I really believe in my white space.
Inoue: For me, that white-space can be very important. It's difficult, isn't it?
Oda: I think that's artistic sense.
Inoue: It might be more my personality. Even with a goal in mind, getting to a certain place as planned doesn't interest me. While I'm drawing, if I start to think it's working out, I can just shut it down right there and finish. It's an irresponsible type of personality.
Oda: Do you have a complete mental image of what you want before you begin? There are some amazing people who I hear have it down to the last line and they just follow that image.
Inoue: I'm not sure. I guess I do have an image in my head, but it isn't absolutely clear.
Oda: For me it's so fuzzy you'd wonder if it's a complete image at all. But as I'm drawing I get a clearer fuzzy map-like image and I just try to follow it with my pen.
Inoue: I think that might be close to how it is for me too.
Oda: I haven't been able to get to the level of artists who can draw decisive lines right off the bat. I have an artist friend with a photographic memory, who never forgets a drawing after only seeing it once. So, once he's drawn a certain character, he can draw that same character again with no visual reference at all. That's an amazing ability. I forget characters I did a while back very quickly. If I want to bring them back, I have to dig up my old work and look at it again.
Inoue: I'm the same way. I look up my old characters all the time. I sometimes forget to draw things like inadvertent beards and other details.
Oda: Really? That's a relief. I feel like I can carry on (laughs).
Oda: From where do you get your ambition and inquisitiveness for your art?
Inoue: Well, it's simple. When you look at your previous art, it's embarrassing, right?
Oda: yeah, a little.
Inoue: I think it comes from the feeling that you can do better.
Oda: I always thought I was one of the more ambitious artists, but after seeing the Last Manga Exhibition, it made me feel woefully inadequate in that department.
Inoue: No, that's not the case at all. How many years has it been since One Piece started?
Oda: 12 years.
Inoue: That's amazing. Doing a serialization for that long in itself makes me feel the same way.
Oda: No way! I think that Slam Dunk is the optimum length for a long-form comic series. Initially, I had a 5 year plan for One Piece... It's taking me more than double that.
Inoue: Reading up to the latest volume 52, it doesn't seem like it's coming to an end anytime soon.
Oda: Yes... Thanks to (it's success)、my whole life's plan is in disarray (laughs).
Note: * Purple Kaede is the name of Inoue's debut comic in Weekly Shonen Jump back in 1988.
•••• From the Kojiro arch, Vagabond's art changed from pen to brush work. Mr. Oda, what do you think about that change?
Oda: It's really cool. Even with a career like Inoue-sensei's, he's still evolving. That kind of strength of conviction is awesome. Going to brush work is amazing.
Inoue: Actually, it's not something that should be done, is it? In a long, on-going work it hurts consistency.
Oda: You used brush work before that, though, right?
Inoue: I did in certain parts for effect. But the decision to start doing the whole thing that way was really just a feeling. When I began the Kojiro arch, I thought that to achieve the art I wanted I had to use a brush, not a pen. It would change the feel of my art but I wasn't particularly hung up on consistency throughout the work. I kind of had faith in my gut feeling at the time.
Oda: The title logo also changed.
Inoue: It was a time when I was asking myself what Vagabond really is. I needed some changes in order to continue doing it. The logo was one of those things that changed. The brush calligraphy of the logo up to then, however, was fantastic.
Oda: When a creator decides, "Time to change things up!", people are very receptive, aren't they?
For me, with One Piece vol.50, I'd decided it was the end of that part and I changed the way I put in the title logo. However, the reaction was surprisingly light (laughs). Readers - and I mean this in a good way - don't seem to very concerned about change. I think that's why creators can probably feel free to do things more the way that they want to.
•••• Mr. Inoue, how do you see Mr. Oda's art?
Inoue: It's full of an appeal that is the complete opposite of my work. It's full of life, and has the power to draw readers to specific points. Comparatively, I’m an artist that likes "subtraction". I try to fill things in as little as possible and leave something to the negative space. There is a lot of that in The Last Manga Exhibition. But, I really admire the way Mr. Oda fills his work in. I don't feel any sense that corners are being cut at all. It must be extremely difficult to shrink your work down to tankobon size, right?
Oda: Yes, it is (laughs). I don't know, but I just can't help but draw a lot. The weekly format is set at 19 pages, but from the creator perspective I want to move the story along faster. I end up jamming as much as I can in there. There is also wanting to finish faster so I can relax.
Inoue: Wanting to relax is something I can relate to.
Oda: I'm probably living in haste. My panels get smaller and smaller, and I don't draw unnecessary panels. My scenes are all jam packed. First of all, there are too many characters (laughs). The story is mainly about only 5 characters, but there are so many things I want to do that it ended up being the way it is now.
Inoue: Had you thought about the overall concept from the beginning?
Oda: Yes. The story's end hasn't changed once since the beginning. The problem is that I haven't been able to really digest all the things that are happening along the way toward the end.
How do you go about your storytelling?
Inoue: Hmmm. When I begin I don't think about the overall concept or the ending at all. It's really impressive how you can think about it and stay engaged from the beginning.
Oda: Really, it's only the goal that I've made a decision on.
Inoue: For me, I've only recently begun to see how Vagabond will turn out.
Oda: Is the Vagabond story following historical fact?
Inoue: Apparently, the facts about the duel between Miyamoto Musashi and Sasaki Kojiro on Ganryu island are really sketchy. However, the recorded history is all in Musashi's favor. All that is mentioned about Kojiro is that he was a master swordsman who fought Musashi. That's why I think there's a zero point something possibility that Kojiro actually could have been deaf.
Oda: Hmmm. Has the story moved away from the original ("Musashi" novel by Eiji Yoshikawa) and become something different?
Inoue: Not completely, but the original parts are taking over. I haven't decided on most of the overall story, so I only move on to the next part of the stroy when I've finish the one I'm doing. I think I just pretty much repeat that little process. The next thing I know I've gone of an a tangent, and sometimes I put myself in tough spots.
Oda: But going off on side roads like that can be surprisingly fun, can't it?
Inoue: Yes, for sure.
•••• What character(s) from Vagabond do you like?
Oda: I like all the old man characters in general. They're really endearing.
Inoue: Hahahaha!
Oda: Yagyu Sekishusai is especially good. Especially endearing is the scene where he says out of nowhere, "Can I brag about my grandson?" What's really appealing about Inoue-sensei's work is that even when characters are developing through hardships, the endearing qualities always remain. The small text dialogue just casually snuck in makes me laugh. The scene where Musashi says "Nyanko-sensei" (Kitten-sensei) really made me laugh (laughs).
That kind of portrayal is done in a really natural way, and makes the readers really accept the characters. Even when taking on difficult themes, I think that the skill with which Inoue-sensei makes his characters has the power to draw in a wide audience.
Inoue: I really like drawing the old man characters. Left unchecked, all the characters would be elderly men. (laughs)
Oda: It's fun to draw the wrinkles in the face, isn't it?
Inoue: Once I start drawing them, I draw them incessantly. I think we both like drawing very human characters, don't we?
Oda: I agree.
Inoue: I think with the elderly, the more wrinkles you draw the more human they become. The more you add, the more you add to their lifespan - that's the face of the elderly, isn't it? It makes it really worthwhile to draw.
•••• I think one thing that you two have in common is that you strive to draw your comics to convey something you really want to say.
Inoue: That’s probably true. One Piece in particular is resolute in wanting to say something. It’s almost overflowing with that.
Oda: I know my images are extremely busy, but I really feel compelled to draw everything that's in there. Even if it’s in the way or whatever, it’s like, “This is the sound I’m hearing now!”
Inoue: Sounds ring out and people’s voices are everywhere; There really are a lot of things going on simultaneously in your images, aren't there?
Oda: That’s the way it always turns out.
Inoue: In One Piece, I get a strong impression of your feelings that there are all these sounds and people and feelings in the world. That axis in your work is strong and doesn't waiver, and I think that may be how you can sustain 12 long years of doing a serial.
Oda: Thank you very much. The thing I want to do most in my comics is really not stories, it’s character models. I think like, “Is this style of person possible?” The time I spend doing all kinds of different designs is fun.
Inoue: That's the complete opposite of me.
Oda: Things like how muscular the body should be to go with a certain facial structure is something that, in the end, I pay no attention to, though (laughs). The times where I have created a certain character silhouette that no one’s ever seen before – those moments make me the happiest. And, once I’ve created it, I want to use it as quickly as possible. I create episodes for just that reason... I do that over and over, so the story gets longer and longer.
Inoue: So that's how you've gotten all the way to 52 volumes?
Oda: Yeah (laughs). What are the fun moments for you?
Inoue: The fun moments are diminishing for me. The time I spend drawing wild hair is kind of fun, though. When I’m making exceptional progress, all the time I spend drawing is enjoyable, but recently I don’t really get that feeling very often. I feel a little as though I may have come to a point where I'm facing an impending crisis.
Oda: Impending crisis?
Inoue: Yeah. Comic creation is supposed to be something you do because you love it, right? Nothing gets you pumped up more than drawing comics, so you can keep going no matter how tough things get.
Oda: Yeah.
Inoue: However I’ve come to a point where, in the balance between the tough times and the fun times, if the pleasure in the work becomes diminished any further, I may not be able to go on. Right now I’m trying to somehow find my way through, because I know I have to get past this.
Oda: For me, I don’t think I really have any feeling of crisis with my work.
Inoue: That’s very apparent just from reading One Piece. I’m sure you have your own things to deal with, but I think it’s a long way from this kind of sense of crisis. For me, I think that I’m really being pulled in by Vagabond. It’s like the very nature of the work is affecting me. I spend so awfully much time thinking about things that have no answer. I think maybe this feeling would change if I drew some happier, simpler form of entertainment.
Oda: Do you feel any change of pace when you go back and forth between Vagabond and Real?
Inoue: Yes, I do. There’s a part of Real that rescues me. I can’t say it’s fun, but compared to Vagabond it is a lot easier to work on. I can get ideas just walking down the street.
Oda: You don't normally meet sword masters in the streets.
Inoue: Exactly (laughs)
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Oda: It might a little late to be asking this, but what made you what to do the story of Musashi?
Inoue: In the beginning it wasn't really a big deal. Someone recommended Eiji Yoshikawa’s “Musashi” novel to me, and it was a really good read. It was about a year after Slam Dunk had ended when I wasn't doing a serial. I wanted to get to work on something and thought I'd like to try making this into a comic. So, I made a proposal, everything went smoothly, and I got the okay to do it. At first I was completely clueless and didn't know what could be so hard about doing something like this. I just started doing it with almost no idea about the knowledge, energy and technique I would need to do an historical work. It was a real struggle.
Oda: If you don’t seriously research historical material and stuff you can’t do it, can you?
Inoue: If I couldn't have done that, I would have given up on it. We even floated the idea of having a specialist to check historical accuracy, but in the end decided that I would do what was within my own scope and create my own version of Musashi.
Oda: Are the characters the same ones as the original novel?
Inoue: The characters are pretty much the same ones, but their personalities are very different.
Oda: The cutting down of the 70 Yoshioka was amazing.
Inoue: In the original novel, Musashi beats the top guy, and then ends up cutting down a handful of others who attack as he makes his escape. But it seemed at that point that it wouldn't have amounted to much of a challenge (laughs). So I thought, "What if he cuts down all of them - 70 of them?" From volume 25 to 27 during the Yoshioka fight, Musashi really does cut down 70 people.
Oda: Really....!?
Inoue: In the middle of it, I kind of wondered why I was doing it. But I fought through and drew the entire thing.
Oda: Without the bold lines of your art, it wouldn't have worked. It just wouldn't have held together.
Inoue: When I decided to draw the cutting down of 70 people, I absolutely had to put the necessary energy into the art. While I was working on that, you could say I was fine tuning along the way, but it's a scene in which the art progressed very rapidly.
Oda: Is it sometimes tough for you to draw scenes of people being cut down?
Inoue: Yes, it is. To draw a scene in which that many people are cut dead... It really made me no longer believe in simple victory or defeat. It's a battle, so of course there is a winner and loser. However, I ended up doubting the value in victory. If you doubt what you're doing, you can't draw the comics, can you? I thought, is winning truly victory? Is it a good thing? It was tough because I was disturbed by that feeling of contradiction. However, I made a point of drawing a scene in which 70 people are cut down precisely to experience that feeling.
Oda: The art oozes with the suffering you felt while drawing it. You can even see the creators face in their art. Until I met you today, I thought you would probably be a person similar to Musashi.
Inoue: I'm completely different, aren't I? (laughs). I lot of people have this image of me as some ascetic monk, but that's not the case at all.
Oda: Before we met for today’s talk, I went and asked a creator I know who has met you, "So how scary is he?"
Inoue: Hahahaha!! Really? Did they say I was scary?
Oda: Nope, not at all. But for my generation of comic creators, we're intimidated just by hearing the name Takehiko Inoue (laughs). I thought that if you were a scary person like Musashi, I might not even be able to speak with you... Now that I've met you, I'm relieved that you're such a nice person.
Inoue: When I was reading One Piece, I wondered what the origin of the concept was.
Oda: Concept?
Inoue: Yeah. A lively pirate adventure that is full of sound everywhere and inhabited by all kinds of original characters. It's not confined by any restraints, it's free and spontaneous. It's a style that hasn't really been seen before in Japanese comics. Where did this spawn from?
Oda: Hmmm. It was always strange to me that there weren't any boys comics about pirates. That old cartoon Vicky the Viking is the closest thing I know of. Boys, however old they get, want to go out to sea and search for treasure. Just ships at sea gets the blood pumping, doesn't it? But for some reason no one drew pirate comics!
Inoue: I see.
Oda: I wanted to read pirate comics since I was a kid, so if I was going to draw comics I decided I was going to use a pirate motif. It had nothing to do with thinking about whether it would sell or not. I just simply drew comics that I wanted to read. Plus, I though it was weird that Shonen Jump didn't have a pirate comic. After all, their logo is a pirate!
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Weekly Shonen Jump Logo
Weekly Shonen Jump website mascot
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Inoue: So it is! (laughs). Now it's like you've created Shonen Jump's signature property. Outstanding!
Oda: No way. Compared to you I've still got a long way to go.
Inoue: No no, you're being overly modest (laughs).
•••• Is what the both of you want to do, in essence, entertainment?
Oda: In my case, yes. If I can't make it fun for the readers, there's no point in making comics. It wouldn't be fun for me either. I don't know how it is for other creators, but creating enjoyment for the readers and for myself is what it's all about. That what I'm doing is entertainment has never been a question for me. I mean, how could I be any happier than this? I'm drawing comics that I love, and making a lot of people happy. Does it get any better than that?
Inoue: That's fantastic.
Oda: I...is that not the case?
Inoue: No no, I'm not picking on you (laughs). It's exactly like you said. The best comics are definitely the ones that are fun for both the reader and the creator.
Oda: Comics are no good if they aren't entertainment, right? It's all well and good to have something to say, to have a message, but in the end if it isn't enjoyable the message won't get through anyway. Take Vagabond - I think that especially latter parts are entertainment at the highest level.
Inoue: That's really nice to hear. If I had no intention of publishing, and I knew no one would read, I probably wouldn't draw comics at all.
Oda: I agree.
Inoue: What’s amazing about Mr. Oda’s One Piece is that Luffy’s eyes are dots. That’s really something. Mr. Oda says, “Something that’s really good, is still good without adding this or that.” I think that's an expression that is really representative of him. The unwavering belief in his work is consolidated in the way he draws those black eyes. I bet that his editor and the staff around him said he should make the pupils brighter, or he should draw bolder lines and all kinds of things like that, but he didn’t budge an inch.
Oda: Yes, in the beginning I was told a lot of things.
Inoue: And you didn't waiver, you stuck with the dots, and you produced great results. That's brilliant. Your original inspiration of wanting to draw exciting pirate comics is what put the life into Luffy’s eyes. When I read chapter one I thought, "This guy knows what he's doing!"
Oda: Wow, you're actually making me blush (laughs).
•••• Mr. Oda, if you ever have the chance to do an art exhibition of your own, what type of exhibition would you like to do?
Inoue: You don’t need a chance or anything, all you have to do is say you want to do it, and everyone around you would probably jump at it.
Oda: To tell you the truth, I do have some interest in that. When One Piece is finished, there are a lot of things I’d like to try doing, including an exhibition. While I’m working on the serial, though, I really don’t have to capacity to work on other things. I think it’s truly amazing that you could do an art exhibition like this in the middle of doing Vagabond!
Inoue: Well, I have put Vagabond on hiatus, though (laughs).
Oda: But just being able to do something else while dedicated to another thing… On top of that, being able to draw the characters from your serial in a setting like that… I can’t keep up with that kind of strength. In any case, my One Piece serial is everything to me. When it’s done, I think I can begin my real life (laughs).
Inoue: What? You mean it isn’t now?
Oda: Right now I live for my readers.
Inoue: That’s fantastic!
•••• Even in saying that, if doing an exhibition became a reality for you, what kind of exhibit would you like to do?
Oda: It would be a waste to have something that is just looking at pictures. I would like to do something on more the scope of arts and crafts and building things. I like to use my hands to build and put things together. I think I’d really like to do something with 3D models.
Have you thought about any new types of exhibits ?
Inoue: Hmm, well… I don’t feel that The Last Manga Exhibition represents my be all and end all. Thematically, though, I‘ve gone as far as I can go so I don’t think I could do another exhibit like this one. If I do another one, it would have to be something completely different. I think that’s probably a long way off, though. Right now my stance is that the Last Manga Exhibition is the last. I’ve said this a number of times to a number of people, but I think this exhibit has taken its best possible form right now. I really hope you can come to Kumamoto to see it.
Oda: Only Kumamoto? You should take this overseas too! Like to New York! I bet people would love it. Mr. Yoshitaka Amano did one in New York and it was a huge success. People over there love Samurai and stuff, right?
Inoue: Yeah, but there is dialogue too. I don’t know if I can convey that properly. You need to know something about reading and understanding manga too.
Oda: Take a chance and don’t explain anything at all, and just leave the dialogue in Japanese. Let them feel it like readers here do.
Inoue: I see. Maybe just having a translation beside… That’s something to think about.
Oda: Please bring your work to the world! Vagabond is the pride of Japan.
Inoue: No, when people say, “That would be One Piece!” there’s no comparison (laughs). I’m really glad I had the chance to talk with you today. Please come to the Kumamoto Last Manga Exhibition.
Oda: I’ll pay a visit to my home town and check it out!!
https://web.archive.org/web/2010122.../takehiko-inoue-aamp-eiichiro-oda-part-1-of-6
https://web.archive.org/web/2011082.../takehiko-inoue-aamp-eiichiro-oda-part-2-of-6
https://web.archive.org/web/2011082.../takehiko-inoue-aamp-eiichiro-oda-part-3-of-6
https://web.archive.org/web/2011070.../takehiko-inoue-aamp-eiichiro-oda-part-4-of-6
https://web.archive.org/web/2010111.../takehiko-inoue-aamp-eiichiro-oda-part-5-of-6
https://web.archive.org/web/2011070.../takehiko-inoue-aamp-eiichiro-oda-part-6-of-6
https://web.archive.org/web/2011082.../takehiko-inoue-aamp-eiichiro-oda-part-2-of-6
https://web.archive.org/web/2011082.../takehiko-inoue-aamp-eiichiro-oda-part-3-of-6
https://web.archive.org/web/2011070.../takehiko-inoue-aamp-eiichiro-oda-part-4-of-6
https://web.archive.org/web/2010111.../takehiko-inoue-aamp-eiichiro-oda-part-5-of-6
https://web.archive.org/web/2011070.../takehiko-inoue-aamp-eiichiro-oda-part-6-of-6
