Chapter Discussion The Harvest - Killer vs Hawkins

Do you think these symbolisms were intentionally planned by Oda?

  • Yes, all of them

  • Majority of them, yeah

  • Maybe some of them

  • None of them

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rerere

rerere

‎
#1
#1

This battle just finished, when it started it was highly critiqued by the community cause it didn't seem to respect the powerscaling and shit like that. In a way it is true as Killer proved to be a much superior fighter to Hawkins, but that was not the point of the battle in the first place imo and I'm not gonna touch it. Oda's purpose was to adress the key differences between two members of the same generation who found themself in front of a pivotal decision and took opposite paths. I made this premise cause I'm going to analyze the overall symbolism and esotherism of this battle (instead of the powerlevel side) and maybe some of you will think that this connections/symbolisms are far fetched/forced/not intentional by Oda. Well in that case feel free to give me your opinion, I'm open for debate.

________________________________________
THE CROSSROAD AND THE PATHS
​
That pivotal decision that divided their paths in the first place was to either oppose or submit when Kaido fell in front of them.
"Massacre Soldier" Killer decided to oppose and fight, he was brutally defeated and arrived in Wano as a war prisoner. He was beaten and chained when Orochi came to blackmail him to become his personal assassin and to eat a SMILE. The promised reward that gave him the strenght to push ahead, no matter the physical and psychological pressure, was the remote chance of keeping his Captain alive. The resolution of a First Mate.
His professional name "Hitokiri Kamazo" grew up quickly as a legend in the Flower Capital, even when heavily damaged (both physically and psychologically) and with his personal weapons seized.
Just like Zorojuro's name was raising up, a mysterious ronin running wild in the land. The two of them, one day, met in the midst of a conflict of interest: Zorojuro stood his ground to protect Kamazo's target. This leaded to a prolonged and shivering battle, in which Kamazo ultimately fell short. He failed his mission.
An interesting detail is that, during his service as an assassin (due to his physical situation and weapon equipement) he seemed to embody the Death (XIII card):
"The thirteenth arcanum is the symbol of transformation, rebirth, liberation and represents the end of a cycle. It rapresents a change dictated by the confrontation with pain"


The design for Kamazo is not a coincidence, the long-hilt scythe, the ruthless introduction (aiming for the head of a little and defenseless girl) and the overall look give him the menacing presence of a Grim Reaper. This is something that was noticed and highlighted by Zoro too, while recovering after their battle. In the Flower Capital he was paragoned to a ghost, an inhuman manifestation.
The failing of the mission made him become useless trash in Orochi's eyes, this is why he was sent in Udon for an execution. During the way, he met his Captain (Udon's recent fugitive) who barely recognized him and decided to surrounder and turn back to Udon to die at his partner's side. If in Ringo we saw a Killer one step away from the breaking point, here in Udon he officially touched the bottom of the barrell. The climax of so much pain.
They were hanged and forced to drown publically. Here there's another interesting detail, in this situation Killer seems to embody another Tarot: the Hanged Man (XII card):
"The twelfth arcanum rapresents a young man who appears upside down, position associated with a public torture. The Hanged Man is traditionally depicted with a serene face, prey to ecstasy rather than pain or humiliation"

Now, the pose seems to already hint at a connection with this card (something that he shares with Kidd, who was senteced with him) but what really strikes is the fact that the face of the Hanged Man is described as serene, in the grip of ecstasy. This is a pretty uncommon trait but when you consider Killer's SMILE it kinda fits... just take another look at the execution and the similarities will for sure be visible.
In they end, the execution was miracously interrupted by Linlin's arrival and havoc. Killer, angry, exhausted, humiliated was finally able to see a glimpse of light at the top of the barrell, he got back on his feet and, following his Captain, prepared himself for an incoming new cycle.

---

Basil "Magician" Hawkins checked his percentages and decided to submit, he then arrived in Wano as a rookie and quickly rose through the ranks, becoming an Headliner. In a crew built on a card theme he's the dealer, like Apoo his role is pretty unique and 'special', menaging to fit in the army without staying under a strict card/number.
Chosing this path he sure built for himself a more comfortable position, he took care of patrolling, and as soon as the Pirate Alliance arrived in Wano he welcomed them introducing the unwritten rule of the country: "You can follow the strong, or disobey them and live your life hiding"
And later he obsesses over capturing Trafalgar Law as he sees the right chance to make the big name for himself in the Beast Pirates and ulteriorly raise the ranks. They first clash in Kuri, and a later attempt of capturing him happened the same day right after Luffy defeat by Kaido's hands. Hawkins, acting like a jackal, was just waiting for Law to come in Luffy's rescue. Even tho he didn't menage to succeed he asserted his objective of capturing all his fellow Worst Generation members.
His hunt kept going in the Flower Capital (during Soba Mask hunt) and menaged to finally capture Hawkins when he was acting as security officer at Yasuie's execution. Since he was in possess of the life of Law's crewates and was also aware that Law would have attempted to rescue them, he was able to confront him another time and blackmail him for a surrender. In exchange, the straw dolls of Law crewmates would have been released. This went to show that he's not just ready to play with his subordinates lives, but also with the life of the people connected to his target.
​
As a Beast Pirate newcomer he brought back an hell of a war spoil, but bringing the head wasn't enough cause intel was the real deal. Here is when the question "Is he doing this for professional reasons or for personal enjoyment?" really comes up. Here is when we catch a glimpse of the purely sadistic side of Hawkins, a side that was kept hidden up to this point. In fact he knew perfectly that Law wouldn't have talked anyway, so all the torture treatment was just for his twisted enjoyment.
It's exactly in the torture room where we see him defeated next time, after Drake secretly freed Law. The following interrogation summarizes his standing regarding his former alliance members Kidd and Killer and especially regarding the Emperors, the inhuman creatures he fears so much.
During their paths Killer and Hawkins stood out as two really different individuals, none of the two being the rapresentation of a good samaritan, but their modus-operandi, priorities and alignment are for sure highlighted to be nearly opposite to each other:

- Killer, a fighter who relies on his own skill. He doesn't fear the future and would rather die trying than live submissive.
- Hawkins, a strategist who relies on percentages. He doesn't see challenging the odds as a smart move, the opposite.

- Killer, a vice captain ready to give his own life to protect his crewmates (his Captain in particular).
- Hawkins, a captain ready to use the life of his subordinates for his personal and egoistic objectives.

- Killer, an assassin who travelled the country as a hitman with the inner hope of saving his captain or, at the very least, keep him alive. He takes no pleasure in the evil he does.
- Hawkins, an hunter who travelled the country with the objective of capturing more pirates from his generation and raise through the ranks. Hides a sadistic nature in everything he does.


_______________________________________
THE COLLISION AND THE BATTLE​

If their paths were previously divided by a crossroad, they later found themself colliding on each other during the decidive night of the Fire Festival.
The collision in particular happened right after the battle with the Emperors, in which Killer took part as one of the 5 New Generation leaders, while Hawkins kept his predatory behavior, hiding in the shadows and showing up at the most convenient moment. Even if their paths were different and influenced them in different ways, their core beliefs were not mutated overall: on one side Hawkins kept acting under the influence of the cards, the luck and the percentages while on the other side Killer, hardened by his journey in hell, kept acting under his own resolution and skill.
Hawkins, quickly recognizing the considerable gap between him and Killer, didn't lose the chance to put the masked man on the corner with one of his sneaky tricks: putting the life of Kidd himself, trapped inside a straw doll, on the stake. A trick just as dirty as the one he previously played on Trafalgar, back in the mainland. Once again he showed his hidden nature behind his sardonic smile, confirming himself (another time) as a merely twisted and wretched man.
Killer, this way, found himself trapped once again in the sick games of a feudal lord. As soon as Hawkins pronounced those words, Orochi's face was probably depicted cleanly in Killer's mind.
Hawkins ran wild from there: started causing damage to Kidd under Killer's powerless eyes, beated the shit of him and mocked his revived trauma (SMILE)... Killer menaged to hold his shit together and, just like he did with Orochi before, offered himself as the exchange price for the life of his Captain, showcasing another time his spirit of sacrifice and embodying once again the definition of the First Mate.
These unexpected words caused an almost childish childish from Hawkins, who completely lost his shit and unleashed all his frustration: he started beating the powerless Killer even harder, bashing Kidd's dreams even more and shouting how invincible the Emperors are and how fool Killer (together with Kidd) are to just think it's possible. But deep down this big talk sounded like an attempt from Hawkins (guided from his resentement and frustration) to convince himself, rather than Killer.
And finally, Killer pronounces the words that really break Hawkins combat spirit:
"We fought through the impossible odds you foresaw, and we're still here while you pissed yourself... and quit, fafa..!"
This is the phrase that really incapsulates the difference between the two. Even tho Killer is the one covered in blood, tired from the long night he's living and with the mask cracked, at the end of the day his resolution is untouched. Sharper than ever.
Hawkins, while clean, virtually untouched and standing on the supposed winning horse, is trembling on himself. Cracking on the inside.
The battle was actually finished with this moment.

______________________
THE HARVEST
​
The Harvest. This is what everything was about: the cutting that separates the ripe from the unripe.
Killer, with his quick mind menages to turn one of Kidd's tragic losses from the past into the key for the victory (the left arm) and with his sharp Punishers slays Hawkins multiple times: his Scarecrow form before, his human arm then, his Strawman head later and Hawkins real body in the end.
Is also ironic how Hawkins tried (and failed) to end Killer with the Death card showed before, the same card that Killer seemed to embody during his assassin service.
But this is only a physical conclusion for their confrontation, the end of it, since the Harvest was a long and slow process that had already begun since the very beginning, since the initial crossroad that had divided them.
Hawkins comes to the realization of this when he draws the Tower (XVI card):
"The Tower card signifies great change, an uheaval of the estabilished order, its hidden meaning... indicates the opening of a new path"


Here is when he realized that the path he chose was not the one he believed to be, that the Emperors were not as invincible as he thought and that Killer's path, even if hellish, was the winning one.

Suffering, spitting blood, going ahead no matter what, relying on the skill and believing in the dreams: this is what made Killer ripe, he survived the Harvest and is now the one holding the scythe.
Playing safe, undermining the others and himself, relying on the cards and never on his guts, throwing away hope and dreams: this is what made Hawkins unripe, he didn't survive the Harvest and ended up being the straw.


​
 
Herrera95

Herrera95

‎
#5
#5
Finalbeta said:
Ulti would definitely destroy the poor man in my opinion. And she's likely only close to YC3 or something at best.
Click to expand...
WTF is vet level?

You are saying Ulti is close to YC3? I don't believe any Tobiroppo is close to Jack. Is already troll enough Oda compare Perospero to Jack.
 
lee33

lee33

‎
#12
#12
In regards to the symbolism, Oda has always been good in implementing it--more so post time skip than pretime skip. Regarding Killer's introduction being Kamazo and eating the smile fruit and Kid's response to it, I think that is still by far the best subplot of Wano, not even close. Symbolism has always been there in One Piece. In particular, I recall in Dressrosa with Doflamingo theme which had a lot of symbolism. Oda named one of Doffy's attacks "Sixteen Holy Assassin's Bullets" to make the connection to his homage when he was a child, at the time he was being tortured by the mob.


but the difference between Doffy's symbolism and Hawkin's symbolism, that you addressed in this thread, is that Doffy's had more than just symbolism attached to him, Oda actually gave him a purpose/development in the story whereas Hawkins had none.

The premise you made,

Oda's purpose was to address the key differences between two members of the same generation who found themselves in front of a pivotal decision and took opposite paths
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can also be said about Apoo as well. So that begs the question, why do we need two characters (Hawkins and Apoo) with the same theme surrounding them especially when Apoo was handled much better? With Apoo, you can see the animosity between him, Kidd and Killer. You can see the development brewing. If Hawkin's were the one that initially betrayed the Kid alliance instead of Apoo, then yes Killer's defeat of Hawkin's would have made much more sense and Hawkin's subplot would have had a purpose but that wasn't the case here. The issue here with Hawkins is that Oda only relied solely on symbolism to push the Hawkin's narrative forward instead of relying on both symbolism and development. Only relying on symbolism for a character's subplot is doom to fail.

The biggest mistake Oda did with Hawkins's character is to give Hawkins theme to Apoo. That is the biggest issue I have with how Oda handled the Hawkin's subplot.
 
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