Speculations Zoro's Second Confrontation With Kaido?

KiriNigiri

The Road To Harmony
#1
Introduction

In Chapter 1010, Luffy declared that he shall beat Kaido "no matter what it takes."



He further asked Zoro, and Law, to head downstairs and inform the others.



Many interpret this as the end to Zoro's confrontation with Kaido. At first glance it does seem that way. It would be a marked departure from the norm for Zoro to defy Luffy when his resolve is that strong, however, I still find that conclusion hard to accept. There is far too much in the way of unfinished business to end Zoro's confrontation with Kaido now.



Dignity in Failure

Oda devoted ample attention to the Scabbards failing to fell Kaido. Their failure — they were unable to even reopen Oden's scar — was the highlight of its own chapter.





The Scabbards were given closure in their conflict with Kaido.





With emphasis placed on their defeat.




They proceeded to entrust everything to Luffy.



Through Luffy their struggle was vindicated.



The Scabbards are ultimately side characters — the importance of all of them combined do not hold a single candle to Zor, yet their failure was treated with the utmost respect and regard. They were given closure to their conflict with Kaido. In their last effort, they received some form of recognition, acknowledgement, and even vindication.

There was a profound dignity to their failure.


Zoro's Closure

That dignity is completely absent in Zoro's performance in Chapter 1010.

Zoro has an entire character arc in Onigashima about his desire to face Kaido in combat. This character arc culminates in an earth-shattering declaration that he came to cut down Kaido.



(Said declaration teased Zoro's COC, but that is an aside).

In this goal for which he came to Onigashima, Zoro failed.

Even after he gave it his all.




He was unable to even knock Kaido off his feet, let alone cut him down.




Zoro's failure wasn't given that same dignity the Scabbards received. There was no true commendation from Kaido. Kaido did not compliment him or acknowledge the enormity of Zoro's accomplishment, despite challenging the 4 Emperors and Navy countless times, they were never able to leave a scar on him like Zoro has.



He simply said that Zoro should be content with himself with that which he did, with little fanfare for it.




Then wrote him off as a mere annoyance.



Zoro was asked to settle for a bronze medal that falls short of his true goal, and the utmost of his ability was ultimately belittled. This failure of Zoro's, that the limit of his ability could not fell Kaido, is something that he must attend to when he wakes up to be given closure on his character arc with Kaido. Zoro needs that vindication.


Enma's Closure

Enma was introduced as the sword to give Kaido his one scar. Per Kawamatsu, swords inherit the will of their previous wielders. They give strength to their comrades and enable them to destroy their enemies.



The weapons of Wano inherited the will to continue the battle with the Beast Pirates.


Oden's will was to slay Kaido.



This will was left unfulfilled at the time of Oden's death. However, long before then, Oden told us he will find a way to pass on his will.
And that his soul (will) would live on.






Zoro was bestowed Enma, and was able to tame it; a feat that, in Wano's recent history, only Kozuki Oden could perform.


Hitetsu suggested that Zoro might surpass Oden, and forge Enma into a black blade.


The will that Enma bears has been left unfulfilled. Even in Zoro's last attack that scarred Kaido, Enma wasn't given special recognition by either Zoro or Kaido. There was no indication that Zoro could only damage Kaido due to Enma, or that the attack was heavily boosted as a result of Enma. In Zoro's all-out attack, Enma had no special impact.

If this is truly the end of Zoro's battle with Kaido, then Enma's entire existence is pointless. It has not been forged into a black blade, a run on plot point in Wano comparative to Luffy's training to damage Kaido. Both were first alluded to in the same chapter, which was 937.



Luffy has fulfilled the purpose of his subplot.


Zoro has not; his process of creating a black blade tied to Enma, its will to slay Kaido has been left unrealised. For Enma's existence to be justified, Zoro should cut down Kaido with it. For Enma to be worth the panels devoted to it, Zoro must face Kaido again.


Interlude Yasuie's Declaration

At his execution, Yasuie declared that for 20 years no one has been able to fulfil Oden's will of taking Kaido's head.


This declaration was given with focus on Zoro. In as much as proclamations/prophecies go in One Piece, Zoro was the subject of that proclamation. Zoro is the one that shall fulfil Oden's will and finally take Kaido's head.

If Chapter 1010 is to be the end of Zoro's confrontation with Kaido, this scene was pointless.

Kaido's Closure

Kaido also needs to face Zoro again to get some closure of his own. He's fascinated with the way of the samurai.


However, he bears deep scars on his psyche left behind by Oden.


He despairs that never again shall a monster samurai of Oden's calibre appear before him.


However, in Roronoa Zoro. a promising samurai has stepped up to confront him.


He wields a Katana bearing Oden's presence. From their katana he can sense a strange haki. He then realises that their Katana actually belonged to Oden:





This Samurai goes on to replicate the feat only Oden performed by scarring him.


Yet, Kaido does not comment on this? He only laments that they refused to join up with him?


He does not commend them as truly worthy of the blade they wield? He does not condemn them as unworthy to bear that blade? He does not acknowledge the birth of another Samurai of Oden's calibre? He fundamentally does not recognize the samurai bearing Oden's mantle that stands before him?

Will Kaido's despair never be answered? Will his longing forever be unfulfilled?


Conclusion

As things stand, there's a lack of finality, of closure to Zoro's conflict with Kaido. Both of them have unfinished business with the other. For their sake they need to engage in battle again. If Zoro is to ultimately be defeated in combat vs Kaido, then the very least Oda can do is treat his failure with the same dignity he showed the Scabbards. Anything else would be a disservice to his character.

Yes, Luffy asked Zoro to head downstairs and leave the battle to him, but I feel like Zoro and Kaido's characters need closure to their respective plotlines/character arcs as much as Luffy needs to best Kaido in 1 vs 1 combat.

There would be no unfinished plotlines/unresolved character arcs if Luffy never shatters the legend that Kaido should always be bet on in a 1 vs 1. It would be good for Luffy's character to shatter that legend, but not shattering that legend doesn't actually detract from Luffy's character (there's the issue of Luffy having failed after promising that he will prevail, but it's possible for Oda to handle this by having Luffy "beat" Kaido, but Kaido later recovers (perhaps through his Awakening). However, if Zoro doesn't fight Kaido again, both Zoro and Kaido's characters would be lesser for it. They would be incomplete if those character arcs are never resolved.
 

Finalbeta

Law Nerd
#4
Amazing explanation, I merely needed this argumentation to come up with my conclusions:

In relation to several claims of Zoro disobeying to Luffy's orders; let me say two things:

- First of all, what happened was situational. Luffy shouting "I've got this" is merely in that Zoro was off for that moment, he never orders him to stay down or infers to solo Kaido.

- Second, if his captain was endangered, Zoro would factually attempt to save him:

 
#10
Introduction

In Chapter 1010, Luffy declared that he shall beat Kaido "no matter what it takes."



He further asked Zoro, and Law, to head downstairs and inform the others.



Many interpret this as the end to Zoro's confrontation with Kaido. At first glance it does seem that way. It would be a marked departure from the norm for Zoro to defy Luffy when his resolve is that strong, however, I still find that conclusion hard to accept. There is far too much in the way of unfinished business to end Zoro's confrontation with Kaido now.



Dignity in Failure

Oda devoted ample attention to the Scabbards failing to fell Kaido. Their failure — they were unable to even reopen Oden's scar — was the highlight of its own chapter.





The Scabbards were given closure in their conflict with Kaido.





With emphasis placed on their defeat.




They proceeded to entrust everything to Luffy.



Through Luffy their struggle was vindicated.



The Scabbards are ultimately side characters — the importance of all of them combined do not hold a single candle to Zor, yet their failure was treated with the utmost respect and regard. They were given closure to their conflict with Kaido. In their last effort, they received some form of recognition, acknowledgement, and even vindication.

There was a profound dignity to their failure.


Zoro's Closure

That dignity is completely absent in Zoro's performance in Chapter 1010.

Zoro has an entire character arc in Onigashima about his desire to face Kaido in combat. This character arc culminates in an earth-shattering declaration that he came to cut down Kaido.



(Said declaration teased Zoro's COC, but that is an aside).

In this goal for which he came to Onigashima, Zoro failed.

Even after he gave it his all.




He was unable to even knock Kaido off his feet, let alone cut him down.




Zoro's failure wasn't given that same dignity the Scabbards received. There was no true commendation from Kaido. Kaido did not compliment him or acknowledge the enormity of Zoro's accomplishment, despite challenging the 4 Emperors and Navy countless times, they were never able to leave a scar on him like Zoro has.



He simply said that Zoro should be content with himself with that which he did, with little fanfare for it.




Then wrote him off as a mere annoyance.



Zoro was asked to settle for a bronze medal that falls short of his true goal, and the utmost of his ability was ultimately belittled. This failure of Zoro's, that the limit of his ability could not fell Kaido, is something that he must attend to when he wakes up to be given closure on his character arc with Kaido. Zoro needs that vindication.


Enma's Closure

Enma was introduced as the sword to give Kaido his one scar. Per Kawamatsu, swords inherit the will of their previous wielders. They give strength to their comrades and enable them to destroy their enemies.



The weapons of Wano inherited the will to continue the battle with the Beast Pirates.


Oden's will was to slay Kaido.



This will was left unfulfilled at the time of Oden's death. However, long before then, Oden told us he will find a way to pass on his will.
And that his soul (will) would live on.






Zoro was bestowed Enma, and was able to tame it; a feat that, in Wano's recent history, only Kozuki Oden could perform.


Hitetsu suggested that Zoro might surpass Oden, and forge Enma into a black blade.


The will that Enma bears has been left unfulfilled. Even in Zoro's last attack that scarred Kaido, Enma wasn't given special recognition by either Zoro or Kaido. There was no indication that Zoro could only damage Kaido due to Enma, or that the attack was heavily boosted as a result of Enma. In Zoro's all-out attack, Enma had no special impact.

If this is truly the end of Zoro's battle with Kaido, then Enma's entire existence is pointless. It has not been forged into a black blade, a run on plot point in Wano comparative to Luffy's training to damage Kaido. Both were first alluded to in the same chapter, which was 937.



Luffy has fulfilled the purpose of his subplot.


Zoro has not; his process of creating a black blade tied to Enma, its will to slay Kaido has been left unrealised. For Enma's existence to be justified, Zoro should cut down Kaido with it. For Enma to be worth the panels devoted to it, Zoro must face Kaido again.


Interlude Yasuie's Declaration

At his execution, Yasuie declared that for 20 years no one has been able to fulfil Oden's will of taking Kaido's head.


This declaration was given with focus on Zoro. In as much as proclamations/prophecies go in One Piece, Zoro was the subject of that proclamation. Zoro is the one that shall fulfil Oden's will and finally take Kaido's head.

If Chapter 1010 is to be the end of Zoro's confrontation with Kaido, this scene was pointless.

Kaido's Closure

Kaido also needs to face Zoro again to get some closure of his own. He's fascinated with the way of the samurai.


However, he bears deep scars on his psyche left behind by Oden.


He despairs that never again shall a monster samurai of Oden's calibre appear before him.


However, in Roronoa Zoro. a promising samurai has stepped up to confront him.


He wields a Katana bearing Oden's presence. From their katana he can sense a strange haki. He then realises that their Katana actually belonged to Oden:





This Samurai goes on to replicate the feat only Oden performed by scarring him.


Yet, Kaido does not comment on this? He only laments that they refused to join up with him?


He does not commend them as truly worthy of the blade they wield? He does not condemn them as unworthy to bear that blade? He does not acknowledge the birth of another Samurai of Oden's calibre? He fundamentally does not recognize the samurai bearing Oden's mantle that stands before him?

Will Kaido's despair never be answered? Will his longing forever be unfulfilled?


Conclusion

As things stand, there's a lack of finality, of closure to Zoro's conflict with Kaido. Both of them have unfinished business with the other. For their sake they need to engage in battle again. If Zoro is to ultimately be defeated in combat vs Kaido, then the very least Oda can do is treat his failure with the same dignity he showed the Scabbards. Anything else would be a disservice to his character.

Yes, Luffy asked Zoro to head downstairs and leave the battle to him, but I feel like Zoro and Kaido's characters need closure to their respective plotlines/character arcs as much as Luffy needs to best Kaido in 1 vs 1 combat.

There would be no unfinished plotlines/unresolved character arcs if Luffy never shatters the legend that Kaido should always be bet on in a 1 vs 1. It would be good for Luffy's character to shatter that legend, but not shattering that legend doesn't actually detract from Luffy's character (there's the issue of Luffy having failed after promising that he will prevail, but it's possible for Oda to handle this by having Luffy "beat" Kaido, but Kaido later recovers (perhaps through his Awakening). However, if Zoro doesn't fight Kaido again, both Zoro and Kaido's characters would be lesser for it. They would be incomplete if those character arcs are never resolved.
The reason Zoro didn't cut his head off because Zoro hasn't been revealed to be Wano native yet. When he gets revealed to be Shimotsuki, its over.
 
#15
Zoro is definitely not done with Kaido. It's like chapter 997 again, people thought Zoro wouldn't get CoC, because Oda made it feel like a joke and very ill-definitive in chapter 997. Then 12 chapters later we see it "coming" to a conclusion of him indeed having it. The teases aren't for nothing, Zoro will kill Kaido and get the respect and hype he deserves.
 
#16
I think its best if we wait for Zoro's dialogue next chapter (if he has) so we can properly guage where he's at mentally. There are some things I fundamentally disagree with here but this is a great post. What is a great discussion of there weren't disagreements?

A lot of this imo comes with the notion that they have legitimate unfinished business with each other which i don't agree with or implicitly tying things to Zoro but not to Luffy. A lot of what you have provided actually proves why this is central to Luffy and not Zoro. Things like:

- Kaido saying he respects the samurai, but doesn't reflect the same on Zoro. Kaido has already reacted to Zoro and his prowess in his own way. He has reacted to the new scar and his CoC, I think its unfair to say that this wasn't already achieved. Zoro also technically is not a Samurai, and I think that is very cut in dry by the way Kaido has reacted to Zoro as a whole. Kaido also can't react to Zoro if he's dead from ZKK so...I'm not sure how we are supposed to get further acknowledgement if the next step is virtually killing him.


- Enma turning black by cutting Kaido was never guaranteed. All Tengu says is in Zoro's hands, he's confident he can turn it black. It actually says nothing about it happening this arc. Enma's function/role this arc has already technically played out. He did cut Kaido

- Zoro already has damaged and cut Kaido as the story presented, Zoro failing to bring Kaido down on his own was never merited as an actual storyline that needed to be resolved.

- It has been heavily conflated that Oden's will is solely within Zoro, when we know that's not true. There is this notion that because Zoro has Enma, he must be the one fully carrying Oden's will and be the one to defeat Kaido. However, outsidr of that fact, there really is nothing tying Oden and Zoro together.

- Its actually Luffy that was always given the direct Oden parallels. When Kaido was punched the first time, Oden is in the backdrop behind Luffy, as if Kaido is looking at an opponent "like" Oden and the others. Luffy is the one that avenges the Scabbards, not Zoro. Luffy is the one Yamato suggests he should "be" Oden to defeat Kaido, not Zoro. Luffy is the one who has had directly more connections with Momo, Kinemon and the majority of Wano's citizens when it comes to the notion of defeating Kaido and liberating Wano.

- Zoro's "feat" with Kaido comes off WAY more selfish, because it's him attempting tp challenge and beat the WSC. That's not say Zoro doesn't have good intentions, but Luffy isn't just there to surpass the Yonko, he's there to avenge the samurai, he's there to defeat Kaido for Momo, he's there to liberate Wano. These are all things Luffy himself has proclaimed.


So listen I totally get the "idea" that Zoro has unfinished business with Kaido, but truly this has not really been promised or set up by the story. Kaido's dialogue has to do with the scabbards failure to be the living will of Oden. Kinemon asks Luffy to carry this burden not Zoro.

The parallel of someone surpassing Kaido like Oden is entirely a parallel to Luffy, NOT to Zoro. I really hope people don't hate me for this comment. I'm not trying to actively bash Zoro. He's still my favorite character like 80% of this forum, the problem is I cannot get behind some false expectations set by the fanbase when it comes to what they expect Zoro deserves this arc.

So like I said in the beginning, let's wait and see what Zoro's mindset is like. If he listens to Luffy and says he leaves it to him, or if he tells Law to have faith in Luffy, then I think people really need to start climbing down from this hype train. Zoro is not Luffy. Zoro receives less than half of Luffy's screentime. The manga has almost always centered on Luffy being the savior of X kingdom, not Zoro. Zoro's big moment at Thriller Bark ironically was entirely centered around Luffy and giving up his dream for him. He even threw away the notion of his dream by having his goal train him to get stronger for Luffy, he begged Mihawk for this. It is just what it is.


Tldr: Zoro's merit in the plot does not supercede Luffy's. I'm sorry but it's just fact and I hope this fanbase isn't crushed by the idea that Zoro is supposed to attain a much larger growth/feat/moment against the first Yonko defeat than Luffy.

I can't wait to be called a Zoro Hater or not a true fan without actually understanding why I'm saying what I'm saying.
 
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#18
Good post. However, you are giving Zoro too much credit. There’s no need for a closure. Zoro isn’t Kaido’s main opponent. Zoro’s goal isn’t to defeat Kaido cuz he can’t that’s why his captain THE MAIN CHARACTER is there to finish Kaido off. Zoro has done his part of fighting and participating in the main event. Zoro wanted to cut Kaido and he did more than once and even left a scar which is worthy of recognition. Zoro was never meant to be the one do slice Kaido’s head off EVER nor to be the one to defeat him. You read too much into this that had you expecting more of Zoro.
 
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