#1
Im gonna keep this simple....who asks their future opponent/Rival/end goal to train them. Its like Luffy asking Blackbeard or Akainu to train him so he can beat them. Or Sanji asking the All Blue for a compass.

Like Zoro asking his dream opponent to train him takes away from the excitement of being able to do it yourself. Its honestly embrassing.

Take Luffy for example. When Usopp asked for the directions to the OP from a person in Roger's crew...this was Luffy's reaction.




Luffy got angry as he was afraid his adventure would be spoiled if he got too much information. Luffy values the adventure and journey that is takes for his goal....so you'd expect Zoro to also value and respect his journey.

But instead Zoro begs the man he wants to defeat to make him stronger. Basically admitting he wont ever get to his lvl without Mihawk himself putting him there. And whether Zoro could get to that lvl without Mihawk is unknown....

And now before yall attack me yes...I get that he begged to get stronger, so he can support Luffy. But did he really need to sacrifice the merits of his own dream and bear the fact that he "cheated" so he could support Luffy on his own dream.

Even Mihawk found it absurd


And this isnt an attack on Zoro's choice...its more of a critisicm on Oda's writing. It was absoultely unnesscary to make Zoro train under the man he wants to defeat. Mihawk got to the position with his own strength and a few pulled strings of the WG. Zoro shouldve done it himself. Now he lost the oppturnity of finding a way to the WSS all by himself. Oda couldve easily found him or created him another sword master....just someone that aside from the man he wants to beat. Its just embrassing.


This is my opinion. Be free to discuss your own. Please do not bring up any other character and go off topic
 

Finalbeta

Science Nerd
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#5
There's no embarassment in craving to get stronger by any means as long as this won't make you feel dirt for some reason. Zoro's final set goal isn't even Mihawk himself, his true inspiration is Ryuma, Zoro wants to soar high to the stars, this is why he wants to surpass Mihawk in the first place.
 
#6
What does that matter ? They were never enemies to begin with.
They weren't exactly friends either, Zoro clearly wanted to challenge and fight him.

And: it doesn't matter. I'm just responding to the opening post unlike you.

The point is, Zoro will reach his goal on his own, and asking for help from Mihawk doesn't diminish that.
 
#7
They weren't exactly friends either, Zoro clearly wanted to challenge and fight him.

And: it doesn't matter. I'm just responding to the opening post unlike you.

The point is, Zoro will reach his goal on his own, and asking for help from Mihawk doesn't diminish that.
Lmfao i already did, he did it for luffy thats it,
i dont see anyone moaning at all the help luffys had from former roger pirates like crocus ray, or even neko straight up telling them the last island isnt raftel and they need 4 rps, how is that fair compared to someone like kidd who hasnt had all that.
It doesnt matter if they were friends or enemies that has nothing to do with them fighting to see whose better, they are rivals, and mihawk said hed wait for zoro at the top, its pretty simple.
 

KiriNigiri

The Road To Harmony
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#8
Zoro was a self interested man at the start of the story. When Luffy first encountered him, he promised to kill him should he get in the way of his ambitions. He slowly came to regard Luffy as someone precious, a person he he could stake his life on.

He did this against Kuma, but Oda took it to the next step, putting his own pride as a warrior on the line for Luffy. What you see as embarrassing, I see as admirable. This would apply to all the other Strawhats who've become akin to a family for Zoro.

Pride and honor mean everything to Zoro. They are things he's lived by all his life up t'ill now. So when he is putting them aside for Luffy, it's true fealty. It would've been easy to give Zoro some trial of fire, but he welcomes those with open arms. Bowing his head in humility was probably more painful than any attack a Yonko or Admiral could deal to him, because it's attacking the very core of his character.

It also served to progress Mihawk's character. Mihawk isn't a shallow character designed to just be an obstacle. He has his own dreams, his own interest and principles. He is the true lone wolf of the series who only believed in his own strength. And Zoro bowing for the sake of another, coupled with his experience with Luffy at Marineford, bewilderment over his old rival making a similar sacrifice long ago, opened his eyes to another perspective. There is no shame in protecting something other than your single minded pursuits.

Plus master and student battling it out is not as lame as some of you make it out to be. One of the greatest battles waged were between the master and the student. Zoro and Mihawk's battle will be more than a size measuring contest. They will have both become better men by the time they trade blades once more, in body and spirit.



Edit: To add on to this, arguably the greatest swordsman in One Piece history, Ryuma, became renowned due to his desire to protect something. His home of Wano. And Zoro, now in Wano, desires to protect the country as well, conveniently before the endgame begins.
 
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#9
Lmfao i already did, he did it for luffy thats it,
i dont see anyone moaning at all the help luffys had from former roger pirates like crocus ray, or even neko straight up telling them the last island isnt raftel and they need 4 rps, how is that fair compared to someone like kidd who hasnt had all that.
It doesnt matter if they were friends or enemies that has nothing to do with them fighting to see whose better, they are rivals, and mihawk said hed wait for zoro at the top, its pretty simple.
Lol did you even read it?

The question is does it take away from excitement of being able to do it yourself. We all know why he did it. :lawsigh:
 
#10
They weren't exactly friends either, Zoro clearly wanted to challenge and fight him.

And: it doesn't matter. I'm just responding to the opening post unlike you.

The point is, Zoro will reach his goal on his own, and asking for help from Mihawk doesn't diminish that.
I mean it does. Because Mihawk made Zoro reach himself.

Im pretty sure the way previous WSS and Mihawk got the title wasnt by begging the current WSS for help.

Zoro was a self interested man at the start of the story. When Luffy first encountered him, he promised to kill him should he get in the way of his ambitions. He slowly came to regard Luffy as someone precious, a person he he could stake his life on.

He did this against Kuma, but Oda took it to the next step, putting his own pride as a warrior on the line for Luffy. What you see as embarrassing, I see as admirable. This would apply to all the other Strawhats who've become akin to a family for Zoro.

Pride and honor mean everything to Zoro. They are things he's lived by all his life up t'ill now. So when he is putting them aside for Luffy, it's true fealty. It would've been easy to give Zoro some trial of fire, but he welcomes those with open arms. Bowing his head in humility was probably more painful than any attack a Yonko or Admiral could deal to him, because it's attacking the very core of his character.

It also served to progress Mihawk's character. Mihawk isn't a shallow character designed to just be an obstacle. He has his own dreams, his own interest and principles. He is the true lone wolf of the series who only believed in his own strength. And Zoro bowing for the sake of another, coupled with his experience with Luffy at Marineford, bewilderment over his old rival making a similar sacrifice long ago, opened his eyes to another perspective. There is no shame in protecting something other than your single minded pursuits.

Plus master and student battling it out is not as lame as some of you make it out to be. One of the greatest battles waged were between the master and the student. Zoro and Mihawk's battle will be more than a size measuring contest. They will have both become better men by the time they trade blades once more, in body and spirit.



Edit: To add on to this, arguably the greatest swordsman in One Piece history, Ryuma, became renowned due to his desire to protect something. His home of Wano. And Zoro, now in Wano, desires to protect the country as well, conveniently before the endgame begins.
What he did in Thriller Bark wasnt as bad as this. Zoro believed he didnt derserve to be WSS if he cant protect his captain. Whilst here he's completely lost interest a part of his journey....sacrificing it for the sake of Luffy. No SH has had to do this, and whilsr I believe its consistent to Zoro's character and every SH would do it. Its pretty degrading that he has to do it. Oda's pretty much taken away the tension and risk of the dream, by having Zoro being tutored by Mihawk....on how to defeat himself
 
#11
Lol did you even read it?

The question is does it take away from excitement of being able to do it yourself. We all know why he did it. :lawsigh:
Ive already said why would it ? He hasnt had a magical boost HE TRAINED to get stronger, just because he come out the other side doesnt mean anyone else could. If we nitpick mihawk why stop there why not say the koshiro debacle since he taught kid zoro the concept of ryou that someone in the east blue outside of shimotsuki villiage wouldnt know,

like i just said before is luffys journey a debacle now because his journey to raftel has constantly been aided by others unlike every other pirate.
 
#12
Ive already said why would it ? He hasnt had a magical boost HE TRAINED to get stronger, just because he come out the other side doesnt mean anyone else could. If we nitpick mihawk why stop there why not say the koshiro debacle since he taught kid zoro the concept of ryou that someone in the east blue outside of shimotsuki villiage wouldnt know,

like i just said before is luffys journey a debacle now because his journey to raftel has constantly been aided by others unlike every other pirate.
- Did Roger show Luffy how to get to his lvl.

- Did Rayleigh show Luffy the directions to Raftel

Koshiro helping Zoro with swordsmanship is alright since Zoro doesnt want to defeat him. My point isnt Zoro getting help to get stronger. Its the fact about who hes getting help from. Zoro shouldnt be intereacting with his dream till its time to defeat him.
 

KiriNigiri

The Road To Harmony
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#13
Whilst here he's completely lost interest a part of his journey
He didn't. That's the point. Bowing in front of Mihawk was definitely a painful action on his part, but he stomach it for the crew.
No SH has had to do this, and whilsr I believe its consistent to Zoro's character and every SH would do it.
Not every Strawhat values their pride as strongly as Zoro. It wouldn't have the same effect if Nami or Usopp did something like that because they are swindlers. In fact, Mihawk would refuse them. He only accepted Zoro because he recognized Zoro as a man of pride and honor.
Oda's pretty much taken away the tension and risk of the dream, by having Zoro being tutored by Mihawk....on how to defeat himself
How so? Even if he's being trained by Mihawk, it's still up to Zoro to be strong enough to survive it. And he still has to go through the New World, fighting stronger opponents along the way towards his dream. Plus I don't think Mihawk would go easy on him just because he's his student. They are warriors and agreed to a serious bout.
 

Finalbeta

Science Nerd
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#14
- Did Roger show Luffy how to get to his lvl.

- Did Rayleigh show Luffy the directions to Raftel

Koshiro helping Zoro with swordsmanship is alright since Zoro doesnt want to defeat him. My point isnt Zoro getting help to get stronger. Its the fact about who hes getting help from. Zoro shouldnt be intereacting with his dream till its time to defeat him.
You are forgetting that Luffy accepted to be trained by Rayleigh which is not too different than asking it on his own.

You are already changing your cards, you stated that the actual humiliation was that Zoro had to fight Mihawk, and not the training itself. But now you are changing your perspective.
 
#15
I mean it does. Because Mihawk made Zoro reach himself.

Im pretty sure the way previous WSS and Mihawk got the title wasnt by begging the current WSS for help.
Mihawk just trained Zoro a bit, he will still have to do all the work himself.

WSS stuff is likely not a "title" just passed around randomly like the Olympic torch. It's something people acknowledge you as for your skills. Once Zoro becomes the monster with a sword standing by the pirate king, he will get acknowledged too.

And we can't assume Mihawk wasn't trained by anyone either. :sadgrin:
 
#16
- Did Roger show Luffy how to get to his lvl.

- Did Rayleigh show Luffy the directions to Raftel

Koshiro helping Zoro with swordsmanship is alright since Zoro doesnt want to defeat him. My point isnt Zoro getting help to get stronger. Its the fact about who hes getting help from. Zoro shouldnt be intereacting with his dream till its time to defeat him.
Luffy doesnt want to be as strong as roger he wants to be pirate king

Crocus gave him the info on log poses and raftel that other pirates dont know

ray trained him to survive in the new world so he could become king that other pirates didnt get

and then not only are they gifted a rp at zou they are literally told step by step how luffy can become king



 
#17
He didn't. That's the point. Bowing in front of Mihawk was definitely a painful action on his part, but he stomach it for the crew.

.
What I meant to say was that what Zoro did in front Mihawk is far more bigger than what he did against Kuma. And that hes had to give up apart of the independance of reaching his goal just so he can be strong enough for Luffy.

Not every Strawhat values their pride as strongly as Zoro. It wouldn't have the same effect if Nami or Usopp did something like that because they are swindlers. In fact, Mihawk would refuse them. He only accepted Zoro because he recognized Zoro as a man of pride and honor.
Thats not my point tho. Im not talking about why Oda did it. Its about the effects it now has and if it was really worth it from a writing standpoint

How so? Even if he's being trained by Mihawk, it's still up to Zoro to be strong enough to survive it. And he still has to go through the New World, fighting stronger opponents along the way towards his dream. Plus I don't think Mihawk would go easy on him just because he's his student. They are warriors and agreed to a serious bout.
It doesnt matter at the end of the. I think the pain on Zoro's face shouldve been enough to show how degrading it is too his dream. Being taught by your own rival and endgoal on how to defeat himself. Is a shitty thing no matter how a person looks at it.
 
#18
It doesnt matter at the end of the. I think the pain on Zoro's face shouldve been enough to show how degrading it is too his dream. Being taught by your own rival and endgoal on how to defeat himself. Is a shitty thing no matter how a person looks at it.
Ah but that's your wrong premise: Mihawk is probably not going to be his endgoal. But I don't wanna go off topic :catsweat:
 
#19
Luffy doesnt want to be as strong as roger he wants to be pirate king

Crocus gave him the info on log poses and raftel that other pirates dont know

ray trained him to survive in the new world so he could become king that other pirates didnt get

and then not only are they gifted a rp at zou they are literally told step by step how luffy can become king



But he'll have to be as strong as Roger and be stronger than all the Yonkos.


Ray is far below the lvl Luffy will get to. Nor is Rayleigh a current rival he wants to defeat.

But doesnt really do anything. Getting all this info tells them things. Its not Inu took them by Boat to Raftel or anything. Comoletely

Plus the biggest difference is the Roger Pirates have disbanded they are in no way Luffy's rival nor will he have to defeat them. Theyre just people of the past. Mihawk currently is still WSS.

The most fairest way to compare Luffy to Zoro....is if Roger rose from the dead, showed Luffy Raftel and made him as strong as himself and then helped him to defeat him and surpass him. Now how would you feel ?
 

KiriNigiri

The Road To Harmony
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#20
What I meant to say was that what Zoro did in front Mihawk is far more bigger than what he did against Kuma. And that hes had to give up apart of the independance of reaching his goal just so he can be strong enough for Luffy.
That's the point. I think what you don't get is that it's a sacrifice on Zoro's part, admitting to his own limitations and knowing Luffy needs the best from him. He's not doing it because it's perceived as a short cut.

Thats not my point tho. Im not talking about why Oda did it. Its about the effects it now has and if it was really worth it from a writing standpoint
Knowing why he did it puts it into perspective. Zoro has his own character arc unique to him, and when you exam it, it fits.
It doesnt matter at the end of the. I think the pain on Zoro's face shouldve been enough to show how degrading it is too his dream. Being taught by your own rival and endgoal on how to defeat himself. Is a shitty thing no matter how a person looks at it.
It's not degrading at all because it was a positive experience for both men. Zoro fought through the hell of being trained by his rival for Luffy because that's how much he cherishes him. That's a true demonstration of the code of Bushido and what it means to be a Samurai. It's one of the many examples that show Zoro as more than some muscle-head.
 
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