Great Generals Tournament, Winners R1 - Round 2

[Elder Lee Hung]

Rules:
-Some of the Generals featured in this tournament have only hype and no feats, so just vote based on who you think would win based on whatever reasoning you feel!
-You MUST vote in the poll for your vote to count!
-Discussion is of course always welcome but keep it civil. Feel free to try and persuade each other why the General you feel is stronger overall would win.

Round 2 - Winners R1

Yo Tan Wa

-Yo Tan Wa has the same army that she brought into Western Zhao, 60,000 Mountain People + 40,000 Qin Soldiers (lead by Heki)
-Subordinate Generals: Heki, Bajio, Tajifu, Shunmen, Danto, Katari & Kitari, etc etc.

VERSUS

Ri Boku

-Has a version of the Zhao Army he brought to Shukai Plains, 100,000 including the 40K horsemen that he used against Ou Ki
-Subordinate Generals/Commanders: Ba Nan Ji, Shun Sui Ju, Kaine, Fu Tei, Earl Rai, Earl Kou, etc (NOT Gyou'Un and Chou Garyuu)

Location: Bayou Outskirts

Spoiler

Scenario: Yo Tan Wa begins on the Zhao Side. Ri Boku begins on the Qin side.
War to slay the opposing commander or force them to surrender by any means necessary. Literally any strategy or lack-there-of is allowed. If you think one of the Generals would permanently retreat, count that as a loss for that General.

The Winner of this match proceeds on in Winners, the Loser heads to the losers bracket.

Who Wins and Why?

Spoiler: Tags

@Owl Ki @Blackbeard @Shanks @Patryipe @Bullet @Dark Admiral @ShinmenTakezo @Den_Den_Mushi @Guan Yu @Dovahkiin @Greenbeard @DizzyBrows @PuckTheGreat @MarineHQ62 @NeutralWatcher

 

[Blackbeard]

Riboku with a decisive win.

mountain people are powerful and all but Riboku been fighting northern tribes for years, he was specially known for subduing the 200.000 strong Xiongnu army who are superior to the normal mountain tribes. he can definitely come up with a tactical formation like Ryuudu which sheer strength of troops alone won't be able to break / sending Bananji to attack their flanks and get the upper hand. You can refer to what Yotanwa herself said :

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

40k mounted cavalry is a ludicrous amount. There's no way Yo Tan Wa has a chance. not only are his soldiers of a lower quality, mostly, but with that kind of mobility...? Essentially, any and every flank Riboku wants to open up, he can. Hell, if he doesn't want to fight today, he can send a fourth of his cavalry to sack their camp. Wait them out, battle of attrition it.

 

[Dark Admiral]

Riboku takes this one with mid diff. Even though Yo tan wa has few superior soldiers in her ranks like Katari brothers and Bajio and Tajifu, it’s already proven in her previous battle against the Dog people that it will not help to overcome the odds. They emerged victorious in that battle but Riboku isn’t someone as simple minded as those Dog People. He can turn the battle tide on his whim with the help of those reliable Generals of his- Bannaji and Earl brothers. Also his cavalry unit gives him an unfair advantage. Someone who outsmarted Ouki is surely capable of defeating the God of Death aka Yo Tan Wa.

 

[Owl Ki]

Very interesting matchup. Honestly, I am going with a high diff victory for Yotanwa for a few reasons.


On a side note, I am going to reuse some points from a previous post I made discussing Yotanwa. Lol.

I) Firstly, the average mountain tribe warrior is just straight up superior to every other average soldier from any Chinese army. An army of 50,000 tribal warriors was able to single handedly dominate a Zhao army that was nearly double it’s size at a number of 90,000 with contemptuous ease.

Even when faced with a numerically superior mixed army of Zhao and Quanrong forces such as this (remember that Quanrong Warriors are superior to Zhao soldiers).

Spoiler

The Mountain Tribes still decimated the opposing army despite being in an exhausted state.

Spoiler

Remember that they achieved that level of slaughter while starving, exhausted, grossly outnumbered and having suffered heavy casualties. Despite all this, they still had enough troops from this army to send as reinforcements to old Enpo to take the Quanrong city.

Honestly, if one Mountain Tribal Warrior is worth two Zhao soldiers then an army of 60,000 Mountain Warriors are worth an army of 120,000 Zhao Soldiers.

Considering how the Battle of Ryuuyuu played out (50,000 Mountain Warriors + 10,000 Qin Soldiers vs 90,000 Zhao Soldiers + an unknown but large number of Quanrong), this actually sounds about right.

II) Yotanwa and her subordinates are a more powerful force than that of Riboku and his subordinates. Bajio, Katari, Kitari and Danto in particular can completely plough through nearly every Zhao General bar Bananji.

Futei and Kaine are practically non factors and at best would only defeat Shunmen or Tajifu, the two Earls at their absolute best could each equal Danto. Only Bananji alone could defeat or equal Katari, Kitari and Bajio.

Absolutely no one on Zhao’s side is capable of defeating Yotanwa herself however. She defeated Goba, an individual that could match regular Bajio blow for blow,

Spoiler

with just three swipes of her sword.

Spoiler

She is a speed demon among speed demons.

Meanwhile, Zhao’s strongest dualist in Bananji, struggled to deal with Ouhon’s speed.

Spoiler

III) Riboku’s Army is so cavalry heavy, it is actually a hindrance in this matchup.

If 40,000 (2/5) of his 100,000 army is cavalry then that means that only 60,000 (3/5) of his army comprises of infantry.

Even if we were to theoretically highball Yotanwa’s cavalry at 15,000 (1/4) then that would leave 45,000 Mountain Infantry vs 60,000 Zhao Infantry.

Remember that an army of just 50,000 Mountain Warriors can one sidedly crush a Zhao force of 90,000.

Riboku simply does not have enough infantry to hold the line against a full frontal Mountain Infantry assault.

This is not even mentioning Heki Army of 40,000 that can just split their force and guard the flanks while the Mountain Warriors tear through the Zhao Infantry like wet paper.

IV) If either side were to fight in the wooded areas then the Mountain Warriors would have the advantage here as they are better at laying ambushes and stealth than the Riboku Army.

V) The Mera Tribe Cavalry led by Katari and Kitari will be superior to any of the Zhao cavalry. They will then be backed up by Heki’s cavalry to give them some extra numbers.

What I imagine would happen in this battle is that Heki’s Army + Yotanwa’s Cavalry will guard the flanks while Yotanwa’s Infantry will smash straight through the Zhao Infantry. Yotanwa will slay Bananji in a high diff dual and every other Zhao officer will be forced to retreat or get killed by Yotanwa’s far superior subordinates.

Even if Riboku retreats into the woods behind him, that just favours the Mountain Warriors as it is a better terrain for them and it will also limit the mobility of Riboku’s own cavalry.

Yes, Riboku is a superior strategist to Yotanwa but not by a huge amount. Yotanwa was still able to completely outmaneuver Shunsuiji, Riboku’s left hand man and his greatest subordinate in terms of strategy. I would even go so far as to say that some of Riboku’s best tactics would fail specifically against the Yotanwa Army due to the unorthodox ways of the Mountain Warriors.

Not only that but the entire Yotanwa Army operate differently to how the Zhao function. Zhao (and any Chinese) armies fight as units that are part of a greater whole. Mountain Warriors fight as a collection of warriors working together, usually in amongst their own tribe.

No amount of tactics or strategy can overcome the fact that every single one of your opponents soldiers are at minimum, worth two of your own.

@Admiral Lee Hung

Edit: MangaSee images do not permanently stay on posts within this forum, so I am replacing any that are in my posts.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Very interesting matchup. Honestly, I am going with a high diff victory for Yotanwa for a few reasons.


On a side note, I am going to reuse some points from a previous post I made discussing Yotanwa. Lol.

I) Firstly, the average mountain tribe warrior is just straight up superior to every other average soldier from any Chinese army. An army of 50,000 tribal warriors was able to single handedly dominate a Zhao army that was nearly double it’s size at a number of 90,000 with contemptuous ease.

Even when faced with a numerically superior mixed army of Zhao and Quanrong forces such as this (remember that Quanrong Warriors are superior to Zhao soldiers).

Spoiler

The Mountain Tribes still decimated the opposing army despite being in an exhausted state.

Spoiler

Remember that they achieved that level of slaughter while starving, exhausted, grossly outnumbered and having suffered heavy casualties. Despite all this, they still had enough troops from this army to send as reinforcements to old Enpo to take the Quanrong city.

Honestly, if one Mountain Tribal Warrior is worth two Zhao soldiers then an army of 60,000 Mountain Warriors are worth an army of 120,000 Zhao Soldiers.

Considering how the Battle of Ryuuyuu played out (50,000 Mountain Warriors + 10,000 Qin Soldiers vs 90,000 Zhao Soldiers + an unknown but large number of Quanrong), this actually sounds about right.

II) Yotanwa and her subordinates are a more powerful force than that of Riboku and his subordinates. Bajio, Katari, Kitari and Danto in particular can completely plough through nearly every Zhao General bar Bananji.

Futei and Kaine are practically non factors and at best would only defeat Shunmen or Tajifu, the two Earls at their absolute best could each equal Danto. Only Bananji alone could defeat or equal Katari, Kitari and Bajio.

Absolutely no one on Zhao’s side is capable of defeating Yotanwa herself however. She defeated Goba, an individual that could match regular Bajio blow for blow,

Spoiler

with just three swipes of her sword.

Spoiler

She is a speed demon among speed demons.

Meanwhile, Zhao’s strongest dualist in Bananji, struggled to deal with Ouhon’s speed.

Spoiler

III) Riboku’s Army is so cavalry heavy, it is actually a hindrance in this matchup.

If 40,000 (2/5) of his 100,000 army is cavalry then that means that only 60,000 (3/5) of his army comprises of infantry.

Even if we were to theoretically highball Yotanwa’s cavalry at 15,000 (1/4) then that would leave 45,000 Mountain Infantry vs 60,000 Zhao Infantry.

Remember that an army of just 50,000 Mountain Warriors can one sidedly crush a Zhao force of 90,000.

Riboku simply does not have enough infantry to hold the line against a full frontal Mountain Infantry assault.

This is not even mentioning Heki Army of 40,000 that can just split their force and guard the flanks while the Mountain Warriors tear through the Zhao Infantry like wet paper.

IV) If either side were to fight in the wooded areas then the Mountain Warriors would have the advantage here as they are better at laying ambushes and stealth than the Riboku Army.

V) The Mera Tribe Cavalry led by Katari and Kitari will be superior to any of the Zhao cavalry. They will then be backed up by Heki’s cavalry to give them some extra numbers.

What I imagine would happen in this battle is that Heki’s Army + Yotanwa’s Cavalry will guard the flanks while Yotanwa’s Infantry will smash straight through the Zhao Infantry. Yotanwa will slay Bananji in a high diff dual and every other Zhao officer will be forced to retreat or get killed by Yotanwa’s far superior subordinates.

Even if Riboku retreats into the woods behind him, that just favours the Mountain Warriors as it is a better terrain for them and it will also limit the mobility of Riboku’s own cavalry.

Yes, Riboku is a superior strategist to Yotanwa but not by a huge amount. Yotanwa was still able to completely outmaneuver Shunsuiji, Riboku’s left hand man and his greatest subordinate in terms of strategy. I would even go so far as to say that some of Riboku’s best tactics would fail specifically against the Yotanwa Army due to the unorthodox ways of the Mountain Warriors.

Not only that but the entire Yotanwa Army operate differently to how the Zhao function. Zhao (and any Chinese) armies fight as units that are part of a greater whole. Mountain Warriors fight as a collection of warriors working together, usually in amongst their own tribe.

No amount of tactics or strategy can overcome the fact that every single one of your opponents soldiers are at minimum, worth two of your own.

@Admiral Lee Hung

The only thing I'll say is that I think you're overrating the strategic ability of Yo Tan Wa lol, she's really never shown much outside of just standard strategic ability, I certainly don't think she is on the level of Ouki or even Shun Sui Ju lol.

Her strategy for seiging Retsubi was "just send the men charging in at it as hard as possible despite the deaths that result from this"

Her strategy for the Quanrong was initially nothing special, until in the very end where she was forced to have her whole army strategically "retreat" and fight in the battle that way. Which was a good move but it doesn't change the fact that her initial strategy was just straight up average lol.

Maybe I'm forgetting about some of Yo Tan Wa's strategic showings, but I don't think she stands a change against Riboku in terms of strategy.

 

[Shanks]

YoTanWa takes this.

Riboku is definitely best strategist but YTW isn't too low comparing to Riboku and that's the only advantage he has here i think.

While YTW got super strong 60k mountain soldiers along with stronger generals as well comparing to Riboku army.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

There's no way Yo Tan Wa has a chance. not only are his soldiers of a lower quality, mostly

Riboku takes this one with mid diff.

Very interesting matchup. Honestly, I am going with a high diff victory for Yotanwa for a few reasons.


On a side note, I am going to reuse some points from a previous post I made discussing Yotanwa. Lol.

I) Firstly, the average mountain tribe warrior is just straight up superior to every other average soldier from any Chinese army. An army of 50,000 tribal warriors was able to single handedly dominate a Zhao army that was nearly double it’s size at a number of 90,000 with contemptuous ease.

Even when faced with a numerically superior mixed army of Zhao and Quanrong forces such as this (remember that Quanrong Warriors are superior to Zhao soldiers).

Spoiler

The Mountain Tribes still decimated the opposing army despite being in an exhausted state.

Spoiler

Remember that they achieved that level of slaughter while starving, exhausted, grossly outnumbered and having suffered heavy casualties. Despite all this, they still had enough troops from this army to send as reinforcements to old Enpo to take the Quanrong city.

Honestly, if one Mountain Tribal Warrior is worth two Zhao soldiers then an army of 60,000 Mountain Warriors are worth an army of 120,000 Zhao Soldiers.

Considering how the Battle of Ryuuyuu played out (50,000 Mountain Warriors + 10,000 Qin Soldiers vs 90,000 Zhao Soldiers + an unknown but large number of Quanrong), this actually sounds about right.

II) Yotanwa and her subordinates are a more powerful force than that of Riboku and his subordinates. Bajio, Katari, Kitari and Danto in particular can completely plough through nearly every Zhao General bar Bananji.

Futei and Kaine are practically non factors and at best would only defeat Shunmen or Tajifu, the two Earls at their absolute best could each equal Danto. Only Bananji alone could defeat or equal Katari, Kitari and Bajio.

Absolutely no one on Zhao’s side is capable of defeating Yotanwa herself however. She defeated Goba, an individual that could match regular Bajio blow for blow,

Spoiler

with just three swipes of her sword.

Spoiler

She is a speed demon among speed demons.

Meanwhile, Zhao’s strongest dualist in Bananji, struggled to deal with Ouhon’s speed.

Spoiler

III) Riboku’s Army is so cavalry heavy, it is actually a hindrance in this matchup.

If 40,000 (2/5) of his 100,000 army is cavalry then that means that only 60,000 (3/5) of his army comprises of infantry.

Even if we were to theoretically highball Yotanwa’s cavalry at 15,000 (1/4) then that would leave 45,000 Mountain Infantry vs 60,000 Zhao Infantry.

Remember that an army of just 50,000 Mountain Warriors can one sidedly crush a Zhao force of 90,000.

Riboku simply does not have enough infantry to hold the line against a full frontal Mountain Infantry assault.

This is not even mentioning Heki Army of 40,000 that can just split their force and guard the flanks while the Mountain Warriors tear through the Zhao Infantry like wet paper.

IV) If either side were to fight in the wooded areas then the Mountain Warriors would have the advantage here as they are better at laying ambushes and stealth than the Riboku Army.

V) The Mera Tribe Cavalry led by Katari and Kitari will be superior to any of the Zhao cavalry. They will then be backed up by Heki’s cavalry to give them some extra numbers.

What I imagine would happen in this battle is that Heki’s Army + Yotanwa’s Cavalry will guard the flanks while Yotanwa’s Infantry will smash straight through the Zhao Infantry. Yotanwa will slay Bananji in a high diff dual and every other Zhao officer will be forced to retreat or get killed by Yotanwa’s far superior subordinates.

Even if Riboku retreats into the woods behind him, that just favours the Mountain Warriors as it is a better terrain for them and it will also limit the mobility of Riboku’s own cavalry.

Yes, Riboku is a superior strategist to Yotanwa but not by a huge amount. Yotanwa was still able to completely outmaneuver Shunsuiji, Riboku’s left hand man and his greatest subordinate in terms of strategy. I would even go so far as to say that some of Riboku’s best tactics would fail specifically against the Yotanwa Army due to the unorthodox ways of the Mountain Warriors.

Not only that but the entire Yotanwa Army operate differently to how the Zhao function. Zhao (and any Chinese) armies fight as units that are part of a greater whole. Mountain Warriors fight as a collection of warriors working together, usually in amongst their own tribe.

No amount of tactics or strategy can overcome the fact that every single one of your opponents soldiers are at minimum, worth two of your own.

@Admiral Lee Hung

@Owl Ki my man, Thanks for makin this post, some were heavily underestimating The Lord of Death, going as far as to say it would be mid diff defeat and TAC ignorant self calling Mountain Tribes soldiers of lower Quality 🤦‍♂️. He certainly don't read Kingdom, that much is crsytal clear at this point.

I was also planning to make a detail post, bt couldn't because of my busy schedule.
I will once i get time, since i still think there are more points that are being overlooked by many here. YTW as a commander itself is being underestimated. And Mountain Tribes consists of many tribes, some/most with special abilities of indigenous clans, providing more versatility and options as whole to the Army.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Can someone remind me why Yo Tan Wa is considered a good strategist? I don’t recall a single good strategic showing for her. She seemed to have been strategically outplayed by Shun Sui Ju on a few occasions

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

Can someone remind me why Yo Tan Wa is considered a good strategist? I don’t recall a single good strategic showing for her. She seemed to have been strategically outplayed by Shun Sui Ju on a few occasions

I don't blame you for thinking that, it did appeared that way at times, bt it was all Yo Tan Wa big plan from start. King Freedo reveals it later on, I will get back at this, in short while.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

She seemed to have been strategically outplayed by Shun Sui Ju on a few occasions

First i am assuming by Shun Sui Ju outplaying Yo Tan Wa you mean by these two times.

Spoiler

https://yo-tan-wa.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F611296520638251008

Where Yo Tan Wa forces seems to have been sandwiched and Cornered by Shun Sui Ju forces.

For it all to make sense, first it need to be considered that Yo Tan Wa forces were at much disadvantage in that war, first simply having much less numbers in Comparison (60k+ Heki 10k) against Zhou (90k+1k + Quanrong forces(Good amount) with Quanrong soldiers being of superior quality and even match for Mountain soldiers, second disadvantage of fighting in Enemies home turf, third Heki mistakes and naivety which costed em food shortage and other problems, and so it called for extreme measures to really stand chances at Victory and Yo Tan Wa realises that, and forms such a plan.

Yes, Hara for short while makes it seems like Yo Tan Wa is completely caught up by Shun Sui Jo plan and is sandwiched btwn the forces. And her only option is to survive it out on marital skills. That is yes somewhat true.
Bt i am sayin it was still all her plan, that's why when She is sandwiched she doesn't loose sight of her plan and moves in to take the head of what they head out to.

Spoiler

https://yo-tan-wa.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F611297343283789824

Next Yo Tan Wa hoped to loose tail of Rozo n Zhou forces in the midst of darkness and by scattering her forces tribe wise(that's why YTW forces are so thin here) and deciding onto the Rendezvous point, bt they( or specifically the forces with Yo Tan Wa-

Spoiler

which again is what Yo Tan Wa wanted so others can escape

) are chased down and are corned into the Wall. Bt since it was going as per as plan, she doesn't gives in.

Spoiler

https://yo-tan-wa.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F611297916859170816

Spoiler

https://yo-tan-wa.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F611298274258894848

Spoiler

https://yo-tan-wa.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F611298837044363264

Later it is revealed, that whether it's her allies or enemies, everyone without exception has been dancing to Yo Tan Wa's Tune up to that very moment.
And You have fallen for the Lord of Death Ploy at two levels.
Taking the city was the only half the objective, half other was Quanrong King holed up in his little fort.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

Spoiler

https://yo-tan-wa.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F611298384035315712

Spoiler: Great General-RIN SHOU JO

To achieve victory while having both friend and foe alike dance in your palms...That is what it means to be a Great General.

And it is also revealed that this isn't the first time Yo tan Wa has pulled these tactics, she had previously repeated the same, and Bajio has to enter in to save her. Implying she allowed all these to happen and it was her plan all along. Tho yes they were extreme measures, bt she wasn't outsmarted by Shun Shui Ju, who again is respectable strategist.

Spoiler: Wiki source

After Kan Ki defeated Kei Sha during the Battle of Koku You Hill. Shun Sui Ju is seen disappointed at Kei Sha’s death but is optimistic in the discovery of Kan Ki’s weakness and the hidden talent of Ki Sui of Rigan.

 

[Owl Ki]

Riboku with a decisive win.

mountain people are powerful and all but Riboku been fighting northern tribes for years, he was specially known for subduing the 200.000 strong Xiongnu army who are superior to the normal mountain tribes.

To be fair, Yotanwa is comparing them not to her own faction that consists of numerous tribes but rather the individual tribes she had fought or was fighting at the time such as the Mera and the Feego, who individually would not match a Xiongnu force but united under Yotanwa, they would.

He can definitely come up with a tactical formation like Ryuudu which sheer strength of troops alone won't be able to break / sending Bananji to attack their flanks and get the upper hand.

I would actually say that the Ryuudou is exactly the kind of formation that the Mountain Warriors would overcome through sheer strength.

The Ryuudou has only ever worked for a defending army that is significantly larger than the force attacking it.

100,000 Wei Ryuudou vs 10,000 or less Qin assault. The Wei force is 10x larger.

Spoiler

40,000 Zhao Ryuudou vs 5000 Qin assault. The Zhao force is 8x larger.

Spoiler

The Ryuudou has also only ever been used to redirect the attack of a single wedge formation charge.

In my opinion, the Ryuudou cannot deal with either multiple large scale attacks simultaneously (e.g. if any combination of Yotanwa, Katari, Kitari, Danto, Bajio and even Shunmen attack in sync) or with an assault force equal or nearly equal to the defending army.

It also only works when the attacker is specifically aiming for the defender’s headquarters and also if the attackers fight as a unit.

Spoiler

What would likely happen here is that instead of a Mountain Warrior unit being split up by a clump of Zhao soldiers, a few mountain mad lads would jump straight at that clump, open the formation up and allow everyone else to slaughter some Zhao and then move on the enemy headquarters anyway.

Mountain Warriors produce individuals that lay on the ground after being hit by crossbow bolts so that they can disrupt and open up an enemy formation and charge at retreating Zhao soldiers going through a gate just to have first blood.

Spoiler

Mountain Warriors are legit mad lads on the individual level. Trying to separate them on a unit level is not going to work.

40k mounted cavalry is a ludicrous amount. There's no way Yo Tan Wa has a chance. not only are his soldiers of a lower quality, mostly, but with that kind of mobility...? Essentially, any and every flank Riboku wants to open up, he can. Hell, if he doesn't want to fight today, he can send a fourth of his cavalry to sack their camp. Wait them out, battle of attrition it.

You have either never read Kingdom at all or have never gotten past Chapter 20 of Kingdom, have you?

Riboku takes this one with mid diff. Even though Yo tan wa has few superior soldiers in her ranks like Katari brothers and Bajio and Tajifu, it’s already proven in her previous battle against the Dog people that it will not help to overcome the odds. They emerged victorious in that battle but Riboku isn’t someone as simple minded as those Dog People.

The strategic mastermind behind the actions of the Zhao forces in the Battle of Ryuuyuu was not anyone from the “simple minded Dog People” but Shunsuiji, Riboku’s left hand man and his greatest subordinate in terms of strategic prowess, who Yotanwa outright outsmarted by using herself as bait, luring the Quanrong King Rozo and his main force out and taking the relatively unguarded city right from everyone’s noses.

The mountain people overcame the odds specifically because Yotanwa is a great strategist who can come up with a workable plan quickly, under great pressure.

Someone who outsmarted Ouki is surely capable of defeating the God of Death aka Yo Tan Wa.

To be fair, he outmaneuvered Ouki due to Ouki (or anyone outside of Zhao for that matter) not even being aware of his existence.

Despite this, Ouki still correctly predicted the existence of Riboku’s Army and that his army would arrive with the intent of trapping him. He only miscalculated the speed of Riboku’s Army. Riboku basically won out on a technicality.

Besides, if we count that as Riboku outsmarting Ouki then Yotanwa has canonically already outsmarted Riboku during the Battle of Sai.

Spoiler

The only thing I'll say is that I think you're overrating the strategic ability of Yo Tan Wa lol, she's really never shown much outside of just standard strategic ability, I certainly don't think she is on the level of Ouki or even Shun Sui Ju lol.

Her strategy for seiging Retsubi was "just send the men charging in at it as hard as possible despite the deaths that result from this"

Her strategy for the Quanrong was initially nothing special, until in the very end where she was forced to have her whole army strategically "retreat" and fight in the battle that way. Which was a good move but it doesn't change the fact that her initial strategy was just straight up average lol.

Maybe I'm forgetting about some of Yo Tan Wa's strategic showings, but I don't think she stands a change against Riboku in terms of strategy.

I believe Yotanwa is being heavily underrated in this thread.

Riboku, in my rankings, would naturally be among the absolute top of the highest possible tier in my ranking list, the “Greatest Tactician” tier. Yotanwa would at minimum be in the upper end of the tier below Riboku, the “Master Tactician” tier. At best, she would be at the lower end of the same tier as Riboku.

Now one might think this naturally gives Riboku the strategic/tactical advantage over Yotanwa. However, there is a problem for Riboku here.

Riboku’s tactics and strategies are designed to deal with traditional Chinese armies or the cavalry oriented Xiongnu. They are not designed to deal with Yotanwa and her completely unorthodox army.

Got twice as many troops as her? Too bad, she still matches your army.

Got something nicely hidden and tucked away out of sight? Too bad, Yotanwa has these human bloodhounds on hand.

Spoiler

Got more archers than her? Too bad, an entire tribe’s worth of her archers can fire off five arrows at once in their opening volley.

Spoiler

Got a nicely defended headquarters up a vertical cliff?

Spoiler

Sucks to be you.

The other thing that is overlooked is Yotanwa’s organisational abilities. She took multiple armies from across an entire realm and united and organised them all into a single effective fighting force all well within her lifetime.

Yotanwa is the undisputed King of the Mountains for a reason.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

I need to reread Yo Tan Wa vs the Quanrong lol. I sort of speed read that battle because I was far more interested in Shukai Plains Lol, but I have no counter to the arguments presented by the YTW crowd.

I change my vote to Yo Tan Wa. The strength of her mountain tribes are just absurd:

And I think Yo Tan Wa, Bajio, and Danto are the three strongest fighters in this matchup lol. And let us not forget Danto’s legend quotes:

 

[Dark Admiral]

Hmm, things got quite heated up over here. I'm not downplaying Yon Tan Wa for all that matters. It's just Riboku is a tier ahead of her when it comes to strategy. The battlefield is a plain lands of Bayou so Mountain Army of Yon Tan Wa aren't gonna have chance to show their wall crawling/ running and any other Mountain related skills here. Riboku wasn't outsmarted by her in any occasion. He was never equipped with the knowledge that Qin has made an alliance with Mountain Tribe during the battle of Sanyou. Granted Yon Tan Wa is a great strategist on her own might who leads an army consisted of various mountain tribe, but Zhao forces are not to be taken lightly too. Lets review Zhao forces here; Ba Nan Ji, Shun Sui Ju, Kaine, Fu Tei, Earl Rai, Earl Kou all of them are veteran fighters who have survived countless battles and their might cannot be underestimated. Especially Ba Nan Ji, he is an experience warrior against such mountain people. I always put him on a Tier of Duke. And to think that Riboku of all people is gonna lead them against the Yon Tan Wa with the numbers advantage of 140,000 to 100,000. I think the result is obvious. My vote stays ON.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

Hmm, things got quite heated up over here. I'm not downplaying Yon Tan Wa for all that matters. It's just Riboku is a tier ahead of her when it comes to strategy. The battlefield is a plain lands of Bayou so Mountain Army of Yon Tan Wa aren't gonna have chance to show their wall crawling/ running and any other Mountain related skills here. Riboku wasn't outsmarted by her in any occasion. He was never equipped with the knowledge that Qin has made an alliance with Mountain Tribe during the battle of Sanyou. Granted Yon Tan Wa is a great strategist on her own might who leads an army consisted of various mountain tribe, but Zhao forces are not to be taken lightly too. Lets review Zhao forces here; Ba Nan Ji, Shun Sui Ju, Kaine, Fu Tei, Earl Rai, Earl Kou all of them are veteran fighters who have survived countless battles and their might cannot be underestimated. Especially Ba Nan Ji, he is an experience warrior against such mountain people. I always put him on a Tier of Duke. And to think that Riboku of all people is gonna lead them against the Yon Tan Wa with the numbers advantage of 140,000 to 100,000. I think the result is obvious. My vote stays ON.

Has a version of the Zhao Army he brought to Shukai Plains, 100,000 including the 40K horsemen that he used against Ou Ki

Both got 100,000.

Yes Indeed Riboku as Strategist is obviously better than Yo Tan Wa, bt as a leader whole, she makes up for that by her leading skills and secures Victory with superior Mountain forces and Bajio.

For eg, When she is completely cornered into an impossible situation to escape from, surrounded by 100x times numbers or maybe more, and her people are all exhausted and had made peace with Death, she is able to completely turn that situation arround, that ability is unmatchable in itself. When troops are able to turn impossible situations like this completely arround, there isn't much war tactics are gonna achieve like @Owl Ki mentioned.
Bajio alone would be unstoppable in the war, like he was in Ryouyou battle.


Those fast Cavalry only served one purpose, makin Ouki estimate wrong and getting cornered eventually, bt that doesn't much benefit here. It was suprise factor, Ouki wasn't aware of Riboku being there. Like Qin got better of Riboku later on during Coalition arc.

So not only Riboku forces are Inferior, even inferior than Ryouyou (Zhou+ Quanrong), the number and home turf advantage isn't also there. Neither he got strong Generals bar Banaji, and who is easily equivalent to Rozo. And Danto+ Heki took Rozo out. And so there is no counter to Bajio, Tajifu, Katari, Kitari, Shunmen(maybe Futie) and Yo tan Wa herself.

Houken also isn't here, who always turns the situation arround when Riboku is cornered. He was one man force, like Bajio is for Yo Tan Wa, but better.
Since it was Riboku + Houken that took out Ouki.

I believe if Riboku plan the battle firsthand like in favoured location with Strong Generals( like they did with Xiangnu tribes), with strong Generals and had Quanrong forces instead. He would have secured victory. Now i see Yo Tan Wa winning with High difficulty or maybe less.

 

[Dark Admiral]

Both got 100,000.

Yes Indeed Riboku as Strategist is obviously better than Yo Tan Wa, bt as a leader whole, she makes up for that by her leading skills and secures Victory with superior Mountain forces and Bajio.

For eg, When she is completely cornered into an impossible situation to escape from, surrounded by 100x times numbers or maybe more, and her people are all exhausted and had made peace with Death, she is able to completely turn that situation arround, that ability is unmatchable in itself. When troops are able to turn impossible situations like this completely arround, there isn't much war tactics are gonna achieve like @Owl Ki mentioned.
Bajio alone would be unstoppable in the war, like he was in Ryouyou battle.


Those fast Cavalry only served one purpose, makin Ouki estimate wrong and getting cornered eventually, bt that doesn't much benefit here. It was suprise factor, Ouki wasn't aware of Riboku being there. Like Qin got better of Riboku later on during Coalition arc.

So not only Riboku forces are Inferior, even inferior than Ryouyou (Zhou+ Quanrong), the number and home turf advantage isn't also there. Neither he got strong Generals bar Banaji, and who is easily equivalent to Rozo. And Danto+ Heki took Rozo out. And so there is no counter to Bajio, Tajifu, Katari, Kitari, Shunmen(maybe Futie) and Yo tan Wa herself.

Houken also isn't here, who always turns the situation arround when Riboku is cornered. He was one man force, like Bajio is for Yo Tan Wa, but better.
Since it was Riboku + Houken that took out Ouki.

I believe if Riboku plan the battle firsthand like in favoured location with Strong Generals( like they did with Xiangnu tribes), with strong Generals and had Quanrong forces instead. He would have secured victory. Now i see Yo Tan Wa winning with High difficulty or maybe less.

Ok now I see the point you’re all making. I thought it was 100k army plus 40k cavalry.. lol. So, NO Riboku isn’t waking out of this alive if the numbers are not in his favours. I change my vote to Mountain God..!!

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Yo Tan Wa just might actually have a chance at winning this entire tournament lol. There are very few generals here who would probably beat her in open war lol.

 

[Bullet]

Ytw even has the king slayer Heki on his side Riboku doesn't stand a chance.

 

[Owl Ki]

Yo Tan Wa just might actually have a chance at winning this entire tournament lol. There are very few generals here who would probably beat her in open war lol.

I would not be surprised if she does win. Yotanwa herself is a great tactician and one of the strongest dualists in the manga. Her numerous subordinates are all powerful dualists and her entire army is simply overpowered.

All these form a winning combo.

The armies I expect to do best are Yotanwa and her army of mad lads, Great Heaven Renpa and his Four Heavenly Chads, Ousen and his ever growing army of nakama and last but certainly not least, Great Heaven Rinshoujou and his manimals.


While we are still on Yotanwa’s Army then there is one other advantage that the Yotanwa Army possesses over most other armies that has not yet been mentioned by anyone thus far in this tournament.

An overwhelming dread factor.

Mountain Warriors, through their personal strength and sheer brutality, inspire fear and terror into the enemy to the point that they can demoralise opposing armies.

Such as when 300 Mountain Warriors drove off and routed a supposedly several thousand Jin Army

Spoiler

As well as the Battle of Retsubi where Yotanwa crushed the morale of the Zhao defenders.

Spoiler

Demoralising the enemy is the quickest way to defeat them for if one’s opponent has no will to fight then they simply won’t.

Edit: MangaSee images do not permanently stay on posts within this forum, so I am replacing any that are in my posts.