Current Events Why didn't other Daimyo respond to Orochi-Oden's 5 years?

#1
When people talk about what happened to Wano during the 5 years Oden came back and made a deal with Orochi/Kaido, it's important to note the other Daimyo never had a response to the Wano of this period. Oden was made to act like a buffoon, the other Daimyo were not. The truth is, we don't know if Wano got better, worse, or the status quo was merely maintained for the 5 years the deal was going on.

The narration in the chapter says that Moria invading and Oden losing everyone's respect are the only events worth nothing.

- Were any new people executed or sentenced to hard labor in the factories?
- Were any more people hit with blindness arrows?
- Did Orochi build any new factories in these 5 years? Orochi "made his move on Kuri" and that move was to build more factories there. Factories already existed in Kuri when the Roger Pirates arrived. If Orochi was making his move, this would likely break the deal with Oden which presumably stopped the construction of new factories at least in Kuri.
- Kaido and Orochi did not engage war with Wano and start subduing everyone from Daimyos to villages like Amigasa, at least under this deal. This would have definitely been pointed out with horrendous consequences.
- The Hyougoro family was targeted when Orochi and Kaido were finally ready to break the deal.

Oden's retainers, not even Daimyo themselves, resorted to violence against Shogun Orochi over a random innocent family being executed.

While Oden was absent from Wano, Orochi built factories, sentenced people to hard labor, killed an innocent family, targeted Momo when the Scabbards came after him, and many others things all across Wano. Orochi became a very hated figure people were willing to violently find a solution to.

Are the Daimyos more responsible, better tempered, and willing to allow Orochi's barbarity?

Nope. Orochi himself knows the Daimyos are infuriated and not above overthrowing him with violence. But is that what Orochi thinks or has he seen it first hand before, a Daimyo resorting to violence?

Sometime after Oden died, the Daimyos perished in a war against Orochi and Kaido when they were told to submit. Even if they knew it was hopeless, they put up a fight to the death anyway.

Oden came back to Wano, submitted to Orochi, made a secret deal that included acting like a fool for 5 years in the capital.

If things were so bad during this period, why didn't the other Daimyo do anything about it? The Scabbards wouldn't disobey and act against Oden's wishes and target Orochi on their own again. But what if factories kept being built? What if people kept being executed in the factories? What if Kaido and Oden started physically subduing the rest of non-Kuri Wano in war? To our knowledge of the events of those 5 years, no Daimyo attacked Orochi, no Daimyo was killed or imprisoned in this period. They couldn't wage war against Orochi if they were all locked behind bars or their region already subdued.

I see two possibilities:

1. The Daimyos placed their hope in Oden to act first. Oden became a buffoon and acted like Orochi's dog for 5 years. Except for Yasuie, even the Daimyo lost hope in Oden eventually. As they observed Oden during this period, surely they came to the conclusion they couldn't rely on him to do anything anymore. They should have acted without Oden, just like they waged a hopeless war on Orochi and Kaido after Oden perished.

2. The secret Oden-Orochi deal pacified the situation in Wano for 5 years. Orochi did not execute anyone. Orochi temporarily put a halt to building new factories, but it is unlikely he destroyed the old ones. Orochi and Kaido did not force the other Daimyo to submit. Wano did not continue its descent to hell during this period. It's not dreamland, but the Daimyo had no real reason to respond with violence against Orochi like the Scabbards did over some family. The Daimyo allowed temporary holder Orochi to remain in place instead of Oden inhering the Shogun position. Orochi was still very much hated for his past actions which he never apologized for, but for some reason things did not get worse to the relief of the rest of Wano. A Daimyo like Yasuie could happily enjoy Oden's weekly dancing knowing the situation in Wano was not declining and that he and Oden were ignoring the people's plight. That's despite Yasuie not knowing Oden and Orochi arranged a deal, that Oden was indeed acting to the temporary benefit of Wano.

Do you think the Daimyo acted and defied Orochi or held back during these 5 years? What was their reasoning?
 
Last edited:

Cutty Jewboy

I Can Go Lower
#2
When people talk about what happened to Wano during the 5 years Oden came back and made a deal with Orochi/Kaido, it's important to note the other Daimyo never had a response to the Wano of this period. Oden was made to act like a buffoon, the other Daimyo were not. The truth is, we don't know if Wano got better, worse, or the status quo was merely maintained for the 5 years the deal was going on.

The narration in the chapter says that Moria invading and Oden losing everyone's respect are the only events worth nothing.

- Were any new people executed or sentenced to hard labor in the factories?
- Were any more people hit with blindness arrows?
- Did Orochi build any new factories in these 5 years? Orochi "made his move on Kuri" and that move was to build more factories there. Factories already existed in Kuri when the Roger Pirates arrived. If Orochi was making his move, this would likely break the deal with Oden which presumably stopped the construction of new factories at least in Kuri.
- Kaido and Orochi did not engage war with Wano and start subduing everyone from Daimyos to villages like Amigasa, at least under this deal. This would have definitely been pointed out with horrendous consequences.
- The Hyougoro family was targeted when Orochi and Kaido were finally ready to break the deal.

Oden's retainers, not even Daimyo themselves, resorted to violence against Shogun Orochi over a random innocent family being executed.

While Oden was absent from Wano, Orochi built factories, sentenced people to hard labor, killed an innocent family, targeted Momo when the Scabbards came after him, and many others things all across Wano. Orochi became a very hated figure people were willing to violently find a solution to.

Are the Daimyos more responsible, better tempered, and willing to allow Orochi's barbarity?

Nope. Orochi himself knows the Daimyos are infuriated and not above overthrowing him with violence. But is that what Orochi thinks or has he seen it first hand before, a Daimyo resorting to violence?

Sometime after Oden died, the Daimyos perished in a war against Orochi and Kaido when they were told to submit. Even if they knew it was hopeless, they put up a fight to the death anyway.

Oden came back to Wano, submitted to Orochi, made a secret deal that included acting like a fool for 5 years in the capital.

If things were so bad during this period, why didn't the other Daimyo do anything about it? The Scabbards wouldn't disobey and act against Oden's wishes and target Orochi on their own again. But what if factories kept being built? What if people kept being executed in the factories? What if Kaido and Oden started physically subduing the rest of non-Kuri Wano in war? To our knowledge of the events of those 5 years, no Daimyo attacked Orochi, no Daimyo was killed or imprisoned in this period. They couldn't wage war against Orochi if they were all locked behind bars or their region already subdued.

I see two possibilities:

1. The Daimyos placed their hope in Oden to act first. Oden became a buffoon and acted like Orochi's dog for 5 years. Except for Yasuie, even the Daimyo lost hope in Oden eventually. As they observed Oden during this period, surely they came to the conclusion they couldn't rely on him to do anything anymore. They should have acted without Oden, just like they waged a hopeless war on Orochi and Kaido after Oden perished.

2. The secret Oden-Orochi deal pacified the situation in Wano for 5 years. Orochi did not execute anyone. Orochi temporarily put a halt to building new factories, but it is unlikely he destroyed the old ones. Orochi and Kaido did not force the other Daimyo to submit. Wano did not continue its descent to hell during this period. It's not dreamland, but the Daimyo had no real reason to respond with violence against Orochi like the Scabbards did over some family. The Daimyo allowed temporary holder Orochi to remain in place instead of Oden inhering the Shogun position. Orochi was still very much hated for his past actions which he never apologized for, but for some reason things did not get worse to the relief of the rest of Wano. A Daimyo like Yasuie could happily enjoy Oden's weekly dancing knowing the situation in Wano was not declining and that he and Oden were ignoring the people's plight. That's despite Yasuie not knowing Oden and Orochi arranged a deal, that Oden was indeed acting to the temporary benefit of Wano.

Do you think the Daimyo acted and defied Orochi or held back during these 5 years? What was their reasoning?
Evidence suggests it’s the first of the two reasons you listed - the townspeople rejoiced when Oden first returned, it stands to reason the daimyos who served under Sukiyaki also assumed his heir was there to take back what’s rightfully his. If this is the case, watching him act like a dipshit in public for half a decade probably sapped their motivation as well; if the Kozuki family wasn’t gonna defend themselves, let alone Wano overall, then who would?

To your second point, so far it seems like the quality of life in Wano, low as it was under the early days of Orochi’s reign, didn’t decrease any or much further once Oden was back and acting up...it’s easy to become complacent under a dictator so long as you don’t notice all the sleazy shit they’re doing (or it doesn’t directly affect you), so the residents of Kuri probably didn’t give a shit, and if any citizens in other parts of the country did, they probably held little faith in their daimyos to do anything about Kaido or the continuing reign of terror.

Now that Oda’s brought us into the home stretch of this flashback, it’s possible we’ll only see what happened to the daimyos pre- or post-Oden’s return when Orochi inevitably gets his own.
 
#3
Evidence suggests it’s the first of the two reasons you listed - the townspeople rejoiced when Oden first returned, it stands to reason the daimyos who served under Sukiyaki also assumed his heir was there to take back what’s rightfully his. If this is the case, watching him act like a dipshit in public for half a decade probably sapped their motivation as well; if the Kozuki family wasn’t gonna defend themselves, let alone Wano overall, then who would?

To your second point, so far it seems like the quality of life in Wano, low as it was under the early days of Orochi’s reign, didn’t decrease any or much further once Oden was back and acting up...it’s easy to become complacent under a dictator so long as you don’t notice all the sleazy shit they’re doing (or it doesn’t directly affect you), so the residents of Kuri probably didn’t give a shit, and if any citizens in other parts of the country did, they probably held little faith in their daimyos to do anything about Kaido or the continuing reign of terror.

Now that Oda’s brought us into the home stretch of this flashback, it’s possible we’ll only see what happened to the daimyos pre- or post-Oden’s return when Orochi inevitably gets his own.
Good thoughts.

My only qualm is that the story wants us to believe Oden is "The Foolish Lord", not that the 5 Daimyos are all foolish lords. Oden is rightfully criticized for twerking it for 5 years and letting Orochi get away with stealing the throne and creating a country flooded with pirates. Oden was the only Daimyo who submitted to Orochi, he bows before him when he visits the Kuri region. The other Daimyo fought a war when Orochi and Kaido told them it's time to submit, they were clearly angry at his rule and in some sense not obeying like Orochi wanted them to.

I don't think we're meant to see the other Daimyo as cowardly or as complacent. If that was the truth, they would have submitted to Orochi instead of entire clans like the Shitmotsuki getting wiped out from Wano. That is a very dedicated resistance. Maybe they did tried to fight Orochi while Oden was away, but for 5 years this rebellion stopped. The Beast Pirates only fought Moria. Kaido made his name as an invincible monster, but the Scabbards made it seem like they never fought him themselves. It must have been the other Daimyo's forces getting wiped out by Kaido. In that sense, we can believe the Daimyo were acting to get rid of Orochi but did not personally involve themselves in the battle just yet.

At the end of 5 years, everyone in Wano, including the Daimyo except for Yasuie, had lost all faith in Oden restoring this country of pirates back to its former rule under the Kozuki. We never even saw other Daimyo plead before or try to rally Oden to do the right thing. Instead of 4 lords declaring war, it could have been 5 lords. But we can only observe they had no reason to declare war in this period even after they stopped caring about Oden. They failed in their own responsibilities. Oden is the not the only unique fool here, for 5 years the other Daimyo sat on their ass and never tried to convert him to their cause.

Then again, this is all under the assumption that Wano was actively getting worse during the 5 years and a response was needed by its Daimyos against the Shogun.
 

Cutty Jewboy

I Can Go Lower
#4
Good thoughts.

My only qualm is that the story wants us to believe Oden is "The Foolish Lord", not that the 5 Daimyos are all foolish lords. Oden is rightfully criticized for twerking it for 5 years and letting Orochi get away with stealing the throne and creating a country flooded with pirates. Oden was the only Daimyo who submitted to Orochi, he bows before him when he visits the Kuri region. The other Daimyo fought a war when Orochi and Kaido told them it's time to submit, they were clearly angry at his rule and in some sense not obeying like Orochi wanted them to.

I don't think we're meant to see the other Daimyo as cowardly or as complacent. If that was the truth, they would have submitted to Orochi instead of entire clans like the Shitmotsuki getting wiped out from Wano. That is a very dedicated resistance. Maybe they did tried to fight Orochi while Oden was away, but for 5 years this rebellion stopped. The Beast Pirates only fought Moria. Kaido made his name as an invincible monster, but the Scabbards made it seem like they never fought him themselves. It must have been the other Daimyo's forces getting wiped out by Kaido. In that sense, we can believe the Daimyo were acting to get rid of Orochi but did not personally involve themselves in the battle just yet.

At the end of 5 years, everyone in Wano, including the Daimyo except for Yasuie, had lost all faith in Oden restoring this country of pirates back to its former rule under the Kozuki. We never even saw other Daimyo plead before or try to rally Oden to do the right thing. Instead of 4 lords declaring war, it could have been 5 lords. But we can only observe they had no reason to declare war in this period even after they stopped caring about Oden. They failed in their own responsibilities. Oden is the not the only unique fool here, for 5 years the other Daimyo sat on their ass and never tried to convert him to their cause.

Then again, this is all under the assumption that Wano was actively getting worse during the 5 years and a response was needed by its Daimyos against the Shogun.
The only justification I can think of for their inaction is the same reason Oda gave Oden - they didn’t openly oppose the Orochi/Kaido regime for fear of what would happen to the citizens of their regions if they rebelled. Pragmatism doesn’t have much of a place in times of war, but it’s possible they also felt that miserable living people were better than folks dying en masses for a good cause.

Either way, I agree with your overall point that the daimyos could and arguably SHOULD have done something in Oden’s stead. Moreover, the Kozuki heir himself probably should have rebelled sooner, but I’ll reserve final judgment until we find out just what Orochi told him before he started selling it on the streets.
 
#6
I interpreted as Orochi no longer did the executions and poison arrow stuff. The Hyogoro stuff was the first event in 5 years that triggered the events. Its the only thing that justifies why Oden obeyed. Orochi backed off
 
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