Break Week Where are all of the ZKK trolls? Are y’all in the mud with Kaido?

Franosuke

Franosuke

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#81
#81
Monkey D Theories said:
Who knows.

I just know one thing. Luffy's victory over kaido is essential in his journey as joyboy, and Zoro stealing this victory in any way would destroy everything Oda has set up between the two.

idk how you don't understand this. King was Zoro's moment, Kaido is Luffy's. Zoro getting King and Kaido makes no sense, especially when Oda already had Zoro slay a "dragon" against king.
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It's not that I don't understand it. But what I'm saying is, the fandom's gripes with ZKK happening have nothing to do with whether or not it may actually happen--it's only whether or not you would personally feel satisfied with Luffy's victory. There's no rule saying "if Kaido wakes up, Luffy didn't win."

If there's a narration box that says Luffy won, then he won. What's the difference between Kaido being arrested by the marines and Zoro killing Kaido? In the scenario that I proposed, Luffy will have already gotten his victory, already gotten the narration box, and gone off to the celebrations.

Did Kid and Law canonically defeat Big Mom? Yes. They got the narration box, they won the fight, it happened. Do people have issues with it? Of course.

Think about it this way: Kaido waking up sometime after being knocked out is literally just what would happen if you remove the plot armor of the marines conveniently coming in to sweep up the villain after their defeat by Luffy's hands.

We even have instances where something similar actually happened: Did you feel dissatisfied when Enel escaped on his arc? When Katakuri just admitted defeat instead of being KO'd normally?

And don't forget, this is not (or shouldn't be) an arc where Zoro is bound to his usual role. He is 99% likely to originate from Wano. This is an arc heavily centered on samurai and the samurai code as well.

Do you think Oda will let us leave Wano without giving Zoro a real and true impact moment? An arc where Zoro's past should be revealed, an arc where we should be finding out about black blades, an arc where Zoro is the most important he will ever be?

However much you think Oda did Kid dirty in Wano, he'd be doing Zoro about 100x dirtier to not fulfill these things. You can say it doesn't have to be ZKK, but then what will he do?
 
Monkey D Theories

Monkey D Theories

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#84
#84
Franosuke said:
It's not that I don't understand it. But what I'm saying is, the fandom's gripes with ZKK happening have nothing to do with whether or not it may actually happen--it's only whether or not you would personally feel satisfied with Luffy's victory. There's no rule saying "if Kaido wakes up, Luffy didn't win."

If there's a narration box that says Luffy won, then he won. What's the difference between Kaido being arrested by the marines and Zoro killing Kaido? In the scenario that I proposed, Luffy will have already gotten his victory, already gotten the narration box, and gone off to the celebrations.

Did Kid and Law canonically defeat Big Mom? Yes. They got the narration box, they won the fight, it happened. Do people have issues with it? Of course.
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Kid and Law's victory is supposed to be questionable, Luffy's isn't. That is the difference between the two. You are being very dishonest when you say that ZKK doesn't take away from Luffy's win. It basically argues that zoro can do in 1 chapter what took Luffy like 30.

Franosuke said:
And don't forget, this is not (or shouldn't be) an arc where Zoro is bound to his usual role. He is 99% likely to originate from Wano. This is an arc heavily centered on samurai and the samurai code as well.

Do you think Oda will let us leave Wano without giving Zoro a real and true impact moment? An arc where Zoro's past should be revealed, an arc where we should be finding out about black blades, an arc where Zoro is the most important he will ever be?

However much you think Oda did Kid dirty in Wano, he'd be doing Zoro about 100x dirtier to not fulfill these things. You can say it doesn't have to be ZKK, but then what will he do?
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Are you fucking kidding me? Oda had Zoro fight on the rooftop. He had him block and deflect hakai. He had him scar kaido. He had him awaken ACoC. He had him beat king.

Zoro already got his victory, he already had his big moment, that was beating king. As for his past or the black blades, none of this requires zoro to kill kaido, its just zoro fanboy headcanon.
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I think zoro fans should just be honest and say that they don't really want Luffy to defeat kaido. That's essentially what ZKK is. Everyone says that Kid and Law had a fake victory, yet when we talk about ZKK, you pretend like Kid and Law's victory was legitimate just to argue that Luffy's victory will be the same.

If you ask me, this is just cope over the fact that Luffy>>>Zoro.
 
JoNdule

JoNdule

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#85
#85
zzShinichi said:
I doubt it's gonna happen next chapter if it ever happens. we still need to see the reaction first to Kaido's defeat.
But at this point, who knows Oda anymore.....
By your logic, Big Mom was concious when Kid/Law pushed her down from Onigashima, and she was knocked out unconcious by the bombs. So, is it Kid/Law's victory, or the bomb's ?
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Bombs aren't humans so thr victory goes to Kid and law

If kaido gets up to fight again soon or later then luffy didn't win
 
Kiiro

Kiiro

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#87
#87
Kaido is not done, he still coming. Maybe he will join the party with Luffy.

We still have Cipher Pol ships, they are near. So Kaido will do something before dying.
 
zzShinichi

zzShinichi

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#88
#88
Echizen_Jo_Ndule said:
Bombs aren't humans so thr victory goes to Kid and law

If kaido gets up to fight again soon or later then luffy didn't win
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But the bomb got triggered by Big Mom herself and Kanjuro's fire...Law and Kid didn't know about their existence
If the bomb weren't there, Big Mom wouldn't have gone down
Also i like how you completely dismisss my 2 cases of people still standing up afterr their defeat
Wuss:milaugh:
 
Franosuke

Franosuke

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#89
#89
Monkey D Theories said:
Kid and Law's victory is supposed to be questionable, Luffy's isn't. That is the difference between the two. You are being very dishonest when you say that ZKK doesn't take away from Luffy's win. It basically argues that zoro can do in 1 chapter what took Luffy like 30.



Are you fucking kidding me? Oda had Zoro fight on the rooftop. He had him block and deflect hakai. He had him scar kaido. He had him awaken ACoC. He had him beat king.

Zoro already got his victory, he already had his big moment, that was beating king. As for his past or the black blades, none of this requires zoro to kill kaido, its just zoro fanboy headcanon.
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I think zoro fans should just be honest and say that they don't really want Luffy to defeat kaido. That's essentially what ZKK is. Everyone says that Kid and Law had a fake victory, yet when we talk about ZKK, you pretend like Kid and Law's victory was legitimate just to argue that Luffy's victory will be the same.

If you ask me, this is just cope over the fact that Luffy>>>Zoro.
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I'm not sure why you're acting like I'm trying to give Zoro feats that surpass Luffy's. If that were the case, I'd be telling you that Zoro will defeat and kill awakened Kaido in a 1v1 while Luffy sleeps.

And if you think that Oda putting Zoro on the rooftop should be enough for an arc that is pretty much built for Zoro, then I really don't know what to tell you. Killer also fought on the rooftop, that should be enough to tell you that it wasn't the "special" moment we are looking for. As for Zoro's rooftop feats, what happened afterwards? Zoro got crippled and he's still dealing with the consequences from that, while his scar on Kaido has yet to be mentioned again.

And no, Zoro's "big moment" can't be beating King, because it's the same thing he does every single arc--defeating the enemy's no. 2. In fact, King isn't even the no. 2 enemy because Big Mom exists.

I've never once denied Luffy defeating Kaido. Not once. But do you know why ZKK is a good outcome? Because it hits a ton of birds with one stone.

-It gets rid of the issue of what happens to Kaido after Luffy defeats him
-It allows Zoro to be properly acknowledged as a samurai of Wano, and the second Ryuma---which has been hinted it multiple times both in and out of the manga
-It intertwines with Zoro's backstory/lineage
-It reinforces Zoro's necessity to the crew
-It creates an actual conflict for Luffy, where he has to deal with the consequences ofnot being careful enough nor ruthless enough in the face of his enemies

You say that all of those Zoro points can be covered without ZKK. But these things need to be intertwined with an important plot. Treating them as an afterthought in the post-arc lore is bad. I can't think of any other important plots that would lead to Zoro's lineage stuff, black blades, Zoro being acknowledged, etc. We've been waiting on Oda to deliver this stuff about Zoro for 2 damn decades

You're making everything about feats. I don't care about ZKK being a feat. You're not gonna see me spamming "Zoro > Luffy" if ZKK happens. It's what ZKK implies, that's what I want
 
Finalbeta

Finalbeta

Law Nerd
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#92
#92
I think there's a lot on going for it

Zoro's care for the Samurai cause and his own clear explicit declaration and also the parallel with no one killing Kaido in 20 years so Oden parallel, also the Moon Prophecy parallel with Oden and the Moon tatoo, his parallel with Ryuma and the Dragon Slaying. And there should be something else as well on going.
 
Monkey D Theories

Monkey D Theories

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#94
#94
Franosuke said:
I
-It gets rid of the issue of what happens to Kaido after Luffy defeats him
-It allows Zoro to be properly acknowledged as a samurai of Wano, and the second Ryuma---which has been hinted it multiple times both in and out of the manga
-It intertwines with Zoro's backstory/lineage
-It reinforces Zoro's necessity to the crew
-It creates an actual conflict for Luffy, where he has to deal with the consequences ofnot being careful enough nor ruthless enough in the face of his enemies
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Oda has a million ways of writing kaido out of the story after Luffy defeats him, the man could literally go join enel on the moon.
He's also not going to create a conflict about Luffy needing to be ruthless, because that goes against the point of Luffy's character. Luffy doesn't kill while at the same time not needing to kill. He's not Aang or Batman.

I also don't think Oda cares about zoro's backstory or the second ryuma stuff nearly as much as fans do. I think he even said that he wasn't sure he would expand on zoro's lineage.
Regarding the lineage of Ushimaru, I'm not sure whether I'll draw more or hide it, so let's end the discussion here. They really do look alike huh?
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Also, there is no "second ryuma" in the same way there is a second Joyboy. The second joyboy is something that has been prophesized over.
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Franosuke said:
And if you think that Oda putting Zoro on the rooftop should be enough for an arc that is pretty much built for Zoro, then I really don't know what to tell you. Killer also fought on the rooftop, that should be enough to tell you that it wasn't the "special" moment we are looking for. As for Zoro's rooftop feats, what happened afterwards? Zoro got crippled and he's still dealing with the consequences from that, while his scar on Kaido has yet to be mentioned again.

And no, Zoro's "big moment" can't be beating King, because it's the same thing he does every single arc--defeating the enemy's no. 2. In fact, King isn't even the no. 2 enemy because Big Mom exists.
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Zoro is a side character. He doesn't need anymore big moments. Yeah he's one of the most important straw hats, but the ZKK theory effectively wants to put Zoro in the place of the main character. Even in wano that's not going to happen.
 
Soyz

Soyz

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#100
#100
Shishi said:
That's news to me. I've only ever heard of one other person who slayed a dragon above the flower capital - the one eyed samurai & sword god ryuma. A samurai that has been explicitly paralleled to Zoro.

Zoro's ambition will propel him far above the likes of Oden and killing the Dragon that currently terrorizes the land of samurai is a step forward towards his name reaching the heavens
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The whole point of this arc is to do what oden couldn't do, and that man is Luffy , zoro already mimicked ryuma by doing the same pose on kings fire dragon, you need to admit that narratively zoro got no reason to do that, when luffy got so many parallels with oden , ryuma slayed tha dragon to protect HIS people of wano, zoro doesn't have any connection that comes close to luffy with the people in wano, you guys just want him to do it to wank zoro as a guy who killed someone no one could, not even himself.
What will happen is luffy defeats kaido, and either kaido tries to kill himself or he get taken by marines willingly, if oda actually intended zoro to do it, it would be more acceptable then just a bunch of hardcore zoro fans who nitpick panels that dont even connect to try to push their agenda.
 
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