His Edo tensei version is physically weaker with significantly less Chakra. He remarked that in his battle with Orochimaru, but his advanced age limited his volumes. Imagine ten or fifteen more shadow clones all casually tossing out Konoha best and most secret technique.
Meanwhile Tobirama is a cuck
Meanwhile Tobirama is a cuck
Edit tensei keeps you at your fixed peak, but it doesn’t give you a literal ocean of chakra. Techniques like the shadow clone and variants evenly split chakra and Edo Tensei does not account for that. Otherwise, Madara wouldn’t of remarked that Hashirama’s shadow clone variants were weak if they could harness the full chakra volume of the original.
For Hiruzen, this means in his elderly state he couldn’t operate with his living stamina and hat hindered the number of doubles he could effectively fight with.
For Hiruzen, this means in his elderly state he couldn’t operate with his living stamina and hat hindered the number of doubles he could effectively fight with.
Quoting you takes too much time. What I said is explaining exactly what I meant in the first post. Hiruzen’s “unlimited chakra” as an old man is still inferior to a living Hiruzen. Old age rapidly cut what he could do.
What other points? He’s the professor, any ability that doesn’t require specific blood (Uchiha/Hyuuga) he knows and has mastered.
What other points? He’s the professor, any ability that doesn’t require specific blood (Uchiha/Hyuuga) he knows and has mastered.
You’re comparing a Tobirama in his prime to an old Hiruzen. Prime Hiruzen was above prime Oonoki, his jinton especially dangerous. Above third Raikage who required advanced sage senses to react to. Tobirama isn’t catching him off guard.
He knows Tsunade’s seal. But it takes years to build up, why would he focus his dwindling chakra reserves towards that? Not practicing a technique = / = being unable to use it
He knows Tsunade’s seal. But it takes years to build up, why would he focus his dwindling chakra reserves towards that? Not practicing a technique = / = being unable to use it
“If Sarutobi was ten years younger, i’d Be dead.” - Orochimaru (Jiraiya’s equal)
“Let me be the diversion, Im the strongest here.” - Sarutobi (In a group consisting of his team, Danzo, and Tobirama)
Hiruzen before he reached his prime made that statement. Hiruzen, at 58 (ten years younger as per Orochimaru’s statement) would’ve beaten any of the Sannin without a doubt. That puts him on the level (or above) the likes of MS Itachi.
Now considering his prime is somewhere between 30 - 40, imagine how much stronger he was then? And yes, he knows all three of those jutsu. He was said to know every Konoha technique. Just because they don’t suit his battle style or fit his moral code doesn’t mean he’s unable to use them. Kishimoto specifically made that statement alongside of being known as the God orb shinobi of his era. One filled with monsters such as the Third Raikage or Muu.
Beating an ambiguously powered Izuna, who we only know is weaker than Tobirama (who is weaker than Madara) does not give him the hype needed to win. Especially when he died to the Ginkaku force, 20 Jounin shinobi.
“Let me be the diversion, Im the strongest here.” - Sarutobi (In a group consisting of his team, Danzo, and Tobirama)
Hiruzen before he reached his prime made that statement. Hiruzen, at 58 (ten years younger as per Orochimaru’s statement) would’ve beaten any of the Sannin without a doubt. That puts him on the level (or above) the likes of MS Itachi.
Now considering his prime is somewhere between 30 - 40, imagine how much stronger he was then? And yes, he knows all three of those jutsu. He was said to know every Konoha technique. Just because they don’t suit his battle style or fit his moral code doesn’t mean he’s unable to use them. Kishimoto specifically made that statement alongside of being known as the God orb shinobi of his era. One filled with monsters such as the Third Raikage or Muu.
Beating an ambiguously powered Izuna, who we only know is weaker than Tobirama (who is weaker than Madara) does not give him the hype needed to win. Especially when he died to the Ginkaku force, 20 Jounin shinobi.
I’m going Tobirama in this. Even tho Minato FTG is better, Tobirama did create it and is one of if not Top 5 fastest Shinobi ever.
While Hiruzen was tha God of Shinobi in his Prime, his Prime wasn’t with Tobirama around. So we don’t know how that hype would’ve held up then. Add on Tobirama hype of beating someone who was said to be a prodigy in tha same realm of Madara, that’s mad hype too
I’d go Tobirama to win this at high diff, due to FTG and Senju DNA
While Hiruzen was tha God of Shinobi in his Prime, his Prime wasn’t with Tobirama around. So we don’t know how that hype would’ve held up then. Add on Tobirama hype of beating someone who was said to be a prodigy in tha same realm of Madara, that’s mad hype too
I’d go Tobirama to win this at high diff, due to FTG and Senju DNA
We dont know enough about either to determine exactly how powerful they both were, with full autonomy and power - however, I would suspect Tobirama
I just can't see how Hiruzen can counter Tobirama though, it has to be said
Hiruzen's Jutsu are not in and of themselves impressive by comparison - He is very impressive in that he is incredibly strong with Taijutsu and he is impressive in his arsenal array. He can use 4 chakra natures - like Kakashi - but just on a slightly bigger scale
Tobirama by comparison:
1. is known as the man with the greatest Suiton ever. Hiruzen has had no such praise
2. He can use FTG, this kind of Jutsu is on such a level where this Jutsu alone can dominate insanely powerful guys like Ei, who, from what I've seen, is probably only slightly weaker than Hiruzen
3. Edo Tensei, if he willingly uses it, is also caused Hiruzen huge problems - so this depends on who he has access to summon
4. His Chakra volume is so immense it is only dwarfed by stronger Bijuu, Hashirama, Madara, Nagato the Otsutsukis and Naruto
5. He also has a mastery of Genjutsu, whereas Hiruzen doesn't seem to display that
I don't see hype from Iruka as a legit source of information, especially since Kishimoto retconned The Senju's to be supremely powerful.
He was only the God of Shinobi in the sense that he was more powerful than Muu, Gengetsu and Raikage No. 2 (who we know nothing about). That's impressive, but the strongest Kage were not in the same generation aside from Muu and Gengetsu (based on the fact we know fuck all about Mizu1 and Tsuchi1).
This doesn't take into account how Sarutobi compared to Hashirama, Tobirama, Reto, Shamon, 1st Raikage, Ishikawa, Byakuren etc.
I just can't see how Hiruzen can counter Tobirama though, it has to be said
Hiruzen's Jutsu are not in and of themselves impressive by comparison - He is very impressive in that he is incredibly strong with Taijutsu and he is impressive in his arsenal array. He can use 4 chakra natures - like Kakashi - but just on a slightly bigger scale
Tobirama by comparison:
1. is known as the man with the greatest Suiton ever. Hiruzen has had no such praise
2. He can use FTG, this kind of Jutsu is on such a level where this Jutsu alone can dominate insanely powerful guys like Ei, who, from what I've seen, is probably only slightly weaker than Hiruzen
3. Edo Tensei, if he willingly uses it, is also caused Hiruzen huge problems - so this depends on who he has access to summon
4. His Chakra volume is so immense it is only dwarfed by stronger Bijuu, Hashirama, Madara, Nagato the Otsutsukis and Naruto
5. He also has a mastery of Genjutsu, whereas Hiruzen doesn't seem to display that
I don't see hype from Iruka as a legit source of information, especially since Kishimoto retconned The Senju's to be supremely powerful.
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He was only the God of Shinobi in the sense that he was more powerful than Muu, Gengetsu and Raikage No. 2 (who we know nothing about). That's impressive, but the strongest Kage were not in the same generation aside from Muu and Gengetsu (based on the fact we know fuck all about Mizu1 and Tsuchi1).
This doesn't take into account how Sarutobi compared to Hashirama, Tobirama, Reto, Shamon, 1st Raikage, Ishikawa, Byakuren etc.
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Don't know, but either way, we are literally talking about a guy with lower-tailed beast tier Chakra and Suiton stronger than the 3rd Mizukage. Hiruzens feats and hype only just place him as slightly stronger than Gengetsu Hozuki, and this isn't even considering we don't just how much more impressive Tobirama's water style is, nor do we know how Hiruzen could even cope with FTG
Also as a side note, Tobirama could use all 5 chakra natures. While Hiruzen could use 4 to the same level. Tobirama is freakishly strong. Tobirama defeated Izuna Uchiha (at the time, Mangekyo user so around Itachi's level) with one hit too. Like, people forget Tobirama was nearly as strong as Hashirama
Also as a side note, Tobirama could use all 5 chakra natures. While Hiruzen could use 4 to the same level. Tobirama is freakishly strong. Tobirama defeated Izuna Uchiha (at the time, Mangekyo user so around Itachi's level) with one hit too. Like, people forget Tobirama was nearly as strong as Hashirama
Hiruzen has better taijutsu, cause in old age he fought against Orichimaru + 2 hokage zombies. That monkey staff is very powerful.
Hiruzen also was able to dispel Tobirama genjutsu.
Tobirama water style might be special, but the old man knows all leaf village jutsus. He must have mastered elemental jutsus that counter water attacks, can't remember the element that counters water.
Hiruzen also was able to dispel Tobirama genjutsu.
Tobirama water style might be special, but the old man knows all leaf village jutsus. He must have mastered elemental jutsus that counter water attacks, can't remember the element that counters water.
Tobirama oneshot Izuna with Taijutsu alone, neither of those Hokage edos' were anywhere near full power - I'm not denying Hiruzen's greatness, but in terms of power, I place Tobirama as the 3rd strongest Hokage and Hiruzen as the 5th strongest. Also, when it comes to kage, fighting Orochimaru isn't very impressive. Most kage we've seen, alive or resurrected, can shit on Orochimaru.
Yes he did, but he did that by using the Reaper Death seal - which automatically makes the fight a draw at best for Hiruzen
Pre-skip they said Orochimaru knew all the jutsu, not Hiruzen, besides, that again was nothing but hype. Water is weak to earth, but a weak Edo Tobirama matched Hiruzen's best earth style moves. Besides, as i just said, Hiruzen knew all natures except wind, Tobirama knew all natures. That's an advantage too
Yes he did, but he did that by using the Reaper Death seal - which automatically makes the fight a draw at best for Hiruzen
Pre-skip they said Orochimaru knew all the jutsu, not Hiruzen, besides, that again was nothing but hype. Water is weak to earth, but a weak Edo Tobirama matched Hiruzen's best earth style moves. Besides, as i just said, Hiruzen knew all natures except wind, Tobirama knew all natures. That's an advantage too