Chapter Discussion What Zoro said was CAP…

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#23
No read it again. Luffy only stopped in the first place because Ace stopped and fought Akainu like an idiot.

If he just focused on running instead of being baited both would have lived.
The causality doesn't matter. If you wanna go that path, then Luffy was there to rescue Ace cause he got his vivre card, because he's his brother, because they accidentally met etc. etc.

The end result is Ace's death, which was his decision, but nevertheless it happened because of Luffy in that moment.

IF they attempted to rescue or help Ace before he was surrounded by everything Marines had to offer, and not last minute at Marineford in this manner, would they have succeeded? That is the parallel to Vivi. Last minute might be too late.
 
#24
That's not relevant to this discussion though, I said the last minute rescue backfired tenfold, which it did because Ace died to save Luffy DURING Luffy's rescue of Ace.
It is because Luffy saved Ace. They were home free.

As they were running away, Ace decided to stop and take Akainu's bait and that is when his downfall begun. Akainu wouldn't have had a free shot at Luffy if Ace had followed with the escape.

Luffy only became vulnerable after Ace's actions. So like I said, you need to reread that ending if you really believe it was Luffys fault for Ace's death
 
#25
It is because Luffy saved Ace. They were home free.

As they were running away, Ace decided to stop and take Akainu's bait and that is when his downfall begun. Akainu wouldn't have had a free shot at Luffy if Ace had followed with the escape.

Luffy only became vulnerable after Ace's actions. So like I said, you need to reread that ending if you really believe it was Luffys fault for Ace's death
They weren't free lol, they were in the middle of a battlefield, literally

It's a chain of events. But Ace wouldn't have died if he didn't choose to save Luffy. So he died for Luffy.
 

Gol D. Roger

ȶɦɛ քɨʀǟȶɛ ӄɨռɢ
#26
They weren't free lol, they were in the middle of a battlefield, literally

It's a chain of events. But Ace wouldn't have died if he didn't choose to save Luffy. So he died for Luffy.
And that wouldn't have happened if Ace didn't get triggered and gone back to fight Akainu. If it's a chain of events, then you can't blame the guy who saved his ass for that. It's not Luffy's fault that they stopped running lmao.
 
#27
And that wouldn't have happened if Ace didn't get triggered and gone back to fight Akainu. You can't blame the guy who saved his ass for that. It's not Luffy's fault that they stopped running lmao.
I'm not blaming him, I'm just saying Ace gave his life for him as a result, which is a fact.
 
#28
They weren't free lol, they were in the middle of a battlefield, literally

It's a chain of events. But Ace wouldn't have died if he didn't choose to save Luffy. So he died for Luffy.
free there wasn't literal obviously.

You contradict yourself. The chain of events start when Ace stopped to take Akainu's bait so why are you ignoring that to focus on Luffy when in fact it was Ace's fault for Luffy being vulnerable to Akainu in the first place?
 

Gol D. Roger

ȶɦɛ քɨʀǟȶɛ ӄɨռɢ
#29
I'm not blaming him, I'm just saying Ace gave his life for him as a result, which is a fact.
Ace died to save Luffy. So, in a way it's Luffy's fault.
That's blaming

I'm just saying Ace gave his life for him as a result, which is a fact.
That has nothing to do with Luffy going to Ace at the last moment though. It's an unforeseen incident. Luffy'd have still succeeded if it weren't for that. Besides, Luffy didn't have enough resources back then but he does now. He's a Yonko now. He could do things that he couldn't do back then. It's completely illogical to expect Luffy to stop believing his friends could deal with their own shit because Ace died. That completely goes against how SHs function in general.
 
#31
free there wasn't literal obviously.

You contradict yourself. The chain of events start when Ace stopped to take Akainu's bait so why are you ignoring that to focus on Luffy when in fact it was Ace's fault for Luffy being vulnerable to Akainu in the first place?
As I said, if we go the causality path, we can go all the way to everything being Roger's fault for Ace being born.

The point here is that trying to rescue Ace "only when he really needed it" backfired.

That is what Zoro's pointing out they should do with Vivi, which Luffy shouldn't accept as easily seeing as how it went last time.

That has nothing to do with Luffy going to Ace at the last moment though. It's an unforeseen incident. Luffy'd have still succeeded if it weren't for that. Besides, Luffy didn't have enough resources back then but he does now. He's a Yonko now. He could do things that he couldn't do back then. It's completely illogical to expect Luffy to stop believing his friends could deal with their own shit because Ace died. That completely goes against how SHs function in general.
Ya, the difference now is that it'd definitely not happen again. Luffy's whole vow is to not let it happen again to his friends.

The issue is Luffy is dismissing whatever danger Vivi might be in, after an Ace comparison.

He shouldn't dismiss it so easily cause: a) she might be in grave danger, b) he didn't have a fabulous time when Ace was in grave danger. If anything, mentioning Ace should remind him of loss and urgency.

I mean ofc we know nothing will happen to Vivi, but the SHs don't know that
 
B

Ballel

#33
Ah Chapter 1060

I’m all for Zoro Vice Captain moments in the series. Infact their some of the most iconic moments in the series.

This chapter While it does appear to be a Vice Captain Moment for Zoro it’s really all CAP.
Zoro is reminding Luffy about what he said about Ace and while Luffy did say that.
The end result of trusting Ace and letting Him have his own Adventures was

Death

Back then Luffy had the Whitebeard Pirates their Allys, as well as the Impel Down Allys at his side


Man power arguably even greater than the Strawhats and their Grand Fleet.

So what good is trust when you couldn’t save a more competent character than Vivi with a stronger group characters?


And Let’s be honest…. The Strawhats are gonna end up saving Vivi anyways….



Would have been character development on Luffys part if he just stopped everything and decided to pursue his friend earlier this time around since waiting got his other killed.


But yea Leave Your Thoughts

Boy
What do you think happens when the shs go to mariegeoise now?
You think they'll rescue Vivi and go home??

They DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE SHE IS
 
#36
Ace example is kind of weird but it did get Luffy to calm down for whatever reason.

and none of the strawhats said anything against it, meaning they all agree with zoro lmao.
If Vivi dies, there is blood on Zoro's hands and his character cannot recover from that.

I guess that is where Oda ia taking the story. Oda is teaching Luffy a lesson about not following his gut.
 
#37
As I said, if we go the causality path, we can go all the way to everything being Roger's fault for Ace being born.

The point here is that trying to rescue Ace "only when he really needed it" backfired.

That is what Zoro's pointing out they should do with Vivi, which Luffy shouldn't accept as easily seeing as how it went last time.
That is a poor excuse.

Actually that's not what Zoro is saying. Zoro's statement hinges on the fact that they do not know where Vivi is.
He goes on to state that if that time comes, then they will fight anybody.
 
#38
Ya, the difference now is that it'd definitely not happen again. Luffy's whole vow is to not let it happen again to his friends.

The issue is Luffy is dismissing whatever danger Vivi might be in, after an Ace comparison.

He shouldn't dismiss it so easily cause: a) she might be in grave danger, b) he didn't have a fabulous time when Ace was in grave danger. If anything, mentioning Ace should remind him of loss and urgency.

I mean ofc we know nothing will happen to Vivi, but the SHs don't know that
@Gol D. Roger I have an issue with this in particular because Luffy doesn't showcase he changed after Marineford in this instance.

Zoro reminded Luffy of his words before Ace's death. So Marineford which was a huge loss and ultimately failure, in the end doesn't matter for changing the mc.



It was a big dilemma he had to overcome, and now suddenly it's back to "she has her own adventures!". Wut :whitepress:
 
#39
That is a poor excuse.

Actually that's not what Zoro is saying. Zoro's statement hinges on the fact that they do not know where Vivi is.
He goes on to state that if that time comes, then they will fight anybody.
Zoro statement would have been fine if there was no Ace mentioned in it. Cause Marineford was that moment for the Ace example and it ended poorly.
 

ZenZu

The only one who can beat me is me
#40
@Gol D. Roger I have an issue with this in particular because Luffy doesn't showcase he changed after Marineford in this instance.

Zoro reminded Luffy of his words before Ace's death. So Marineford which was a huge loss and ultimately failure, in the end doesn't matter for changing the mc.



It was a big dilemma he had to overcome, and now suddenly it's back to "she has her own adventures!". Wut :whitepress:
You could see how badly Luffy wanted to go there. But he let it be, simply because of Ace's pride (and strength) apparently.

Vivi and Ace have nothing to do with each other, different circumstances, different characters, and Ace ended up a donut anyway. Oda was making a call back but pointless in the end.
 
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