Versus Battle Tou Vs Prime Shouheikun

Who Wins?

  • Tou

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Shouheikun

    Votes: 11 91.7%

  • Total voters
    12

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#1

Name: Tou
Rank: Great General, Former Right Hand Man Of Ouki

VERSUS


Name: Shouheikun
Rank: Chancellor of the Right, Commander in Chief Of the Qin Military, Former Student Of Great General Kou Shou

Scenario: Each General has 20K, vassals and Troops are relatively equal in skill/strength

Who Wins and Why?

Okay, respect to my dude Tou, his strength is comparable to Ouki and he has no tactical weaknesses.

That said, my man Shouheikun is about to take this W. Not only does he know freakishly high level strategy and attacks like the Echelon and Hyourai, but my dude in his prime was stated to be as strong as Moubu.

There’s a reason Shouheikun is The Chief, with skill enough to be elevated above all Qin Generals.

Shouheikun wins, high/extreme diff.

@Owl Ki @Yo Tan Wa @Edward Teach @Shanks etc etc etc
 
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#4
He also compared his intellect to Riboku which puts the Chief in the same IQ tier as the smartest character we’ve seen, and his combat strength in the same tier as arguably the strongest we’ve seen
Aye when i read that line i was like wtf lmao. "One could say his martial prowess is even on the same level as sir Moubu and at the least, it cannot be denied that his intellect is on par with Riboku. The very thought gives you goosebumps, does it not?"

total bullshit if you ask me. he is indeed the top all around man in Qin right now, but i feel like his physical combat hype by kaioku was an asspull to stop Ryofui's attack on Kanyou lol.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#5
Aye when i read that line i was like wtf lmao. "One could say his martial prowess is even on the same level as sir Moubu and at the least, it cannot be denied that his intellect is on par with Riboku. The very thought gives you goosebumps, does it not?"

total bullshit if you ask me. he is indeed the top all around man in Qin right now, but i feel like his physical combat hype by kaioku was an asspull to stop Ryofui's attack on Kanyou lol.
Shouheikun himself considers the idea that his strength was on par with Moubu to be ridiculous lol.

Still, the fact that he is consistently compared to Moubu by multiple different people imo means it’s undeniable that Shouheikun was a complete badass in his youth. Hell even when he slayed the Duke Of Juteki (or whatever lol), he low diffed a guy who rose to the top of a strength-based society lol.

There’s no way Shouheikun wasn’t at the very least comparable to the strongest characters ever imo lol.
 
#6
Shouheikun himself considers the idea that his strength was on par with Moubu to be ridiculous lol.

Still, the fact that he is consistently compared to Moubu by multiple different people imo means it’s undeniable that Shouheikun was a complete badass in his youth. Hell even when he slayed the Duke Of Juteki (or whatever lol), he low diffed a guy who rose to the top of a strength-based society lol.

There’s no way Shouheikun wasn’t at the very least comparable to the strongest characters ever imo lol.
There's something interesting i found around. I don't know the chapter's number exactly but after the failed rebellion of Ryofui and his defeat, he was talking with Saitaku and told him that Qin's king doesn't realize that Shouheikun's not a man that follows anyone without agenda or something like that lol.

Hara is saving this man for some big shocking events definitely. i think Den Den confirmed as well that he's indeed the real life Lord Chang Ping who betrayed Qin and went to Chu which caused a huge lose for Shin in one of his wars as generals ( Shouheikun was born in the Chu capital IIRC )
 
#7
Tou is definitely losing here and @Edward Teach has already put most important portrayal about him in history spoilers. Lol

But still if its a battle with small armies of 20K only than considering the feats of Tou/Ouki main army and comparing it to black-men army SHK, definitely Tou is pushing SHK to extreme diff.

also won't be surprised if Tou comes out with victory here. :kappa:
 
#8
Tou is only slightly weaker than Ouki when it comes to strength, and we haven't had much of strategies from him so far, bt it was Ou hon that made plans for em, in one of the arcs. Might be because Hara is saving him so far, but Shou Hei Kun nonetheless is gonna be superior to him in Strategies anyway. And he also has hyoe of being Mou bu equal, atleast Past Mou bu before he fought with Kan mei, that itself puts him similar lvl to Tou.

I also ended up readin all the Historcal Spoilers recently, and if it turns out true. Shou hei kun could be the final Hurdle in Qin path against with Chu Tiger GG.

And maybe Kanki for Shin, in his invasion of Yan.
Tho Hara already differenciated Kanki from the X (can't remember his name but he conspires with Yan to Kill Qin king. Who witnessed his son being killed when he brought Army to Qin king personal harem). But because of Shin n Kanki buildup we have had so far. Also Kanki makes up the worst Antagonist for morally conscientious Generals like Shin, so he would be worthy foe to take down for him.

I would give it to Shou Hei Kun, a comfortable victory imo.
 
#9
@Admiral Lee Hung Can't reply to you in the other thread due to character limit. But ignoring the OP, I'm gonna give a reply to your Quote from the other thread.
The battle of Kanyou heavily highlighted Shouheikun’s tactics. From the very start of the battle when Shouheikun had Kaioku blowing the horn to signal Hyoushiga, Shouheikun was tactically dismantling Wategi to a genuinely scary degree (though I think Wategi’s tactics were very basic.)

Shouheikun perfectly timed his initial assault with Hyoushiga bursting through the gates of Kanyou. Then Shouheikun sent a cavalry detachment out to his right flank, predicting that Wategi would come at him from a specific direction literal minutes before it actually happened, and Shouheikun’s detachment was able to strike Wategi’s cavalry at the exact right point, and again Shouheikun ordered this minutes before Wategi had sent cavalry to that location.

Shouheikun was thinking minutes into the future, with flawless accuracy, at the same time that he himself was fighting on the front line.

Then of course he was banking on Karyo Ten reading his moves to complete the Hourai but..that’s more hype for Ten than Shouheikun lol.

So the Battle of Kanyou imo showed Shouheikun as scarily effective with his battlefield tactics, he literally mauled a mountain army with a 10:1 disadvantage.

Now, as for Tou vs Shouheikun, I really don’t know how you came to the conclusion that Tou is superior to him. At best I could see you making the argument that because Tou has no strategic or tactical weaknesses, this would prove he’s superior to Shouheikun, but this logic is questionable.

Tou retreated from a literal basic pincer from Rei Ou, a maneuver that was Rei Ou just dipping his toes in the water. Tou retreated from this and never even tried to outright face Rei Ou tactically. Not saying Tou did the wrong thing, but this is just to say that having no weaknesses =/= demonstrating superiority as it’s questionable if Tou can compete with Rei Ou intellectually. Rei Ou and Shouheikun should be comparable intellectually as far as we know, and if you’re going to claim that Tou is above him you’ll need more than just “Tou held his own against Ka Rin” when Ka Rin’s goal was literally just to distract Tou while she snuck an army past him (which she succeeded at).

Oh and one last thing, if Shouheikun were a General right now, he would be Qin’s number 1 bro. The perception about Shouheikun within Kingdom is that he is on par with Riboku intellectually with the combat strength of Moubu. To rank him below Qin’s other Generals whos’ main claims to fame are sharing just one of those stats (EITHER Moubu’s strength OR Riboku’s intellect, not both like Shouheikun) is disrespect my man lol.

But overall great post like I said.
I wasn't trying to make Shouheikun's Hairou strategem look minor. By saying it's his strength that was mainly highlighted is just me being fair to Shouheikun, that I wasn't expecting him to pull Ousen/Riboku like tactic or some uber duber tactic there (so I won't be judging him on it or anything) when Hara mostly wanted to showcase Shouheikun's capabilities as a warrior, something that had remained hidden but was hinted at long ago. That's all. It's still a top 5 low number vs high number feat in the manga, and an impressive strategem.

Now for the Tou + Ousen being above Shouheikun :
(leaving out Yotanwa, since I really don't want to spend more time scouting the whole manga for her argument)

So you're saying I'm disrespecting Shouheikun by putting him below Tou right now, I don't see it that way. Rather I have huge expectations from Shouheikun, since the moment he started scouting out Shin & Kyoukai as crucial pieces to use and considering what's possibly going to happen with the 3 later in the story, I by no means would want to underrate Shouheikun. By then I do have Shouheikun above Tou, but not Ousen. So let me present my argument as to why I have Tou and Ousen above Shouheikun right now.. and why it's not that I'm disrespecting Shouheikun by putting him below Tou, it's that i'm giving Tou the proper respect he deserves, the respect a good amount of the fandom doesn't give him:


Shouheikun vs Ousen:

Strategy:

He effectively formulated a plan to take Gyou on spot, after Shouheikun's strategy failed utterly. But going beyond that he was 1 step-ahead of Shouheikun himself, by figuring out the solution to Qin's food problem, something that left Shouheikun himself shocked:

Shouheikun also couldn't comprehend Ousen's locust plan. And at this point they were just relying on complete faith in Ousen, without knowing what the dude was up to. (Now Riboku on the other hand figured it pretty quick the moment he got information about it). I won't be too harsh on SHK here, since the information was limited compared to Riboku's. However, the man had utterly no clue at what Ousen even could be pulling.

Both of these establish Ousen as the superior in overall strategy.


Battlefield tactics: In order to be completely fair to Shouheikun, I'll be just using hype and portrayal, rather than judging feats, since Shouheikun is highly limited in this regard.

I have absolutely no reason to put Shouheikun on par with Ousen when it comes to tactics. First comes the hype from Renpa about Ousen when compared to Hakuki, the best /2nd best strategist of the Qin 6 (nothing says KoShou was a better strategist than him, but even assuming he was, that'd make Hakuki the 2nd best). Hakuki a person who Renpa found the most troublesome of Qin6 due to his strategies. Now in this battle his tactics were directly on par with Riboku, though Riboku did out do him by a bit tbf.

You may mention the hype that SHK got from his underling about having intelligence on par with Riboku. But it's not much of a hype, when Kanki got the same hype the following arc from an enemy general (arguably bit more credible than Shouheikun's hype). Both of these hypes coming from individuals who have never battled against or with Riboku. Now Kanki is the same guy who was always portrayed as Ousen's inferior since their introduction and even outdone by Ousen in the Zhao war, same Ousen who got outdone by Riboku.


Martial Might:

This is the one field where SHK has Ousen in. And to your point it's a guy who is great in both vs a guy who's great in 1.. but Ousen doesn't need to be great in both, him being great in just 1 is enough to make him superior to SHK. As martial might can always be supplemented by underlings, which Ousen has the upperhand in for as far as we know.


Historically:
Gonna mention historical importance of the two, since both are pretty much belonging to the same generation, as symbolized by their "A" rank experience. Though Ousen already being Qin 6 level, when SHK was still learning strategies under an actual Qin 6 level person.

Shouheikun's importance:-
- Doesn't get much credit for the unification. Because a lot of the unification is done by the generals on their own making decisions, which is the entire purpose of the "6 GG" system, where you have generals making their own decisions with the likes of SHK just chilling back and watching.
- Beating Shin with a surprise attack with the help of Tiger of Chu.
- His importance comes in under Chu, where's used by the Tiger of Chu as a figure head and of course eventually fighting Moubu and what not, where he takes a L.

Ousen's importance:-
He's fucking Wang Jian. Shooot, don't need to say much. The man's been credited as the main reason for Qin's unification military wise.



Even overall, SHK's importance in Qin's unification strategically is drowned out by Tou/Ouhon/Shin/Mouten/etc.

Shouheikun vs Tou:

I think Tou is the most disrespected Qin general out there right now. Mainly because I think he's not as flashy compared to the other generals, and Hara tends to put him to the side compared to somebody like Moubu, whenever they team up. Also, pretty similar to Yotanwa, Hara has yet to give him a "coming out" war, which i'll address down below. So let's get right into the comparison.


Strategy:
Tou is actually superior to SHK in this, but it's not due to his intelligence, but rather due to being a whole rank above him in experience, which makes up for the intelligence gap. It's best displayed in these scenarios:

1st. Outdoing SHK in Chu counter-measures. SHK possesses the entire nation's intelligence network at his hand + Ryofui's. But despite that Tou with his inferior network was able to come to the conclusion that something bigger than Bayou war was about to happen. He also went above and beyond SHK and tracking Wei as well:


SHK had formulated a strategy to counter the Chu, but it failed:


Tou on the other hand saw that Chu would be able to counter the strategy and made himself the counter measure to it, by already being on the spot in their anticipation. Then clashing in a 5k vs 50k battle, which allowed the Qin generals Moubu & Choutou to formulate a proper plan and buy the Qin sometime overall:


2nd. Outdoes SHK in Juuko conquest. SHK's plan for Juuko was to send one of Tou's commanders as Moubu's reinforcement:

Tou however, changed the plan and came himself.

It wasn't just him coming, but also the timing of the arrival. Tou came to the battlefield, a lot sooner than the reinforcements were supposed to according to the plan:


3rd. Nurturing the youth. In this both are actually the same. Tou wants to nurture the Youth for conquest of China, just like SHK was. He's the only general shown doing so. Hara even made a direct connection between the two when it comes to this:



Battlefield tactics: If we're going by just feat, the stuff against him and Karin was better than anything SHK has had to show. I'll address your point about his performance in the Wei Fire Dragon arc. But again, not really fair to SHK due to limited time (plus partially lazy to break down tactical feats from him vs Karin).

I don't think Tou in raw intelligence is on par with Shouheikun in battlefield tactics, however due to the enormous experience under Ouki. He is above Shouheikun for now, until Shouheikun matches his experience (again going back to what I said earlier, SHK will surpass Tou later down the line, because of the major events regarding Tou and military service).


Now you mentioned his performance against Fire Dragons and their main strategist where he decided to pull back from what seemed like a basic pincer. The issue with Tou in that arc is that he was never trying to beat any of the Fire Dragons himself or even Gouhoumei:



Reason for that being related to nurturing the Qin's youth, he sees Great General level potential in Ouhon and Shin (and Mouten), and wanted to cultivate it as much as he could under his own supervision:

Thus he avoided taking out any major generals in that battlefield or make any plans that involved taking out major generals. That's why even Rokoumi was bitching about his tactics and what not during that War. Because it was meant to be the war to showcase to the world "YO THIS IS MFIN GENERAL TOU OF QIN!!"... Akin to what Zhao war & the Kanki war did for those two.


Martial Might: I'm not gonna give Shouheikun the edge over Tou based off of feats. Tou has the most destructive offensive prowess in Qin right now, due to him being in the lead. Shouheikun's "moubu hype", comes from somebody who hasn't seen Moubu's full might right now, and is judging their levels based off of their youth, something that no longer matters.. as Moubu has grown overtime (even just from Bayou to Coalition War). Him being KoShou's main martial might is also just personal headcanon, so hope you aren't actually taking that into account here, since KoShou's army is completely unknown. Shouheikun is simply mentioned to have learned strategy under him, not fought under him (could very well be akin to Mouten learning strategies under SHK).

Tou also has the whole "Great General of Heavens" thing when it comes to fighting, a moment that only him and Tou have had. The boost allowed Ouki to best Houken with just high-diff, despite being inferior to Houken in skills/speed/strength/etc. This of course plays right into what Ouki said about Tou, that his abilities were never inferior to his to begin with (implying equal or superior to Ouki's).



Overall hype/portrayal as generals:

SHK - Intelligence like Riboku & Strength like Moubu

Hype comes from a direct underling of his. One hype is something that's been given to a Riboku's inferior by Riboku's underling, so this hype doesn't hold much, other than that SHK has great intelligence. 2nd hype is using their standing from their youth (though if going by their 1-shot, SHK was only able to best Moubu due to using things like distractions and such), before they went two completely different routes.

Vs

Tou - Abilities on par with Ouki, Great General of Heavens like Ouki, Head and Shoulders above Qin's generals, Perfect General with no weakness, the Qin general that needs to be removed first akin to hype of Ouki.




Hype comes from two generals who were/are at the top of their states' militaries when making those statements. Ouki who keeps it real when it comes to abilities even if they like him or don't like him. Gouhoumei who is an enemy of Qin. Both being more credible sources than anything going for SHK.


Now going into bit of historical spoiler:
Historical reasons as to why SHK will eventually surpass Tou.

Tou takes the first state for Qin, Han. After taking Han, he's made the first governor of Qin conquered territory. A role of utmost importance since it'd essentially serve as the blueprint for how they'd deal with other territories after conquering them.

Now since Tou essentially stops being the military general, SHK on the other hand keeps racking experience.. and thus he will eventually surpass him.





-------------
-------------

To conclude:

Current Tou > Current SHK
EoS Tou < EoS SHK
Current Ousen > Current SHK
EoS Ousen > EoS SHK


But yea that's about it for why Tou & Ousen are superior to SHK. I didn't want to break down tactics and etc feat by feat, since it's too much time, as it's already been hours on this and the Riboku post.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#10
Bruh. This post is enormous lol. I can’t possibly respond to the entire thing. But I’ll just hit the high points.

So Ousen > Shouheikun as a strategist is not something I disagree with, I won’t respond to any of that. I’ll instead just stick to the Tou stuff.

I think Tou is the most disrespected Qin general out there right now. Mainly because I think he's not as flashy compared to the other generals, and Hara tends to put him to the side compared to somebody like Moubu, whenever they team up. Also, pretty similar to Yotanwa, Hara has yet to give him a "coming out" war, which i'll address down below. So let's get right into the comparison.
But who disrespects Tou though? Anybody on WorstGen? I’ve never seen anybody underrate the guy or sell him short.

As far as I’ve seen, everyone on WorstGen has him on the level of the Qin 6, just like Ouki said and just like he’s always been portrayed, despite never really showing his full abilities.

Is this just because I made the Rei Ou comment? Look, I wasn’t trying to downplay Tou, I was trying to debunk the point you made about him being above Shouheikun because he doesn’t have any tactical openings to exploit. The original point being that Tou technically showed zero openings against Rei Ou while retreating from him, but that said, Tou never showed that he can exactly best Rei Ou in open war anyway.

Tou’s main moments of hype in the series come from him showing his abilities off against people we all know he’s stronger than anyway.

Rinbukun? Okay, even if Rinbukun was strong enough to be the Supreme Commander of a minor extinct state like Beki or Reki, we still know Tou should be above him just from the hype placed on Tou. The Qin 6 hype that Tou has upon himself warrants such respect without even needing to analyze Tou vs Rinbukun.

Tou vs Karin? Two points there:

1. Like I said previously, Karin’s aim was never to defeat Tou, her primary aim was to sneak an army past Tou, which she succeeded at
2. Tou never showed that he was tactically on par with Karin in the first place. At best he showed that he is capable of holding her off for a period of time, never that he was outright equal to her. At least imo.

Tou vs Houmei?
The main hype of this battle comes from Ouhon, not Tou. Don’t forget that Tou’s initial battle plan was to request reinforcements from Ousen in the north, and he only opted not to do that when Ouhon became vocal and expressed his own battle plan. Tou made a great judgement call by opting to go with Ouhon’s plan, sure, but Chiyoyou was 90% a testament to how far Ouhon had grown, and only a 10% testament to Tou’s ability as his judgement was what allowed Ouhon’s plan to be executed.

And even if Tou and Homei had personally slugged it out, everyone who reads Kingdom should’ve known Tou was above Homei before the battle even began.

Tou vs Rei Ou: and like I said, Tou chooses not to engage Rei Ou so we can say nothing about how he compares to Rei Ou there.

Now, looking at Shouheikun’s competitors so far in this manga.

Shouheikun has mainly competed with Riboku and Shunshinkun. Already we can see the humongous gap between Shouheikun’s competition and Tou’s, and it is unfair to Shouheikun to downplay him for going back and forth which characters who are intellectually head and shoulders above everyone Tou has ever faced bar Karin, who Tou never showed that he was on par with anyway.

And even against such competition, Shouheikun has shown moments of superiority. His coalition defense strategy as @Shanks pointed out was almost entirely successful, the plan for the Coalition Army’s attack formulated by Shunshinkun with Riboku’s own guidance was completely foiled by the defense strategy of Shouheikun who had a massive disadvantage, even when Kouretsu wanted to send reinforcements, Shouheikun made that impossible. The only moment where Shouheikun’s coalition defense outright failed was when Riboku snuck through the Bu Pass which was only 1 failure in a sea of successes.

The coalition war is outright proof that Shouheikun intellectually slugs it out with the likes of Riboku and Shunshinkun, don’t forget that Riboku is the one who outright defeated Tou’s master. When Shouheikun captured Sanyou, the only two people in China who saw through Shouheikun’s intentions were Shunshinkun and Riboku, and these are the people Shouheikun has proven himself on par with intellectually.

Tou on the other hand, like I said, hasn’t proven himself intellectually on par with Rei Ou or Karin.

Tou is actually superior to SHK in this, but it's not due to his intelligence, but rather due to being a whole rank above him in experience,
Just briefly, Shouheikun is an entire rank above Tou. If you’re referring to battlefield experience then yes, Tou has him beat. Outright skill? Well, only one of these two characters was outright promoted above Great General.

3rd. Nurturing the youth. In this both are actually the same. Tou wants to nurture the Youth for conquest of China, just like SHK was. He's the only general shown doing so. Hara even made a direct connection between the two when it comes to this:
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the most concrete argument for Tou being above Shouheikun in the entire manga, the fact that Shouheikun was about to promote Ouhon to General after Chiyoyou, but didn’t because Tou personally persuaded him not to lol.

Tou has the most destructive offensive prowess in Qin right now,
I don’t think you’ll convince anyone who reads Kingdom of this lol. More on that:

and is judging their levels based off of their youth, something that no longer matters
Shouheikun judges Moubu’s offensive strength on the fact that Moubu defeated the Giant of Chu himself while Tou was slugging it out with Rinbukun. This is why Moubu was promoted to Great General before Tou (though granted with Ryofui there was probably some political posturing as well).

Tou would not have been able to slay Kanmei the way Moubu did. And of course while 1v1 fighting strength is not the only component of the offensive strength of an army, it is a very important factor.

Him being KoShou's main martial might is also just personal headcanon, so hope you aren't actually taking that into account here,
I’m not lol. But this wouldn’t hype Shouheikun’s strategic ability anyway.

With Shouheikun, it’s the perception about his strength that shocks me. At first, people said he was clearly above Moubu, then when Moubu slayed Kanmei, people started saying Moubu was as strong as Shouheikun. Like, wat. Shouheikun’s martial achievements must have been insane.

Granted SHK never considered himself superior to Moubu so..I don’t take the quotes about him being on par with Moubu too seriously, but I think the perception about him is evidence that he has probably slayed martial top tiers.

Hype comes from a direct underling of his.
Shouheikun’s initial hype actually came from Saitaku. Then Moubu stated he would crush Ouki if Ouki was in front of him while also not objecting to himself being weaker than Shouheikun.

In other words, Moubu outright seemed to think Shouheikun was stronger than Ouki. (He was likely wrong lol)

But overall I never disrespected Tou lol. I’ve always ranked him as Ouki’s equal just because Ouki said it lol.

But Ouki was defeated by Riboku, and Shouheikun and Riboku have been portrayed as intellectually comparable (though advantage Riboku).
 
#11
Close call but I would say SHK. Some brilliant points were made by @Xione but most of them were coming from Tou being directly under Ouki for so many years and having a firsthand experience of the battlefield and extincts that comes with it. SHK is above that so he failed to notice those minor errors. SHK is the chief of Qin military so he always has his hands full with countless other affairs. But, when it comes to clear 1 Vs 1, there is no reason for me to believe that Tou walks with a W.
 
#12
Sorry
But Tou will mid diff SHK
...
Even if SHK has a great tactics and mind and strength 💪

He will not win against tou

Who spent all his life in the field against the mighty generals of old gen
With experience and tactics and strength he has from those years in wars even ouki saying tou is = ouki


while SHK in his office all the time
with no disrespect to his intelligence or his tactics.

but he is no match for tou in the field
....

You all disrespecting my boy tou

Tou 》SHK
 
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