Problem is, Hara's manga and Hara's stats do not agree with each other.
Side note, every Kingdom community I have ever been in has never taken stats seriously. My own personal experience.
Lastly, stats (i.e. The Intelligence stat) will not determine how certain fighting styles or different strategies will clash against each other. Completely unorthodox strategists like Yotanwa and Kanki would greatly trouble even the best of traditional strategists like Gokei and Shouheikan since they don't even fight battles in the same manner.
Relying on a stats system that has several illogical fallacies that make no sense is far less "serious" than using the actual manga for evidence or is using the manga part of "typical shonen style nonsense"?
Problem is, Hara's manga and Hara's stats do not agree with each other.
Side note, every Kingdom community I have ever been in has never taken stats seriously. My own personal experience.
Lastly, stats (i.e. The Intelligence stat) will not determine how certain fighting styles or different strategies will clash against each other. Completely unorthodox strategists like Yotanwa and Kanki would greatly trouble even the best of traditional strategists like Gokei and Shouheikan since they don't even fight battles in the same manner.
Relying on a stats system that has several illogical fallacies that make no sense is far less "serious" than using the actual manga for evidence or is using the manga part of "typical shonen style nonsense"?
You haven't shown how. You originally gave examples, but without understanding what "strength" stat represented. The guidebook by Hara actually says the strength stat represents fighting skills/prowess of an individual. But hara's done a pretty fine job of connecting his stats to the manga representation. Which is why I've been able to give you explanations for the stats along with the manga examples for all the situations you've mentioned.
No clue which ones you've been up to, however, since Kingdom has gotten more popular there has been a great amount of shounen fans who have entered the fandom and brought upon their shounen logic. I mean would say the same to anybody that would try to discredit Oda's supplementary work like his vivre cards. You as a fan don't have any power to discredit a writer's supplementary work for their work.
Unorthodox vs orthodox strategies is still the clash of strategies at end of the day, whoever comes up with the best strategies takes it. The only matchup issue Hara has pointed out was the whole instincitual vs strategist type, and we've seen it actually play out.
Nobody relies on stats, stats are used as supplementary information to use together with the manga. IE, Gaimou (97) is considered the Might Warrior of the Fire Dragons instead of Earl Shi (96). Gaimou with his S rank experience + 97 stat that's comparable to Renpa, has the same amount of weight as Renpa's swing, as mentioned by Shin in the manga. This is stats being used as a supplementary thing with the manga.
What do you define as a "serious Kingdom discussion community"? Lol, Reddit? I've seen Kingdom discussions on Reddit, sometimes they're okay and sometimes they are Gorilla level.
If you just define serious Kingdom discussion as "people who agree with you" then I would suggest you use a different word than "serious." Maybe more like "self fulfilling."
What value is Mougou's 85 stat if Hara has to clarify (BUT strong enough to push Renpa back). That clearly implies someone with an 85 strength stat is, usually, not strong enough to push Renpa back. So why the hell does Mougou have an 85 in strength?
Why not specify Mougou as just, whatever arbitrary number qualifies him as strong enough to push Renpa back? why not just rank him as a 95 or whatever? (Hint hint, the stats are BS).
If Bajio and Shin are so strong that they get the Alpha sign or whatever (90 + Alpha) Why not just rank them for what they are actually worth? Alpha is a non-specific factor, why is their strength quantified in a non-specific way if the strength stat is supposed to represent what they are capable of? This is basically like saying "Bajio and Shin are This strong. But not really, they're actually much stronger whenever I feel like it. How much stronger? Eat my ass, that's how much stronger."
It's just clear bullshit and I don't know why you insist that the only serious Kingdom discussions are ones where members say "Any instance of the manga that disagrees with Hara's databook stats is just plot." Which imo, you might as well replace the word "plot" in that sentence with any other word in the English language, and you'd have an equally valid Idea being expressed.
"Any instance of the manga that disagrees with Hara's databook stats is just flatulence."
"Any instance of the manga that disagrees with Hara's databook stats is just turbulence."
"Any instance of the manga that disagrees with Hara's databook stats is just migration."
Pick any word, and you get the idea. You might as well say "Renpa didn't one shot Mougou because reasons." A point I still heavily disagree with but I'll get to that more later.
That discuss Kingdom for what it is, taking into account Hara's work on stats, any side pieces likes the pyramid for experience and any other listings he's done, along with the manga to form their discussions. And no I am not referring to reddit, I do not partake in reddit communities. Majority of the kingdom communities I've been part of were from early days when Turnip farmer did the translations for Kingdom, prior to Kingdom becoming a huge sensation.
And, no there are plenty of disagreements. Serious communities simply don't deny a mangaka's supplementary work, but form their stances and arguments while taking into account the mangaka's supplementary work.
Mougu's 85 in strength refers to his fighting skills. The (BUT strong enough to push Renpa back) refers to his physical strength. Renpa called Mougou's technique half-assed and poor, however Mougou's physical strength was then compared to that of Moubu's, in which Mougou was superior to even Renpa in. Both of these things can be explained using the manga, so nothing big there.
Bajio's, Shin's and Kyoukai's character designed with the alpha boost in mind. Where as regularly Shin would not be as strong of a fighter as Ouhon, however, if pushed to the extreme he will end up as a stronger fighter than Ouhon. The requirement for Shin ending up as a stronger fighter than Ouhon is him being pushed to the extreme, otherwise he'd be weaker. That's how Kyoukai, Shin and Bajio's characters have been represented in the manga, and stats with the alpha boost just give affirmation to it. Nothing more mate.
And I've mentioned plot once here in the discussion if I recall right, pertaining to Mougou & Renpa fight. Where Renpa, as shown in the manga, wanted to see how strong Mougou had become and once he saw how Mougou had become, he got serious and took his arm & his horse's head along with putting fear in Mougou's head again. This has nothing to do with whether hara's databook is wrong or right, but actually related to the events that occured in the manga. Had Renpa not have had any interest in finding out how strong Mougou was, he would've finished him off just like Ouki finished of Shoumou, who was renowned for his combat strength. You on the other hand are trying to argue that Mougou, who everybody knows isn't much of a strong fighter (including his own soldiers), is this uber fighter that the databook misrepresented wrong in the stats.
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These are all valid. They are formed directly from statements/hype/plot in the Manga, and not some arbitrary poorly defined number that Hara wrote in a book one time. Why even rely on the stats which are clear bullshit?
Tou's leadership stat is a 94. Ouki's leadership stat is a 93. Just fucking what lmfao, how does Hara write these stats and make such a glaring error like that. I don't care what you think Tou's actual leadership ability is, or what Ouki's actual leadership ability is. How the fuck does one put Tou's leadership stat above Ouki's leadership stat. How does that even happen.
Putting Tou's leadership stat > Ouki's is arguing that 2+2 =5. It's such obvious bullshit that I don't even feel the need to explain why it's bullshit. Or is Tou's leadership stat above Ouki's due to plot as well? You know, the plot where Ouki was Tou's subordinate for decades.
You call them bullshit, yet I've been able to connect every single one of those things that you said is valid to the stats.. stats aren't the issue here.
Shin has been leading the HSU for more longer than Kyoukai or Ten, both of them are better in leadership than Shin. You having an issue with Tou being a better leader than Ouki, despite Ouki stating Tou's abilities aren't inferior to his, is your own personal problem, it has nothing to do with what's represented in the manga or anything of that sort. Kyou was once Ouki's underling as well, and she was a better leader than him too. You don't really have much of an argument to disapprove Hara's statement of who has more leadership, other than underling-leader, when that has nothing to do with an individual's own ability to lead. Some people lead better than others, that's how it works in real life too lol.
And as I pointed out to Owl, Gokei was a vassal of a political figure, thus there is a possiblity he did not see huge warfare, he was a close advisor of a political lord. That stat should tell us that Gokei doesn't have as much experience as the other Wei Fire Dragons, but instead of taking that information, you're questioning that information, while having next to no information on his background and the number of battles he took part in. Other than guesses about how many he possibly could've taken part in.
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i'm getting a 10,000 character limit error perventing me from addressing the next sessions of the post
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Oh jesus dude lmfao. Yeah you're right, numbers that Hara has invented that don't even hold up to basic scrutiny like Tou's leadership ability > his own freaking boss's leadership ability, totally makes sense.
Yea some underlings have better leadership capabilities than their bosses, that's how the world works.. happens everyday. As Ouki himself stated, Tou's abilities aren't inferior to his own.
Tou, though it won't be less than extreme diff fight.
After all Ouki has said that he's equals to him and the same was believed by other GGs as well. He has been only hyped up till now but everyone believes that he hasn't showed his true strength yet.
I firmly believes that he's only toying against his enemies till now.
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