Speculations Yamato's "identity crisis" isn't what it seems to be

#1
Oden's journal contains a prophecy about how strong pirates will enter the New World and help take down Kaido. Yamato appears to be having an identity crisis, spouting off seemingly inconsistent lines left and right. However, Yamato has not once denied their birth name; what Yamato doesn't understand is who plays what role in the prophecy. As the story is unfolding, Yamato is actually trying to understand what's happening in the context of the prophecy, and we can understand everything they've said by stepping through chronologically with this in mind.
  1. Finding the journal: Yamato witnesses the death of Oden, and believes his family and all of his retainers are also dead. Upon finding the journal, Yamato learns that Oden was supposed to open Wano for Joyboy's arrival. Yamato begins to think of "Oden" as the one who fulfills the prophecy in the journal: a free man that helps strong pirates overcome Kaido and open Wano. Yamato thinks that they're the only one that knows this, and resolves to fulfill the prophecy and "become Oden".
  2. Meeting Ace: Yamato meets Ace, and doesn't mention becoming "Oden" once. After all, nobody needs to be "Oden" until the time of the prophecy. However, Yamato does form a close connection with Ace, and learns all about Luffy.
  3. Meeting Luffy: Yamato introduces themselves to Luffy, saying "I've been waiting for you! I'm Yamato, Kaido's son!" We're meant to think that this is "Oden" waiting for Joyboy, the one from the prophecy. However, Yamato is not sure which if any of the invading pirates is Joyboy. Instead, they seek out the one they do know: Luffy, Ace's brother. We know that Luffy is the one Yamato is waiting for from the titles of Chapters 999-1000: "The sake I brewed while waiting for you", "Straw Hat Luffy". Yamato even uses the name and title which Ace knew, in the off chance that Ace mentioned Yamato to Luffy.
  4. Attic conversation: Yamato explains to Luffy that since the Akazaya Samurai are dead, "someone has to carry on Oden's will", so they will do it. When Luffy questions this, Yamato reacts by trying to apply the prophecy: maybe Luffy is the free man that will help open Wano, or "more Oden than me".
  5. Learning that Momonosuke lives: One of the last things that Oden said before he entered the boiling oil was "it is imperative that I survive". He believes, from the prophecy, that he is the one that will guide the world to the Dawn. Yamato isn't able to reconcile this part of the prophecy until they learn that Momonosuke is alive, at which point Yamato realizes Momonosuke plays the role Oden believed was his. Yamato is willing to die for Momonosuke not because they think Momonosuke is their son, but because Momonosuke is that important.
  6. Encounter with Ulti: Luffy has now freed Yamato, reinforcing their belief that they are the free man that will aid the pirates against Kaido. Yamato says "today is the day when I become Oden". Ulti is confused by this, as this is the first she's hearing about Yamato's "identity crisis".
  7. Meeting Momonosuke: Yamato is surprised to be entrusted with Momonosuke by Luffy; why would Luffy trust Kaido's child, who he met 5 minutes ago, with the leader of the Samurai? However, Yamato remembers that they fit the role "Oden" from the prophecy, and Luffy's trust follows as a natural consequence.
  8. Protecting Momonosuke: When Yamato finally catches up to Momonosuke, they say "I used your father's name earlier, but my other name is Yamato!" From here on, Yamato uses Oden's name only in the context of opposing Kaido, because they want to fulfill the prophecy. Yamato patiently explains: "Kaido is my father... But don't worry, I hate him! I told you, I'm Oden, right?" This is also when Yamato realizes that Luffy, the one that Momonosuke brought to Wano, must be the one Oden was waiting for.
  9. Challenging Kaido: Armed with the knowledge of Luffy's role in the prophecy, Yamato accepts the role of "Oden", or the one who helps the pirates take down Kaido. "How can I call myself Oden if I don't fight for Wano?"... Oden abandoned Wano, but "Oden" is the one who will fight for it. Again, Yamato doesn't claim to literally be Oden, but is instead using the name.
Yamato is a character that has said many seemingly contradictory things. I feel that people who write them off as being a poorly written, shoehorned character are underestimating Oda, and that it's worth looking for a way to reconcile these contradictions. What I've presented here is the best I've been able to come up with yet, but I'm still missing some critical details, which I'm sure will be fleshed out once we learn more.
 
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#4
Great thread and the best analysis on Yamato's idenrification as Oden I've read so far. Sadly many people take it literally and call Yamato "mentally ill" and whatnot.

I don’t care it was executed poorly if anything. It’s sick for someone to regard themselves with the name and action of the deceased father of a child who thru hell, a CHILD
Yamato is nothing but mentally ill
 
#5
Great job with the contextual analysis.

All of those characteristics are usually what put off a lot of people (including me) resulting in either hate/being apathetic (me) towards her, which doesn't help looking at her character from the perspective that you've tried to present.

Your breakdown has already improved a lot of things about her for me.
 

Finalbeta

Science Nerd 🌌 🌍 🧬 ⚛️
#7
It's a matter of personal desire. She inspires herself to Oden so much likely because she sees in him a model she wants to imitate. And her desire to strike down her own father makes a lot of sense.
 
#8
Great job with the contextual analysis.

All of those characteristics are usually what put off a lot of people (including me) resulting in either hate/being apathetic (me) towards her, which doesn't help looking at her character from the perspective that you've tried to present.

Your breakdown has already improved a lot of things about her for me.
Thanks! People assume that "Yamato will learn to drop the Oden thing before the arc is over" but if you look at it this way, it ends automatically when Wano opens. I could even imagine a line in Oden's journal like "I am the one who will take down Kaido and open Wano", which contributes to Yamato feeling like there has to be an "Oden".
 
#13
Great thread and the best analysis on Yamato's idenrification as Oden I've read so far. Sadly many people take it literally and call Yamato "mentally ill" and whatnot.

Except that none of this is true. I don’t buy the argument that Yamatrash only thinks of herself as Loden in a symbolic way. If this was the case, she would not have said the line about Momo being her son. Either way, her behaviour in front of Momonosuke and the fact that she actually tries to LARP a dead person makes her delusional at best, a sick and deranged basement dwelling, perpetually unemployed 30 year old with nothing better to do at worst.
 
#14
a sick and deranged basement dwelling, perpetually unemployed 30 year old with nothing better to do at worst.
I don't understand these descriptions. In what regard do you expect her to be 'employed'? Do you want her to be the shogun of Kaido's Wano?

What" better" things other than contributing to Wano's freedom do you want her to do?
And basement:choppawhat:
 
#15
Except that none of this is true. I don’t buy the argument that Yamatrash only thinks of herself as Loden in a symbolic way. If this was the case, she would not have said the line about Momo being her son. Either way, her behaviour in front of Momonosuke and the fact that she actually tries to LARP a dead person makes her delusional at best, a sick and deranged basement dwelling, perpetually unemployed 30 year old with nothing better to do at worst.
Hard to be well adjusted after being imprisoned for 20 years and having Ace as your only friend.
 
#17
Great analysis.

It's still a bit mind boggling to me why Oda doesn't show or explain this in the manga. Maybe its just a cultural and translation issue?

I know a lot of people hate Yamato's 'I am Oden' thing (and certainly if you take it at face value it certainly sounds just like as if Yamato mindlessly believes she is someone else, AKA having an identity crisis.)

But like you say, i think Yamato's whole Oden thing is just the simple theme of inherited will, a reoccurring theme in One Piece that we are already familiar with. That being shouldering the burden and responsibility to completing important missions/dreams from those who came before them and were unable to complete them themselves before they died.

Oden went with Roger to Raftel, and around the world and knows some incredibly important things. After he returned from his voyage and back to Wano, Oden realizes that the world outside Wano is much bigger and different. Therefore, Oden wants to open the borders of Wano so its people can also connect with the rest of the world, so Wano is no longer an isolationist country.

But Oden was unable to fulfil that mission after dying to kaido, so he hands down his uncompleted mission to others, his retainers the Nine Red Scarrabs. And if the Nine Red Scarrabs are unable to complete this mission, then others will.

In his journal, Oden writes that a new generation of pirates will gather at Wano to open its borders (i still don't know if this is something that Oden just says and believes, or if Toki told him this because she came from the future with her time travel fruit powers and saw the future that is happening in the Wano right now with Luffy and the Worst Generation vs Kaido.)

I honestly don't think its anything that big of a deal, since Luffy and Yamato will fulfil the prophecy together by taking down Kaido and opening its borders. Maybe that's why Yamato said to Luffy : "fine, then your Oden".

However, what I find the most annoying about Oda's writing in this whole regard, is that he never bothers to explain it to us the readers. Oden went to Raftel and understood this important mission and why, Yamato read Oden's journal and understood why, Momo then read it and said he can't die. Nekomamushi and Inuarashi are said that the Dawn are waiting for them and that they cant die.

Yet Oda never bothers to explain it in the story for us the readers. WHY? And that's what's annoying me, and probably also a lot of other readers who don't like Yamato's 'Oden' stich as well.

Its the storytelling sin of "show anything, explain nothing". And i think people are just getting impatient at this point.

Because i like Yamato's character, i tend to just ignore her whole 'I'm Oden' thing until Oda himself is gonna explain it better for us the readers.

But on the other hand, i also hate the Minks and their whole 'Dawn' thing for the exact same reasons, Oda doesn't explain shit. The minks talk about this all the damn time like its the holy grail and i still don't know why its so important and why the 2 dukes can't die.

If the author doesn't explain a thing to the readers, then its not the readers fault if they don't understand or care, or in worse case detest because its constantly shoved in front of their faces. Its the author's job to do that.

Personally, i think Yamato calling herself Oden, might also because she wants to clear Oden's name. Kaido and Ororchi framed Oden and put him to death with dishonor, and only those who saw Oden's execution in person understand who the real Oden is, that he is not just as carefree and heartless as Orochi framed him to be. This also explains why Yamato was shaking Luffy while she revealed to him that she was there at Oden's funeral.

Maybe that's why Yamato sticks with the Oden thing. If she can defeat Kaido and drive him out, free Wano and its citizens from tyranny, as 'Oden'- then she can clear Oden's name and return his honor posthumously.

This is also the reason why i believe that Yamato will drop the whole 'I'm Oden' thing after Kaido's been defeated and driven out of Wano. She can then just freely join the crew as Yamato after that, because by then she will no longer need to have any use of the 'Oden' name.
 
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#19
Oden's journal contains a prophecy about how strong pirates will enter the New World and help take down Kaido. Yamato appears to be having an identity crisis, spouting off seemingly inconsistent lines left and right. However, Yamato has not once denied their birth name; what Yamato doesn't understand is who plays what role in the prophecy. As the story is unfolding, Yamato is actually trying to understand what's happening in the context of the prophecy, and we can understand everything they've said by stepping through chronologically with this in mind.
  1. Finding the journal: Yamato witnesses the death of Oden, and believes his family and all of his retainers are also dead. Upon finding the journal, Yamato learns that Oden was supposed to open Wano for Joyboy's arrival. Yamato begins to think of "Oden" as the one who fulfills the prophecy in the journal: a free man that helps strong pirates overcome Kaido and open Wano. Yamato thinks that they're the only one that knows this, and resolves to fulfill the prophecy and "become Oden".
  2. Meeting Ace: Yamato meets Ace, and doesn't mention becoming "Oden" once. After all, nobody needs to be "Oden" until the time of the prophecy. However, Yamato does form a close connection with Ace, and learns all about Luffy.
  3. Meeting Luffy: Yamato introduces themselves to Luffy, saying "I've been waiting for you! I'm Yamato, Kaido's son!" We're meant to think that this is "Oden" waiting for Joyboy, the one from the prophecy. However, Yamato is not sure which if any of the invading pirates is Joyboy. Instead, they seek out the one they do know: Luffy, Ace's brother. We know that Luffy is the one Yamato is waiting for from the titles of Chapters 999-1000: "The sake I brewed while waiting for you", "Straw Hat Luffy". Yamato even uses the name and title which Ace knew, in the off chance that Ace mentioned Yamato to Luffy.
  4. Attic conversation: Yamato explains to Luffy that since the Akazaya Samurai are dead, "someone has to carry on Oden's will", so they will do it. When Luffy questions this, Yamato reacts by trying to apply the prophecy: maybe Luffy is the free man that will help open Wano, or "more Oden than me".
  5. Learning that Momonosuke lives: One of the last things that Oden said before he entered the boiling oil was "it is imperative that I survive". He believes, from the prophecy, that he is the one that will guide the world to the Dawn. Yamato isn't able to reconcile this part of the prophecy until they learn that Momonosuke is alive, at which point Yamato realizes Momonosuke plays the role Oden believed was his. Yamato is willing to die for Momonosuke not because they think Momonosuke is their son, but because Momonosuke is that important.
  6. Encounter with Ulti: Luffy has now freed Yamato, reinforcing their belief that they are the free man that will aid the pirates against Kaido. Yamato says "today is the day when I become Oden". Ulti is confused by this, as this is the first she's hearing about Yamato's "identity crisis".
  7. Meeting Momonosuke: Yamato is surprised to be entrusted with Momonosuke by Luffy; why would Luffy trust Kaido's child, who he met 5 minutes ago, with the leader of the Samurai? However, Yamato remembers that they fit the role "Oden" from the prophecy, and Luffy's trust follows as a natural consequence.
  8. Protecting Momonosuke: When Yamato finally catches up to Momonosuke, they say "I used your father's name earlier, but my other name is Yamato!" From here on, Yamato uses Oden's name only in the context of opposing Kaido, because they want to fulfill the prophecy. Yamato patiently explains: "Kaido is my father... But don't worry, I hate him! I told you, I'm Oden, right?" This is also when Yamato realizes that Luffy, the one that Momonosuke brought to Wano, must be the one Oden was waiting for.
  9. Challenging Kaido: Armed with the knowledge that Luffy's role in the prophecy, Yamato accepts the role of "Oden", or the one who helps the pirates take down Kaido. "How can I call myself Oden if I don't fight for Wano?"... Oden abandoned Wano, but "Oden" is the one who will fight for it. Again, Yamato doesn't claim to literally be Oden, but is instead using the name.
Yamato is a character that has said many seemingly contradictory things. I feel that people who write them off as being a poorly written, shoehorned character are underestimating Oda, and that it's worth looking for a way to reconcile these contradictions. What I've presented here is the best I've been able to come up with yet, but I'm still missing some critical details, which I'm sure will be fleshed out once we learn more.

I hate Oden crap but your theory made me change my mind. I will wait and watch how plot unfolds and see whether your theory is true or not. Great write.
 
#20
Great analysis.

It's still a bit mind boggling to me why Oda doesn't show or explain this in the manga. Maybe its just a cultural and translation issue?

I know a lot of people hate Yamato's 'I am Oden' thing (and certainly if you take it at face value it certainly sounds just like as if Yamato mindlessly believes she is someone else, AKA having an identity crisis.)

But like you say, i think Yamato's whole Oden thing is just the simple theme of inherited will, a reoccurring theme in One Piece that we are already familiar with. That being shouldering the burden and responsibility to completing important missions/dreams from those who came before them and were unable to complete them themselves before they died.

Oden went with Roger to Raftel, and around the world and knows some incredibly important things. After he returned from his voyage and back to Wano, Oden realizes that the world outside Wano is much bigger and different. Therefore, Oden wants to open the borders of Wano so its people can also connect with the rest of the world, so Wano is no longer an isolationist country.

But Oden was unable to fulfil that mission after dying to kaido, so he hands down his uncompleted mission to others, his retainers the Nine Red Scarrabs. And if the Nine Red Scarrabs are unable to complete this mission, then others will.

In his journal, Oden writes that a new generation of pirates will gather at Wano to open its borders (i still don't know if this is something that Oden just says and believes, or if Toki told him this because she came from the future with her time travel fruit powers and saw the future that is happening in the Wano right now with Luffy and the Worst Generation vs Kaido.)

I honestly don't think its anything that big of a deal, since Luffy and Yamato will fulfil the prophecy together by taking down Kaido and opening its borders. Maybe that's why Yamato said to Luffy : "fine, then your Oden".

However, what I find the most annoying about Oda's writing in this whole regard, is that he never bothers to explain it to us the readers. Oden went to Raftel and understood this important mission and why, Yamato read Oden's journal and understood why, Momo then read it and said he can't die. Nekomamushi and Inuarashi are said that the Dawn are waiting for them and that they cant die.

Yet Oda never bothers to explain it in the story for us the readers. WHY? And that's what's annoying me, and probably also a lot of other readers who don't like Yamato's 'Oden' stich as well.

Its the storytelling sin of show anything, explain nothing. And i think people are just getting impatient at this point.

Because i like Yamato's character, i tend to just ignore her whole 'I'm Oden' thing until Oda himself is gonna explain it better for us the readers.

But on the other hand, i also hate the Minks and their whole 'Dawn' thing for the exact same reasons, Oda doesn't explain shit. The minks talk about this all the damn time and i still don't know why its so important and why the 2 dukes can't die.

If the author doesn't explain a thing to the readers, then its not the readers fault if they don't understand or care, or in worse case detest because its constantly shoved in front of their faces. Its the author's job to do that.

Personally, i think Yamato calling herself Oden, might also because she wants to clear Oden's name. Kaido and Ororchi framed Oden and put him to death with dishonor, and only those who saw Oden's execution in person understand who the real Oden is, that he is not just as carefree and heartless as Orochi framed him to be. This also explains why Yamato was shaking Luffy while she revealed to him that she was there at Oden's funeral.

Maybe that's why Yamato sticks with the Oden thing. If she can defeat Kaido and drive him out, free Wano and its citizens from tyranny, as 'Oden'- then she can clear Oden's name and return his honor posthumously.

This is also the reason why i believe that Yamato will drop the whole 'I'm Oden' thing after Kaido's been defeated and driven out of Wano. She can then just freely join the crew as Yamato after that, because by then she will no longer need to have any use of the 'Oden' name.
I can sympathize with you on all of this. I still think that the nature of "becoming Oden" will be revealed dramatically in the flashback, or from a line in battle from Yamato. For example, if my theory is right, we could see 8 year old Yamato reading the journal and thinking "Oden wrote that only he can open Wano... but he's dead... I'll never forgive my father for that, so I'll do it!" It would be similar to Oda trying to make us think that Robin was a traitor, until he showed us she actually saved them.

Regarding trying to clear his name, I could see this. Just last chapter Yamato said that they wanted to release the samurai onto the world, so Yamato could feel like it's better if people think that "Oden" opened Wano instead of "Kaido's Son".
Post automatically merged:

Yamato claimed to be Momo's dad, she insane and need to be put-down for good with her father!

:beckmoji::lusalty:
NGL, this is pretty weird, but I think it's supposed to be a gag. Yamato doesn't behave this way any more through the rest of the babysitting session.
 
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