Chapter Discussion Does Shin finally reached Duke Hyou level?

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

So in the newest chapter of Kingdom (Chap 717), Riboku has been comparing Shin to the likes of Duke Hyou due to the similar instinctual maneuvering movement that Duke did (finding a place to start a fire and stuff).

Because of that alone, that makes me thinks that Shin might has finally reach or even surpass Duke Hyou. So I will divide into two categories here, Strength and Instinct.

Strength wise: I'd say that Shin lad is absolutely strong right now, perhaps top 5 strongest fighters of Qin. His performance against Houken definitely puts him above Duke for me. Barely but still stronger overall.

Instinct wise: Since Duke Hyou's Instinct stat is 100 in the databook, and if Shin's Instinct is indeed comparable to Duke Hyou according to Riboku, we can at least assume that Shin's Instinct is somewhere between 97 - 100. 99 is probably the safest bet for now.

Conclusion: Shin has reached/surpassed Duke Hyou in strength for me, while Shin still need to train on his Instinct a bit more. Maybe Shin will reach/surpass Duke Hyou's Instinct after the Zhao Conquest or when Shin finally uses Duke's shield that is stored in his garage for like what? 7 years or so since the Coalition War? *Sad Rinko's sword noises*

What do you guys think?

@TheKnightOfTheSea @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung @Owl Ki @RayanOO @Jailer @centurion @Da evil Who @Patryipe @Nidai_Kitetsu @Haoku @Desolate Smaug @Luffy is the mc @Topi Jerami @Blackbeard @Arara @MarineHQ62 @Bepo @God Buggy @kom5 @Monet @Phoenix @Nel-Zel fiasco @Dark Admiral @Greenbeard @Peroroncino @Yo Tan Wa @Thururu @Great General Kanki @Bullet @Red Admiral @Koro @Ninjashadow0209 @M944 @Nibel @Xlaw @Blue @Ponelglyph @Zo0oL SaN @Reign @RecoomeBoom @Puki @NirOU @Little Wing @JEA @Mr. Bushido @Den_Den_Mushi and any other folks that I forgot to mention cuz my memory is that bad lol.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

Not even close as a General.​

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

Not even close as a General.​

 

[Da evil Who]

That line from Riboku felt very forced to me tbh.

It's not even close to being believable.

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

That line from Riboku felt very forced to me tbh.

It's not even close to being believable.

Completely agree.

I think Hara missed an opportunity in the Zhao Invasion Arc to have Gyou'un(a fellow instinctual general and someone who may have fought directly against the Duke) make a comparison.

Or he could have had one of the more minor Zhao generals like the Dumpling guy say something like "You're warfare... it almost reminds me of the Duke who fell at the bushin's hand" earlier in the story.

On topic, I think Shin will need to refine his instinct through much more experience. This is pretty much the first time Shin has fought this way. Once Shin finally becomes a Great General, I can see him reaching Duke Hyou level, but he lacks the Duke's experience.

One thing that I noticed Shin will have that the Duke lacked is that Shin has a bunch of tough subordinates.

 

[Dragomir]

No, not yet. He doesn't have enough of the instinct feats imo. We need to see a campaign where the HSU is predominantly led by Shin's instincts as opposed to Ten's strategies before we can say he's on the Duke's level. Right now, Ten's strategies are the main component of HSU's combat while Shin's instincts are supplementary. It needs to be the other way around if Shin is to be Duke Hyou's level as a general.

 

[Da evil Who]

On topic, I think Shin will need to refine his instinct through much more experience. This is pretty much the first time Shin has fought this way. Once Shin finally becomes a Great General, I can see him reaching Duke Hyou level, but he lacks the Duke's experience.

Hara just needs to show us Shin's thought process as he's looking for specific things around the battle field, and then after that you can tell us it's instinct, with it resulting in a mix of success and failures.

And then as time goes on Hara can decide to make it vague, as he did for this previous chapter, because we at least have an understanding of the process and actually saw Shin's progress.

But as it is right now, it feels like something out of a video game, "press X and Y to activate SUPER INSTINCTS"

 

[Dragomir]

That line from Riboku felt very forced to me tbh.

It's not even close to being believable.

Completely agree.

I think Hara missed an opportunity in the Zhao Invasion Arc to have Gyou'un(a fellow instinctual general and someone who may have fought directly against the Duke) make a comparison.

Or he could have had one of the more minor Zhao generals like the Dumpling guy say something like "You're warfare... it almost reminds me of the Duke who fell at the bushin's hand" earlier in the story.

Eh, I disagree. Riboku may not be an instinctual general but he has fought Duke Hyou in the past so when it comes to making direct comparisons in combat about who you're going up against, Riboku is apt to make such a comparison. He literally fought Duke Hyou so he knows what he's talking about when he says that line.

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

Eh, I disagree. Riboku may not be an instinctual general but he has fought Duke Hyou in the past so when it comes to making direct comparisons in combat about who you're going up against, Riboku is apt to make such a comparison. He literally fought Duke Hyou so he knows what he's talking about when he says that line.

Fair point but it still feels forced that Riboku makes the comparison in the exact same chapter where Shin starts talking about starting a "blaze" and "fires", literally copping lines from the Duke lol, and this is the first time Shin's talked like that iirc. It would feel more natural imo, if Riboku made the comparison a few chapters after Shin started doing the instinctual stuff(

 

[Da evil Who]

Eh, I disagree. Riboku may not be an instinctual general but he has fought Duke Hyou in the past so when it comes to making direct comparisons in combat about who you're going up against, Riboku is apt to make such a comparison. He literally fought Duke Hyou so he knows what he's talking about when he says that line.

This was Riboku's first time facing Shin since Gyou, which was I think around 6 months to 2 years ago.

And Shin didn't even do anything that impressive / outrageous. For all Riboku knows, it could've actually been Kanki's idea, considering Kanki's crazy style of fighting.

For Riboku to say that after just the very first move is what makes it feel forced to me, especially since Kanki is the Commander in Charge of the army. If it had been after a few back and forth between Shin and Riboku, it would've been better (although not completely)

 

[Xlaw]

Not yet

 

[Luffy is the mc]

That line from Riboku felt very forced to me tbh.

It's not even close to being believable.

I don't think he meant it literally but more like what Shin did is something Duke Hyou could have done.
Shin still have a bit of road to do to become a general as accomplished and respected like the Duke but he's getting there.
I think strength wise he is above.

Now we saw that his men still doesn't believe he can take charge when it comes to battle plan, one day will come where they will follow his orders no matter how strange or suicidal they sound.

 

[Jailer]

Nah he's just making a comparison, doesn't mean Shin is at that level in terms of instincts.

Strength wise maybe he surpassed him.

 

[Koro]

Still not there. End of this war i just think he will adapt to be instinctual >=50% but far under 100%. Right now he just begin to decide without karyo ten but thats it, not 100%. Karyo ten will help to manage after that.

"During" Next war (at half way, not end of war) is the one i confident to say that he will 100% instinctual (master it). So he will let Karyo ten with her own detached army.

 

[RayanOO]

Strength wise maybe
Instinct wise : not at all

 

[matt245]

I'm seeing a lot of Kingdom. Should I start reading it? Is it worth it? Can someone tell me more about it?

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

I can’t disagree with this thread any more. For the first time in his career, I really feel like Shin was reading the entire battle instead of just the immediate army in front of him:

I got hardcore Ouhon awakening at Shukai Plains vibes, when Ouhon was being pincered by Chou Garyuu and his tactical vision awakened, leading him to bring a unit across the entire battlefield and pincering Bananji which hurt the Zhao left so badly that Riboku had to send Gyou’Un to reinforce them. I wish I could find the panels of this because this is almost a 1:1 comparison of both Shin and Ouhon awakening General-level vision. @Owl Ki you know the moment I’m talking about?

This was a brilliant move from Shin, inarguably the most brilliant we’ve ever seen him make. The right wing was fucked, Kanki knew that and that’s why he sent no reinforcements. The left wing was also fucked, but now the left’s strength has doubled and the Qin have a point of attack and it’s all because of Shin’s play here.

And as Karyo Ten said, Riboku could not (and did not) predict a move like this. Let Kanki defend himself from the right, and channel the Qin’s strength on the left by linking up your two strongest units. It’s not a perfect plan but given the situation, a brilliant call from Shin. All of the people who complained at Shukai Plains that it seemed like Shin’s battlefield instincts hadn’t really developed, this is your moment. This is a certified General level play from Shin, absolutely brilliant. Imo.

On Duke Hyou’s level instinctually? No. Shin has 5/10 years to go before he gets to that level. But I see why Riboku made the comparison, this was such a weird call that could’ve only been made by an instinctual commander (and a good one at that).

Brilliant play by Shin.

 

[Red Admiral]

I think this just like when people said "Luffy can't match Kaido"
when Riboku says they are closely comparable ... I think they have to be ...

and I stopped reading the current arc btw ...

 

[RayanOO]

I'm seeing a lot of Kingdom. Should I start reading it? Is it worth it? Can someone tell me more about it?

Yep it’s good

Good war, fight and politics

 

[matt245]

Yep it’s good

Good war, fight and politics

Understandable, where do you read it?