General & Others Who still thinks Zoro surpasses Oden this arc ?

Would Zoro defeat Oden in 1 vs 1 combat at the end of Wano ?


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Seth

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When did i mentioned Zoro? lol, insecure much?
But I did because look what thread you are talking in, mate. Zoro is part of this discussion.

I have ALWAYS been saying Kaido's tittle as strongest creature alive is high bullshit, and i dare you to find any thread of me fanboying over Oden. I still think the fact that WB treated him as a brother instead of a son speaks of how much he respected Oden, he was probably a high top tier by the time his journey ended. Still a terribly fucking stupid character for obeying Orochi's demands though.
I prove to you he wasn't nor was Kaido. Oden would be a top tier if he lived to this day. That's one thing I can agree on.

Oh and thank you for giving me another argument.

Zoro put a scar on Yonko level Kaido who was in Hybrid too not lame dragon form.


We've not slept on Oden mate, community fucking overrate him because his character was built up since fucking Zou and turned out to be just fine power wise and overrated character wise.

Oden during his exceution, told Kaido to get stronger for the future event to come. Kaido took that seriously and got stronger.
Lmao mate. This too.

:milaugh:
 
Kaido never strugled with Moria, im not sure since i dont remenber that well, but didnt Moria just infiltrated wano to steal some shit and was chased out from there? You might be right though, and Kaido could have been somehow weaker back then, but i dont see it since he dosent seem the kind of character that trains at all, just drinks all day
It was stated they had a great battle, so yeah it wasn't one-sided.
 

Finalbeta

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I think even durability wise Oden was likely below Current Zoro other than the defensive output stuff and Asura speed. But Oden was such an AP freak and also crazily enduring.
 
Current Luffy is above Oden already. He surpassed Oden in chapter 1010. Zoro will surpass Oden at the end of this Arc, when he heals from defeating king. Zoro will be 20% above Oden.

kaido is stronger now then he was back then. Current base Luffy split the sky with Hybrid Kaido. Oden did not even face hybrid kaido. Oden also never split the sky with Kaido.

Luffy is on another level.
i don't think he is kaido include oden alongside shanks wb roger as a ceiling that luffy will reach
i don't think kaido is that much stronger he was blow oden he is slightly above oden now

let see what kaido will say he fought oden and he is fighting luffy now its a big maybe if zoro will fight kaido again or not (don't care about zkk) oda is wanking oden left and right and he like wanking luffy kaido probably will say he surpassed oden or not
 

Echizen_Jo_Ndule

One Piece sucks
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Or you guys place way to much significance to something.
It was Oden and his own skill with his blades. I really doubt Kaidou wasn't experienced back then, that just sounds like bullshit to me. The God's Valley Island w/e incident happened much longer ago than that. Kaidou was already tough enough by 20 years ago.
Kaido was 39 as Oden
Both were in prime although Oden peaked at 39 while kaido grew a bit shortly after and became WSC in his 40s

Luffy is surpassing Oden, Zoro? Nah
 

Cinera

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Make the case for me, since the panels themselves are not telling me that.
Zoro will have surpassed Oden in a specific area, but it does not tell me anything about overall.
It's a narrative.

The narrative tying Zoro and Oden together is Enma.

Even when Zoro unleashes his Haoshoku, he marvels at how Oden was able to so easily wield Enma even while losing so much haki.

For all his prowess, Oden wasn't able to go the extra mile and make Enma a kokuto. When Zoro is able to accomplish that โ€” a feat that even at his peak, Oden could not perform โ€” he would have exceeded him.
 
It's a narrative.

The narrative tying Zoro and Oden together is Enma.

Even when Zoro unleashes his Haoshoku, he marvels at how Oden was able to so easily wield Enma even while losing so much haki.

For all his prowess, Oden wasn't able to go the extra mile and make Enma a kokuto. When Zoro is able to accomplish that โ€” a feat that even at his peak, Oden could not perform โ€” he would have exceeded him.
It's possible that the making of a black blade is not as much of a "power level" achievement as it is as a new milestone in furthering one's relationship with his sword.

For example Shanks might not have a black blade because of that reason.

In the same vein, Oden might have just brute forced his way through using Enma with ease because of how much of a monster he was, and never really went through the same hardships as Zoro in using it, and took the time to understand it, which made it so that he did not further whatever one needs to do to turn it into a black blade.
 

Cinera

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In the same vein, Oden might have just brute forced his way through using Enma with ease because of how much of a monster he was, and never really went through the same hardships as Zoro in using it, and took the time to understand it, which made it so that he did not further whatever one needs to do to turn it into a black blade.
If this was true, there wouldn't be a narrative tying Zoro and Oden's mastery of Enma.

Even Kaido saying there shall never again be a monster samurai like Oden is something that further ties them.

In Zoro and Oden's case, I don't think this has any credibility.


For example Shanks might not have a black blade because of that reason.
There's a Zoro - Oden narrative tied through Enma and Kaido. There isn't such a Zoro - Shanks dynamic. Shanks not having a Black Blade is irrelevant.
 
If this was true, there wouldn't be a narrative tying Zoro and Oden's mastery of Enma.

Even Kaido saying there shall never again be a monster samurai like Oden is something that further ties them.

In Zoro and Oden's case, I don't think this has any credibility.



There's a Zoro - Oden narrative tied through Enma and Kaido. There isn't such a Zoro - Shanks dynamic. Shanks not having a Black Blade is irrelevant.
The implications of that narrative could however have lasting consequences through the remaining of the story, with Zoro's achievement opening a new avenue for him as a swordsman compared to Oden, and the path that will eventually allow him to overall surpass Oden as well strictly from a power level standpoint.

I don't think that Zoro doing a certain thing that Oden could not do, must prove that Zoro has surpassed Oden in every single way beyond that one particular thing. I also don't think Zoro must surpass Oden for someone to come to the realization that Zoro is a man of Oden's caliber, just earlier in his journey towards reaching his potential.
 
Zoro will master enma better then oden, but i still dont think he can fight kaido 1v1 like oden did, plus oden had another special sword that he used not only enma.
 
It's a narrative.

The narrative tying Zoro and Oden together is Enma.

Even when Zoro unleashes his Haoshoku, he marvels at how Oden was able to so easily wield Enma even while losing so much haki.

For all his prowess, Oden wasn't able to go the extra mile and make Enma a kokuto. When Zoro is able to accomplish that โ€” a feat that even at his peak, Oden could not perform โ€” he would have exceeded him.
Yeah still not seeing it. Narrative does not trump attributes. We literally see Zoroยดs weakness play out vs King. Sure one part is not being able to significantly hurt him for now (for whatever reason), partly due to Enma acting up, but the main problem has been Zoroยดs inability to land significant attacks, react to Kingยดs attacks and so forth, meaning physical speed, maneuverability, CoO and so forth.
Meanwhile Oden had none of those weaknesses.

Oden would have done away with King quickly, even without a black Enma, Zoro requires that powerup to be able to even compete (assuming black Enma is gonna happen soon).

The logical consequence thus is not Zoro surpassing Oden overall, but basically accomplishing something Oden was not able to to get to the next level (Ryuuma/Mihawk).
We donยดt even know what implications a self-blackened sword vs a black sword accomplished by someone else has in terms of combat relevance, meaning what advantage is Enma going to give over Shusui for example?

Maybe we are blowing Oden out of proportions but WB calling him a beast and something dangerous, the level of respect Kaidou shows him, Roger being excited to fight him (even before Oden growing stronger) and so forth, implies being overall far beyond high tiers, and thatยดs without a black Enma, meaning he had plenty to substitute for a lack of a black sword.
 

Cinera

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Yeah still not seeing it. Narrative does not trump attributes. We literally see Zoroยดs weakness play out vs King. Sure one part is not being able to significantly hurt him for now (for whatever reason), partly due to Enma acting up, but the main problem has been Zoroยดs inability to land significant attacks, react to Kingยดs attacks and so forth, meaning physical speed, maneuverability, CoO and so forth.
Eh, that's not how I read it.

Zoro has landed several attacks on King, they just aren't working. On panel, all of the following landed on King:
  • Rengoku Oni Giri
  • Tatsumaki
  • Shi Shishi Sonson

Off panel, Zoro said that he had hit King with a few slashes, but he just doesn't bleed:


And he also cut King's mask which is what made him berserk in the first place.


Zoro has perfectly reacted to all of King's attacks (absent Enma acting up recently), King is just overpowering him.

This isn't a lack of skill or an inability to engage with King, King's defence is just beyond Pre Haoshoku Zoro's offence, and his offence was able to overcome Zoro's defence.

The only attack King landed on Zoro without first overpowering Zoro was Tempura Udon when Enma acted up.

The only power up Zoro needs is even greater offence, so that he can overpower King's own attacks and overcome his defence. That's what Haoshoku coating is giving him.


meaning physical speed, maneuverability, CoO and so forth.
Meanwhile Oden had none of those weaknesses.
Zoro doesn't have any of those weaknesses either. Or if you believe so, show me the scans of Zoro getting outsped by King, or outmanoeuvred by King, or otherwise failing to dodge King's attacks.


Oden would have done away with King quickly, even without a black Enma, Zoro requires that powerup to be able to even compete (assuming black Enma is gonna happen soon).
Black Enma isn't happening against King. If it happens, it will be after the King fight.


The logical consequence thus is not Zoro surpassing Oden overall, but basically accomplishing something Oden was not able to to get to the next level (Ryuuma/Mihawk).
No, this is based on two wrong headcanons:
  • Zoro's other stats are deficient.
  • Zoro will forge Enma into a black blade against King.

implies being overall far beyond high tiers, and thatยดs without a black Enma, meaning he had plenty to substitute for a lack of a black sword.
Rooftop Zoro was already comparable to the strongest High Tiers.

After unlocking Haoshoku, he's now stepping into the Top Tier realm.


We donยดt even know what implications a self-blackened sword vs a black sword accomplished by someone else has in terms of combat relevance, meaning what advantage is Enma going to give over Shusui for example?
Blackening Enma would probably involve a considerably bloom in Zoro's own haki.
 
Eh, that's not how I read it.

Zoro has landed several attacks on King, they just aren't working. On panel, all of the following landed on King:
  • Rengoku Oni Giri
  • Tatsumaki
  • Shi Shishi Sonson

Off panel, Zoro said that he had hit King with a few slashes, but he just doesn't bleed:


And he also cut King's mask which is what made him berserk in the first place.


Zoro has perfectly reacted to all of King's attacks (absent Enma acting up recently), King is just overpowering him.

This isn't a lack of skill or an inability to engage with King, King's defence is just beyond Pre Haoshoku Zoro's offence, and his offence was able to overcome Zoro's defence.

The only attack King landed on Zoro without first overpowering Zoro was Tempura Udon when Enma acted up.

The only power up Zoro needs is even greater offence, so that he can overpower King's own attacks and overcome his defence. That's what Haoshoku coating is giving him.



Zoro doesn't have any of those weaknesses either. Or if you believe so, show me the scans of Zoro getting outsped by King, or outmanoeuvred by King, or otherwise failing to dodge King's attacks.



Black Enma isn't happening against King. If it happens, it will be after the King fight.



No, this is based on two wrong headcanons:
  • Zoro's other stats are deficient.
  • Zoro will forge Enma into a black blade against King.


Rooftop Zoro was already comparable to the strongest High Tiers.

After unlocking Haoshoku, he's now stepping into the Top Tier realm.



Blackening Enma would probably involve a considerably bloom in Zoro's own haki.
Couldnยดt react to it
https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece/1027-016.png

Lack of maneuverability
https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece/1027-017.png

Speed of the attack
https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece/1032-011.png

Canยดt land a significant hit, admits that landing a significant hit is the problem
https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece/1032-012.png

Tries to eliminate lack of speed and maneuverability with AoE attack, gets blocked
https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece/1032-013.png

King voluntarily (overconfidence) accepts a fight favorable for Zoro, meaning CQC
https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece/1032-014.png

Nobody is saying King is also not strong and only has the advantage in speed, maneuverability, CoO and so forth, but until King by his own choice entered a favorable fight for Zoro, this was the main issue.
Two of the three attacks Zoro landed was when King entered this fight in non-Zoan form, and one attack he landed because King wanted it to due to the explosion.

See above.

You arguing with what you think will happen and then using that as grounds to call other peopleยดs take headcanon is meaningless.
Just like King not being a worthy opponent for Zoro a few months ago.

This is all headcanon dude, you have no idea what will happen, so dismissing statements on your constructed narrative is meaningless if you want to actually discuss.

Rooftop Zoro being comparable to high tiers is disproven by his performance vs King.

"Probably" = we donยดt know.
 

Finalbeta

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It's all part of a substantial growth process that will ultimately lead to one single event



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