General & Others Oden was a shit leader and deserved to die

I agree with both sides to a certain extent.

Oden sacrificing himself is portrayed as noble and so are the other times people have done it in the series (Sanji in WCI, Nami in Arlong Park, Robin, and even Zoro at the end of Thriller Bark)

However this could have been avoided way before the deal was made


This is the panel where I think he should have acted. Roger and his boys were already there and he left because Toki told him too? Roger, Oden, and the crew wipes Kaido and Orochi within a day and stil have time to go to Raftel. Oden should have implored for Roger's help at this moment regardless of how Toki felt
I agree to an extent, although I'd actually say Oden's big mistake was not accepting the Roger Pirates help after Wano. Which is okay, characters should make mistakes

In the occasion you've posted, Oden's inner turmoil is that if he goes back to Wano, he will not be able to bring himself to leave again. He says that. There's a part of him that knows that he has an obligation to the people, and if he goes back and sees they have struggled in his absence, his sense of duty won't allow him to leave again.

Of course, the problem then is that without Oden, we don't have a Pirate King. Without a Pirate King, we don't get Luffy. Essentially the choice Oden faces is the fate of the world versus the fate of his homeland.
 
His actions directly saved the lives of at least 26,000 people. His actions indirectly saved the lives of many more for a period of five years, as there was zero guarantee that he could beat Kaido, and that his underlings could beat Kaido’s forces. Kaido was probably stronger, and probably would have won regardless. The risk of losing Wano then was unacceptable, because many more lives could have been lost at an earlier period. Knowing that, and that a wrong action could make things monumentally worse, Oden tried to save as many lives as he could. He had a difficult choice, and chose wisely.
How can you say that he chose wisely if he was executed and wano was under Kaido's control for over 20 years?

Yeah its good that he saved 26000 people, but how many of those 26k starved to death or were enslaved in Udon after he died? Oden did nothing to actually stop Kaido, he merely delayed the people's suffering for 5 years until after he died. He didn't prevent a war, he just delayed it until 20 years later where the SH alliance will have to fight a much bigger war.

Oden was shortsighted. He only thought about saving the people and didn't think what would happen as a result of his actions. It was foolish for him to believe that Kaido and Orochi would leave wano. It was foolish of him to allow Kaido to raise his forces. And it was foolish of him to try to fix all of the country's problems all by himself instead of trying to get help from his friends.

Oden's situation actually parallels that of Sanji in WCI. Where Sanji thought that he had to take on the Big mom pirates all by himself and pushed his friends away. Given that Oda portrayed Sanji as foolish when he did that, I think he means for us to see Oden as foolish in his actions as well.

Kaido admitted that Oden would have posed a serious threat to him if he attacked 5 years ago. Oden even proved this when he nearly killed kaido despite having fought for several hours against an entire army with only 10 allies by his side. Even if we completely disregard the fact that Oden had Rayleigh and Whitebeard on his side, there was a pretty good chance that Oden could have actually beat Kaido if he allied with Yasu and Hyogoro and taken on kaido when he first came back to wano
 
Call me bias idc but I really see this Oden situation very similar to Sanji in Whole Cake in which they took things upon themselves for the sake of who they love because that's just who they are. Although Sanji's situation was handled much better.

In his case, the situation with Big Mom and Germa closing wasn't one were he can just say "screw it" and fight people. Also there really one thing I thing kinda found forced and dumb with the "ultimatum" plotline with Sanji and that was Reiju "magically forgetting" to tell Sanji those handcuffs were fakes until everything went to hell.

With Oden's "ultimatum" plotline, there are multiple forced and dumb things surrounding it. (EX: Shinobu only telling the people about the situation when he's about to die instead of earlier, Wano's citizens not realizing that 100 people go missing every week, the people who were abducted not really saying anything, etc.) Oden also had many chances to stop the situation before it even started.

I think Oda hit the noble part of Oden's "ultimatum" plotline and portrayed him as a kind honorable person while also making some mistakes like he has done with Nami, Robin, Sanji, Zoro taking Luffy's pain without telling him etc. I think the real issue was with how Oda set it up. I called that this 5 year gap in the timeline was going to bring up issues. Seeing how Oda was retconning timeline errors early in the flashback it seems evident he didn't have enough time to think about how to make Oden's "ultimatum" plotline. I think this is what it really boiled up to.
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
Call me bias idc but I really see this Oden situation very similar to Sanji in Whole Cake in which they took things upon themselves for the sake of who they love because that's just who they are. Although Sanji's situation was handled much better.

In his case, the situation with Big Mom and Germa closing wasn't one were he can just say "screw it" and fight people. Also there really one thing I thing kinda found forced and dumb with the "ultimatum" plotline with Sanji and that was Reiju "magically forgetting" to tell Sanji those handcuffs were fakes until everything went to hell.

With Oden's "ultimatum" plotline, there are multiple forced and dumb things surrounding it. (EX: Shinobu only telling the people about the situation when he's about to die instead of earlier), Wano's citizens not realizing that 100 people go missing every week, the people who were adbucted not really saying anything, etc.) Oden also had many chances to stop the situation before it even started.

I think Oda hit the noble part of Oden's "ultimatum" plotline and portrayed him as a kind honorable person while also making some mistakes like he has done with Nami, Robin, Sanji, Zoro taking Luffy's pain without telling him etc. I think the real issue was with how Oda set it up. I called that this 5 year gap in the timeline was going to bring up issues. Seeing how Oda was retconning timeline errors early in the flashback it seems evident he didn't have enough time to think about how to make Oden's "ultimatum" plotline. I think this is what it really boiled up to.
how is zoro not telling luffy he took his pain a mistake ?
 
Call me bias idc but I really see this Oden situation very similar to Sanji in Whole Cake in which they took things upon themselves for the sake of who they love because that's just who they are. Although Sanji's situation was handled much better.

In his case, the situation with Big Mom and Germa closing wasn't one were he can just say "screw it" and fight people. Also there really one thing I thing kinda found forced and dumb with the "ultimatum" plotline with Sanji and that was Reiju "magically forgetting" to tell Sanji those handcuffs were fakes until everything went to hell.

With Oden's "ultimatum" plotline, there are multiple forced and dumb things surrounding it. (EX: Shinobu only telling the people about the situation when he's about to die instead of earlier), Wano's citizens not realizing that 100 people go missing every week, the people who were adbucted not really saying anything, etc.) Oden also had many chances to stop the situation before it even started.

I think Oda hit the noble part of Oden's "ultimatum" plotline and portrayed him as a kind honorable person while also making some mistakes like he has done with Nami, Robin, Sanji, Zoro taking Luffy's pain without telling him etc. I think the real issue was with how Oda set it up. I called that this 5 year gap in the timeline was going to bring up issues. Seeing how Oda was retconning timeline errors early in the flashback it seems evident he didn't have enough time to think about how to make Oden's "ultimatum" plotline. I think this is what it really boiled up to.
Oden and Sanji's situation is different. Oden had multiple chances to save Wano and was so selfish that he turned Wano into Shithole. Oden is the most selfish and brain dead character in all of manga.
 
Before Oden returned to Wano, citizens were effectively slaves, starved and executed if they refused to work in those conditions.
Four years during Oden's dancing the people of Wano were still being oppressed and were suffering, despite Oden having the strength to fight back as one of the strongest alive. "NOTHING had changed in the country"
It's revealed that "EVERYTHING WAS A LIE" . They never planned to leave Wano and people were still being taken as offerings.
Orochi has no clue what Oden is talking about as they had never honoured the agreement to begin with and were talking people all along. Oden didn't even realise that Hyoguro had been taken until he was told by Orochi himself.


Oden was a clown from beginning to end
 
I'm not saying him not telling Luffy about it is bad. I'm just asking you to think about why he wouldn't tell him. Which is because Luffy would hate to find out Zoro had to do that for him. Something Sanji also understood when he told the Risky Brothers not to say anything
not saying it's trash or anything. I'm saying it was a noble thing to do could be seen as bad under a different light
 
Yeah and you just said it was a mistake. Why ?
No I didn't I was just listing all those examples and saying some of those characters made mistakes (EX: Robin being so cold and not really telling the SHs anything) I find the Zoro situation fine
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How could it be seen as bad ?
Because Luffy would have seen it as his own failure that a crew member had to almost die because of him. This is why him, Sanji, and Robin refuse to tell Luffy to this day. It would hurt him
 
What Oden did was essentially slapping a bandaid on an amputation. Sure, he’s ‘saving’ lives (good luck with the forced labour, ad hoc executions and poisoned natural resources) but the citizens are living in subpar conditions, ruled over by a man who admitted he wants to see the country’s destruction. Why you would even allow such a person to rule is beyond me in the first place.

Essentially, Oden was faced with the Trolley Problem but took the absolute dumbest option and had the option to subvert the problem completely by calling in outside intervention. Call it pride or whatever, but if you’re too proud to ask for the help that you (and your citizens) need, you pretty much deserve what you get when you fall flat on your arse.
 

Jew D. Boy

I Can Go Lower
What Oden did was essentially slapping a bandaid on an amputation. Sure, he’s ‘saving’ lives (good luck with the forced labour, ad hoc executions and poisoned natural resources) but the citizens are living in subpar conditions, ruled over by a man who admitted he wants to see the country’s destruction. Why you would even allow such a person to rule is beyond me in the first place.

Essentially, Oden was faced with the Trolley Problem but took the absolute dumbest option and had the option to subvert the problem completely by calling in outside intervention. Call it pride or whatever, but if you’re too proud to ask for the help that you (and your citizens) need, you pretty much deserve what you get when you fall flat on your arse.
We can lock the thread now, this should be the final word on the subject.
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
No I didn't I was just listing all those examples and saying some of those characters made mistakes (EX: Robin being so cold and not really telling the SHs anything) I find the Zoro situation fine
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Because Luffy would have seen it as his own failure that a crew member had to almost die because of him. This is why him, Sanji, and Robin refuse to tell Luffy to this day. It would hurt him
Thats not bad. Its the truth. It was his own failure that one of his crew almost died saving him.
 
How can you say that he chose wisely if he was executed and wano was under Kaido's control for over 20 years?

Yeah its good that he saved 26000 people, but how many of those 26k starved to death or were enslaved in Udon after he died? Oden did nothing to actually stop Kaido, he merely delayed the people's suffering for 5 years until after he died. He didn't prevent a war, he just delayed it until 20 years later where the SH alliance will have to fight a much bigger war.

Oden was shortsighted. He only thought about saving the people and didn't think what would happen as a result of his actions. It was foolish for him to believe that Kaido and Orochi would leave wano. It was foolish of him to allow Kaido to raise his forces. And it was foolish of him to try to fix all of the country's problems all by himself instead of trying to get help from his friends.
Pretty easily, considering that he saved 26,000 lives, stopped the kidnappings, and secured peace for Wano for a duration. A scenario that would have continued had it not been for the dust up Orochi had with Hyougoro. You’re punishing him for something he had no control over. None of the stuff you mentioned about Udon or starvation happens if not for something outside his control. And in exchange for that, all he has to do is dance one time a week?

The only thing you can say about Oden is that he shouldn’t have trusted Kaido and Orochi, but even that is understandable given that Oden lives in a place that asks you to commit suicide if you impugn your honor and that the people he rolled with, Roger and Whitebeard, were honorable people. It’s what he knew, so he believed it. That was his flaw. None of that other stuff you said is even remotely accurate. “He didn’t think of the consequences of his actions,” except he did, which is why he did what he did in the first place and it worked. The stuff with Hyougoro was not his fault. “And it was foolish of him to try to fix all of the country’s problems on his own without asking his friends for help,” except the ones there were too weak to do anything and he had no way to contact any of his big shot friends because Wano is a closed country and there was zero way to communicate.
Oden's situation actually parallels that of Sanji in WCI. Where Sanji thought that he had to take on the Big mom pirates all by himself and pushed his friends away. Given that Oda portrayed Sanji as foolish when he did that, I think he means for us to see Oden as foolish in his actions as well.
This is ridiculous. Sanji’s situation and Oden’s situation were nothing alike. Oden had nobody. He had no way to contact people to help him. He had no underlings that could stand up to the strongest of the enemies under the one that he would face. He had no way to ensure the safety of an entire country other than by doing what he did. Sanji had help. He had help run right up to his face and tell him that he was going to help. Sanji had the help of a man that he had personally watched achieve miraculous victory after miraculous victory with his own eyes, and rejected that man for no reason whatsoever and beat the piss out of him for no reason, to curry the favor or an enemy that was always going to try and kill that man anyway, regardless of any deal, which Sanji knew.

It’s not even remotely comparable.
Kaido admitted that Oden would have posed a serious threat to him if he attacked 5 years ago.
Blatantly false. Kaido said that Oden would have posed a serious threat to them had he joined up with Hyougoro five years prior, due to their shortage of men. Kaido never said anything about Oden posing a threat to him.
Oden even proved this when he nearly killed kaido despite having fought for several hours against an entire army with only 10 allies by his side. Even if we completely disregard the fact that Oden had Rayleigh and Whitebeard on his side, there was a pretty good chance that Oden could have actually beat Kaido if he allied with Yasu and Hyogoro and taken on kaido when he first came back to wano
What fanfiction is that? Oden “nearly killed Kaido?” Oden slashed him while Kaido was unprotected in what looks to be his most vulnerable form, and this counts as “nearly killed Kaido?” Kaido, takes that hit and gets right back up, and then one shots Oden, regardless of whether or not his back was turned, and this counts as “nearly killed Kaido?” Stop.

And what way was he supposed to contact Rayleigh or Whitebeard? With what boat was he supposed to sail? With what snail was he supposed to call them? And in trying to contact them, he was supposed to risk even more lives and even more damage to Wano? Stop.
 
Blatantly false. Kaido said that Oden would have posed a serious threat to them had he joined up with Hyougoro five years prior, due to their shortage of men. Kaido never said anything about Oden posing a threat to him.
Yeah that's what I was referring to. My point was that Oden had a good chance of winning had he attacked 5 years ago, Idk why you are trying to argue about the semantics of my words

.
And what way was he supposed to contact Rayleigh or Whitebeard? With what boat was he supposed to sail? With what snail was he supposed to call them? And in trying to contact them, he was supposed to risk even more lives and even more damage to Wano? Stop.
one of his scabbards was a fishman, it shouldn't have been that difficult, especially since Kinemon did it. Oden could have at least tried to contact whitebeard.
What fanfiction is that? Oden “nearly killed Kaido?” Oden slashed him while Kaido was unprotected in what looks to be his most vulnerable form, and this counts as “nearly killed Kaido?” Kaido, takes that hit and gets right back up, and then one shots Oden, regardless of whether or not his back was turned, and this counts as “nearly killed Kaido?” Stop.
I wasn't referring to that attack. I was referring to Oden going for the killshot on Kaido while Kaido was laying on the ground and only not being able to execute that attack because of Higurashi

This is ridiculous. Sanji’s situation and Oden’s situation were nothing alike. Oden had nobody. He had no way to contact people to help him. He had no underlings that could stand up to the strongest of the enemies under the one that he would face. He had no way to ensure the safety of an entire country other than by doing what he did. Sanji had help. He had help run right up to his face and tell him that he was going to help. Sanji had the help of a man that he had personally watched achieve miraculous victory after miraculous victory with his own eyes, and rejected that man for no reason whatsoever and beat the piss out of him for no reason, to curry the favor or an enemy that was always going to try and kill that man anyway, regardless of any deal, which Sanji knew.

It’s not even remotely comparable.
Oden didn't even tell his wife about it.

that totally an emotionally healthy thing to do /s
 
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