General & Others Wano and WCI: The disappointment is seeping in.

#1
Take this thread with a grain of salt since its extremely subjective of course and also my opinion can change like the moment one good chapter comes out.

After the recent string of what I would call MEHH chapters of Wano, I think I should address one of my issues with Wano and how they are different with my issues with WCI. I'll also provide what I think Oda is trying to do by making the story like this but then again? I still don't like what he's doing so I don't care.

Wano is suffering from a big ol case of rushed conclusions. Almost everything from plot points to action scenes to character arcs are set up relatively well and then dragged out for a number of chapters and then QUICKLY concluded with barely any carthasis to be had. A few examples are, Ashura douji's reluctance to join the alliance is dragged out for so many chapters being given a few panels per chapter and then when we first get actual insight into Ashura's past its about there pages and then one page later he's fully on board with the plan. Komurasaki's identity is built up for multiple chapters and the moment she meets Zoro, she spills the beans instantly with no clear story prompting or anything. Denjiro's identity is the same. Zoro wants Shusui back for multiple chapters and after two pages of conversation, he decides to trade Enma for it and thats the end of that. Oden cut Kaido and it's built up to be a monstrous feat and yet the actual fight depicts this as relatively easy after two pages of Oden actually fighting kaido himself. Luffy has Nidai Kitetsu a cursed blade which he stole and Zoro wants, then it just ends up back where it was and Zoro barely cares. Big mom loses her memory and attacks Udon and then gets boned on the head and caputred in one chapter. Big mom and kaido have been threatening to kill each other and after one chapter of a clash, they become friends OFF SCREEN. Chapter 973 rushing through the conclusion of this Oden flashback. I can go on and on, you get the picture.

WCI on the other hand suffered from false plot points. Multiple plot points were literally dropped as ether not being real or actually having much less stakes than they were advertised with. The exploding hand cuffs and threat to Zeff weren't really real. The intelligence network of the bug mom pirates wasn't that efficient. The cohesiveness of the family was much less than implied. Judge was dumber than initially implied. Sanji did in fact need germa and their tech to be survive. Luffy didn't actually surpass Katakuri like he said he would. The strawhats didn't actually get blown up or take any damage at the end of the arc. A sweet general smoothie isn't actually that big a deal. You see where this is going.

Now what I can say Oda was doing for both arcs is this. Wano is written as a Kabuki play and a characteristic of Kabuki plays is that the endings of these plays are EXTREMELY rushed. Like the actual endings of these plays that tie up loose ends and such can be done in less than 5% of the runtime of the whole play so it's a characteristic that rushed conclusions fit into this style. I still don't like it of course, but maybe that's what Oda is going for. With WCI the theme was fairy tales and old fairy tales, especially Grimm fairy tales were characterised by one thing being another thing completely. The old lady in the Candy house turns out to want to eat Hansel and Gretel. That type of thing. Maybe this is what Oda was going for. Again I still don't like it.

At this point for Wano, I don't believe Oda is going to break this narrative style. He has written it into everything for the last 65 chapters of the arc and I believe he want stop. And I still won't like it.
 

KiriNigiri

The Road To Harmony
#4
The problem with comparing Wano's pacing with real Kabuki plays is that the story starts slow but gradually speeds up. Wano, it's more like plot A starts slow then goes fast, plot B goes slow and ends slow, plot C starts fast then goes slow, yaddyadda.

Using the 2 acts which finished, Act 1 was slowly paced from the beginning towards when Kaido showed up, then it ended abruptly. However, Act 1 was just an introductory point, not dwelling on to many ongoing threads.

Act 2 was a little more complicated, the Act itself was pretty slow paced in many instances, but plot points would be rushed. One in particular is Zoro's whole Shusui subplot which went on for chapters, only to be disposed of. However, other times, we had Linlin's whole story which had her and the others take a while to arrive at their destination, but even ample time was dedicated for when they arrived. But then you have the reveal of Kiku's nature, which was hinted at throughout the arc, but given a passing glance.

Even now, I do not think the Kyoshiro/Denjiro reveal was poorly handled. We were sprinkled many nuggets along the way concerning his identity, and when it was time to get to it, we were confirmed on it. That simple.

With how much variance there are in these resolutions, I don't think this is a case of intentional Kabuki play nods but Oda genuinely placing more importance on certain plot points over others. It was imperative Linlin's and Kyoshiro's plotlines get fleshed out over some others because Oda might've deemed them more important. And given some implications as to what may happen with Kyoshiro, and what Linlin's plot led to, I can see why.
 
#6
Even now, I do not think the Kyoshiro/Denjiro reveal was poorly handled. We were sprinkled many nuggets along the way concerning his identity, and when it was time to get to it, we were confirmed on it. That simple.
But this isy problem. All theseems plot points are set up for multiple chapters like the Kyoshiro business is set up for multiple chapters. But then it gets resolved in FOUR PAGES with no emotional weight behind it. Like it's no the scabbards in the so try finding out about this, it's not kyoshiro doing something unexpected in present time which requires us to see this flashback to understand him. It's not Hiyori tempering her meeting with Kyoshiro when there's something happening in the present story. It's just four pages attached to the end of the flashback where even things like kyoshiro's turn was off screened and we are left just saying "Okay, I guess thats who he is".

Thats a rushed conclusion, when things are happening so fast that the story doesn't even care to pass any emotional stakes along. It's like Big mom, fights Luffy, gets her memories back, gets captured, gets taken to Onigashima in the span of one chapter and those are THREE plot points having been resolved in one chapter after being set up for multiple chapters
 

KiriNigiri

The Road To Harmony
#7
But this isy problem. All theseems plot points are set up for multiple chapters like the Kyoshiro business is set up for multiple chapters. But then it gets resolved in FOUR PAGES with no emotional weight behind it. Like it's no the scabbards in the so try finding out about this, it's not kyoshiro doing something unexpected in present time which requires us to see this flashback to understand him. It's not Hiyori tempering her meeting with Kyoshiro when there's something happening in the present story. It's just four pages attached to the end of the flashback where even things like kyoshiro's turn was off screened and we are left just saying "Okay, I guess thats who he is".

Thats a rushed conclusion, when things are happening so fast that the story doesn't even care to pass any emotional stakes along. It's like Big mom, fights Luffy, gets her memories back, gets captured, gets taken to Onigashima in the span of one chapter and those are THREE plot points having been resolved in one chapter after being set up for multiple chapters
You seem to be under the impression that Denjiro's/Kyoshiro's plot line is finished. It's not. Second, Linlin's whole deal was just a plot device which led her towards meeting and teaming up with Kaido. Like Kyoshiro, Oda has bigger plans for her later down the line. You can criticize how convenient her amnesia plot was, but it was not intended as the payoff to her arc.

I'd prefer waiting to see how these bigger plots conclude. Kyoshiro's reveal is less the pay off like you claim, and more a loose end Oda felt like tying up because the reveal was too obvious to dedicate a whole chapter to. That doesn't mean whatever is in store for Kyoshiro won't be worth it in the end.
 

Jew D. Boy

I Can Go Lower
#8
For all its flaws so far, Wano has unquestionably been leaps and bounds better than WCI. The latter wasn’t salient to the story at all and was clunky from start to that awful finish. I just did a whole bit about this particular subject in the Unpopular Opinions thread, so I’d rather not rehash it right here; suffice it to say, anything that happened in Linlin’s territory either wasn’t necessary or could have reasonably gone down in Wano.
 
#9
One of my biggest problems with WCI was definitely the exploding handcuffs, it was the literal definition of disappointing. Like, anything would've been better than them just being fakes, and don't even get me started on the wedding cake mess lol. But I have faith that Oda will become Goda again during Onigashima
:suresure: when sanji vs king was a thing
 
#10
One of my biggest problems with WCI was definitely the exploding handcuffs, it was the literal definition of disappointing. Like, anything would've been better than them just being fakes, and don't even get me started on the wedding cake mess lol. But I have faith that Oda will become Goda again during Onigashima
Lmfao Lion my guy, I didn't know you were a Goda fan.
 
#14
my opinion can change like the moment one good chapter comes out.
That means that you never had an opinion in first place, just reaction. Opinions cannot be changed by one so called "good chapters" since they are created by many chapters in the span of the story, if 95% of it is negative and only 5% positive, that means you've already made up your mind about it since 95>5. You can't change ocean levels by one drop of water, just like you can't change an entire arc by one good chapter–which will be subjective anyway.
Wano is suffering from a big ol case of rushed conclusions. Almost everything from plot points to action scenes to character arcs are set up relatively well and then dragged out for a number of chapters and then QUICKLY concluded with barely any carthasis to be had. A few examples are, Ashura douji's reluctance to join the alliance is dragged out for so many chapters being given a few panels per chapter and then when we first get actual insight into Ashura's past its about there pages and then one page later he's fully on board with the plan. Komurasaki's identity is built up for multiple chapters and the moment she meets Zoro, she spills the beans instantly with no clear story prompting or anything. Denjiro's identity is the same. Zoro wants Shusui back for multiple chapters and after two pages of conversation, he decides to trade Enma for it and thats the end of that. Oden cut Kaido and it's built up to be a monstrous feat and yet the actual fight depicts this as relatively easy after two pages of Oden actually fighting kaido himself. Luffy has Nidai Kitetsu a cursed blade which he stole and Zoro wants, then it just ends up back where it was and Zoro barely cares. Big mom loses her memory and attacks Udon and then gets boned on the head and caputred in one chapter. Big mom and kaido have been threatening to kill each other and after one chapter of a clash, they become friends OFF SCREEN. Chapter 973 rushing through the conclusion of this Oden flashback. I can go on and on, you get the picture.
That's simply called bad writing, although to be frank some of the things you described might be solved and addressed later, but it will not change the overall result.

WCI on the other hand suffered from false plot points. Multiple plot points were literally dropped as ether not being real or actually having much less stakes than they were advertised with. The exploding hand cuffs and threat to Zeff weren't really real. The intelligence network of the bug mom pirates wasn't that efficient. The cohesiveness of the family was much less than implied. Judge was dumber than initially implied. Luffy didn't actually surpass Katakuri like he said he would. The strawhats didn't actually get blown up or take any damage at the end of the arc. A sweet general smoothie isn't actually that big a deal. You see where this is going.
I agree, but those weren't the only problems with WCI!
Sanji did in fact need germa and their tech to be survive.
Not true! The Germa tech was used as reason for the Germa conflict to exist. Other than that, Oda could have gone on a different direction–and to be honest it would have been much better than the Germa tech BS.
 

Lion of Olympus

The Prince of Power
#17
:suresure: when sanji vs king was a thing
Technically, Lanjino did fight King, twice, but go exposed as a fraud instead. :gokulaugh:

@Lion of Olympus is still salty even today. :milaugh:
Sanji vs King did happen, and he embarrassed him just like I said he would. Plus, Queen has better feats anyway :goyea:
Lmfao Lion my guy, I didn't know you were a Goda fan.
I only like him whenever Sanji gets good feats, any other time Oda’s trash
 
#19
Sanji vs King did happen, and he embarrassed him just like I said he would. Plus, Queen has better feats anyway :goyea:

I only like him whenever Sanji gets good feats, any other time Oda’s trash
:risicheck::risitameh:

*Sanji vs King and Queen*
Out of curiosity, mate, if the anime eventually depicts the Cook getting thrown around by King instead of the heroics many members of Cook FC imagine Cook's effort to help out Marco, will it change your general idea about the fight?
 
#20
Imo Oda's #1 should have been writing a good defeat for Kaido and Big Mom, the antagonists he literally spent a decade hyping. Then build the plot around that instead of the opposite.

Kaido and Big Mom's fights are the most essential events in wano, the finale of the arc. You could honestly rush everything else and so long as you deliver on those fights, this arc could have been a 7 or 8/10. But it seems like Oda wanted to focus on everything but what was truly essential.

Oda had to off-screen 95% of Kid and Law vs Big Mom because he didn't know how they could deal with Linlin's ACoC, and so he decided to skip over it entirely to just avoid dealing with this issue.
Oda had to fucking murder the tension of Luffy vs Kaido by doing back to back defeats and power ups because he couldn't figure out any other way for Luffy to beat kaido 1v1.

And I feel like this could have been handled so easily. Just simply bring back rayleigh, and have him teach Luffy, Law, and Kid advanced haki before the war. Luffy goes into onigashima able to fight on par with Kaido, Kid and Law can 2v1 LInlin without Oda making Linlin look weak and incompetent.
 
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