So, Koby saved a bunch of people, but since he's not some super powerful individual he doesn't deserve to be called a hero? I didn't think there was a strength level requirement for being dubbed a hero, despite saving a ton of people.... Should the people Koby saved be like, "Thank you for saving us! If only you were stronger, we'd be able to call you a hero."?
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I think Oda intends it like Coby doing an heroic deed so he is labeled as an hero of the marines but an hero, not the hero. He is also not even a vice admiral. While Garp did an incredible feat no other marine (as far as we know) come close to which is the god valley thing and the defeat of Xebec si Garp get the title which imo, in oda's mind, is the marine parallel of the pirate king for pirates. There are always yonkos or admiral but pirate king and hero of the marines (title) are not a given. Imo, even if this manga has sunken, Oda can not try to put on the same pedestal Coby's marine hero and Garp's. This will most likely happen EoS but now it makes 0 sense.
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H
I disagree in one part. PK and Hero are titles that are given. Koby becoming a Hero just prove that. I would say also Yonkos because of Buggy and even Luffy was called Gonko.
PK is no different from other pirates. What Roger did different? He didn't became PK for defeating Rocks or for being the strongest. He simply traveled to all island. He didn't even had to fought for at least 3 red Poneglyph. Or 2 not sure if he fought Kaido at Wano or not. But he may acquired all 4 red Poneglyph without a fight.
And for Garp. As far as we know he needed help from pirates. Just like Shichibukai system this should be a disgrace for marines. And maybe how Shichibukai system started.
Real titles are the strongest one.
Strongest Pirate. WB had this title since Roger Era. WB > Roger was always clear.
Strongest Swordsman. We only know that Mihawk was already famous at Roger era but we are enough sure when he got that title. But the way he talk about it seems like he pursuit it and brags about it. Mihawk > Shanks is more than clear. I would say Big Mom too but Oda is making a mess to say who can be called swordsman and who can't.
Strongest Creature. Same thing. Kaido prove it why he was the strongest. He could only lost to plot. Just like WB.
PK is no different from other pirates. What Roger did different? He didn't became PK for defeating Rocks or for being the strongest. He simply traveled to all island. He didn't even had to fought for at least 3 red Poneglyph. Or 2 not sure if he fought Kaido at Wano or not. But he may acquired all 4 red Poneglyph without a fight.
And for Garp. As far as we know he needed help from pirates. Just like Shichibukai system this should be a disgrace for marines. And maybe how Shichibukai system started.
Real titles are the strongest one.
Strongest Pirate. WB had this title since Roger Era. WB > Roger was always clear.
Strongest Swordsman. We only know that Mihawk was already famous at Roger era but we are enough sure when he got that title. But the way he talk about it seems like he pursuit it and brags about it. Mihawk > Shanks is more than clear. I would say Big Mom too but Oda is making a mess to say who can be called swordsman and who can't.
Strongest Creature. Same thing. Kaido prove it why he was the strongest. He could only lost to plot. Just like WB.
H
You are the one trying to make this a power scale thing.
My whole point is that marines are saving people all day and not being called heros. Why Koby is different?
Just like I said. There is no reason for Buggy being called a Yonko. And here yes he need to have the strength. Back at Impel Down he was what? Level 1 prisioner? And now Yonko? Bullshit. If territories were suppose to mean something than Luffy shouldn't be Yonko.
And then Teach bounty raise. What made that raised? If it was after the events of Amazon Lily would made a little bit of sense but still not that much. It seems Oda just regret giving Teach so low bounty and now it is adjusting like inflation.
My whole point is that marines are saving people all day and not being called heros. Why Koby is different?
Just like I said. There is no reason for Buggy being called a Yonko. And here yes he need to have the strength. Back at Impel Down he was what? Level 1 prisioner? And now Yonko? Bullshit. If territories were suppose to mean something than Luffy shouldn't be Yonko.
And then Teach bounty raise. What made that raised? If it was after the events of Amazon Lily would made a little bit of sense but still not that much. It seems Oda just regret giving Teach so low bounty and now it is adjusting like inflation.
Ok, tbh I forgot totally about the big titles in panels everybody always discuss about (WSS, WSC, WSM), I didn't mean to put Garp's hero of marines title and Coby being called hero in that category. But still imo Roger and Garp get them because of the feats they did, now I don't even recall it totally XD but didn't Roger get the title after he found the OP? Something the other yonkos failed to do, also Xebec was regarded as above a yonko because he ruled the seas even if he didn't found the OP, pretty much it is the same for Whitebeard ("he ruled from below the throne") with the difference he didn't care to go look for the OP.
About Garp it is true he only can claim half the feat of defeating Xebec (as far as we know and can guess), but for sure the world government propaganda said he defeated Xebec alone without the help from pirates (a bit like how Luffy become a gonko thanks to Morgan propaganda).
And about Coby, even if Oda put the hero of Maines title in his presentation box (did he?) it simply seems a mockery if compared to Garp's hero of marines title. To be clear Oda could have at least called him "young hero if the marines" or say he is worth to be Garp's disciple. Anyway he already messes up big time in Wano so this is just a minor mistake in a train wreckage for me.
Also, and now I don't want to open a can of worms (if that is the case please let's just agree to disagree), I still think Shanks=Mihawk. Mihawk is the better swordsman but Shanks has also other cards, CoC, which is for sure better than Mihawk's. Shanks lately has been hyped to the heavens starting from Kaido putting him with Roger, Xebec etc. To him scaring away an admiral with CoC (then for me Oda wanted to underline Mihawk is still there with him saying Mihawk is the best swordsman but those lines were misunderstood by some readers as Mihawk>Shanks). Then if Mihawk>Shanks is for real then Mihawk could simply sit at Kuragaina and slash everything the WG throw at him (from chibishiki to admirals, at least if they don't send all the admirals but that also from a story point if view leaves them completely uncovered and Mihawk too strong, if you don't intend that Mihawk is just a bit above Shanks overall). Also from a story point of view they have always been pictured like rivals, so on the same level, but if I have to say who would win if somebody has to win I will still say Shanks (extreme diff like Akainu vs Aokiji) simply because he is the role model of the main character while Mihawk is the role model of Zoro who at best can be considered a 2nd, minor, main character, so get a Vegeta/Sasuke treatment, but this manga is becoming more and more Jesus Luffy piece so I doubt that.
About Garp it is true he only can claim half the feat of defeating Xebec (as far as we know and can guess), but for sure the world government propaganda said he defeated Xebec alone without the help from pirates (a bit like how Luffy become a gonko thanks to Morgan propaganda).
And about Coby, even if Oda put the hero of Maines title in his presentation box (did he?) it simply seems a mockery if compared to Garp's hero of marines title. To be clear Oda could have at least called him "young hero if the marines" or say he is worth to be Garp's disciple. Anyway he already messes up big time in Wano so this is just a minor mistake in a train wreckage for me.
Also, and now I don't want to open a can of worms (if that is the case please let's just agree to disagree), I still think Shanks=Mihawk. Mihawk is the better swordsman but Shanks has also other cards, CoC, which is for sure better than Mihawk's. Shanks lately has been hyped to the heavens starting from Kaido putting him with Roger, Xebec etc. To him scaring away an admiral with CoC (then for me Oda wanted to underline Mihawk is still there with him saying Mihawk is the best swordsman but those lines were misunderstood by some readers as Mihawk>Shanks). Then if Mihawk>Shanks is for real then Mihawk could simply sit at Kuragaina and slash everything the WG throw at him (from chibishiki to admirals, at least if they don't send all the admirals but that also from a story point if view leaves them completely uncovered and Mihawk too strong, if you don't intend that Mihawk is just a bit above Shanks overall). Also from a story point of view they have always been pictured like rivals, so on the same level, but if I have to say who would win if somebody has to win I will still say Shanks (extreme diff like Akainu vs Aokiji) simply because he is the role model of the main character while Mihawk is the role model of Zoro who at best can be considered a 2nd, minor, main character, so get a Vegeta/Sasuke treatment, but this manga is becoming more and more Jesus Luffy piece so I doubt that.
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Dude...
Roger is the one who created One Piece. He didn't find anything but some islands. He was the first to reach both Lodestar and Laugh Tale.
People called him PK simply because he travelled around all islands of the world.
Roger does have feats of course. Going toe to toe with WB, defeating Rocks with marines etc. But the title itself doesn't take any of that in consideration. Anyone visiting all islands would be considered Pirate King. And You don't have to be strong to do it. About 2-3 Red Poneglyphs Roger got without even fighting. Not sure about the first one he got.
Where is Xebec portrayed above Yonkos? He aimed to be more than Yonko or a mere PK. But I don't remember he ever being portrayed as more than that. His crew was portrayed as the strongest to ever exist.
About OP, again this is a Roger thing. Not sure but I think Roger told everything to WB. He had no interesting before and remained like that after hearing it. So how PK can be superior to someone that simply have different dream?
Mihawk already let clear that haki is a part of swordsman ship. That whole hakiman thing is fandom made. Shanks can user everything in a battle against Mihawk. You could argue that Shanks was weaker before but now he is stronger and etc. But the reallity is that Mihawk is WSS therefore he is stronger than anyone considered a swordsman just like WB was strongest than anyone considered a pirate(Mihawk included).
Even WB is running from marines and he is told to have the power to destroy the world. Mihawk doesn't need to stay where he is being target everyday just to support his title. Everybody wants peace sometimes.
There are a lot of rivals in One Piece with incredible amount of gap between them. Zoro vs Sanji. Luffy vs Kid/Law. Moria vs Kaido.
Roger is the one who created One Piece. He didn't find anything but some islands. He was the first to reach both Lodestar and Laugh Tale.
People called him PK simply because he travelled around all islands of the world.
Roger does have feats of course. Going toe to toe with WB, defeating Rocks with marines etc. But the title itself doesn't take any of that in consideration. Anyone visiting all islands would be considered Pirate King. And You don't have to be strong to do it. About 2-3 Red Poneglyphs Roger got without even fighting. Not sure about the first one he got.
Where is Xebec portrayed above Yonkos? He aimed to be more than Yonko or a mere PK. But I don't remember he ever being portrayed as more than that. His crew was portrayed as the strongest to ever exist.
About OP, again this is a Roger thing. Not sure but I think Roger told everything to WB. He had no interesting before and remained like that after hearing it. So how PK can be superior to someone that simply have different dream?
Mihawk already let clear that haki is a part of swordsman ship. That whole hakiman thing is fandom made. Shanks can user everything in a battle against Mihawk. You could argue that Shanks was weaker before but now he is stronger and etc. But the reallity is that Mihawk is WSS therefore he is stronger than anyone considered a swordsman just like WB was strongest than anyone considered a pirate(Mihawk included).
Even WB is running from marines and he is told to have the power to destroy the world. Mihawk doesn't need to stay where he is being target everyday just to support his title. Everybody wants peace sometimes.
There are a lot of rivals in One Piece with incredible amount of gap between them. Zoro vs Sanji. Luffy vs Kid/Law. Moria vs Kaido.
Actually he found Joy boy treasure and that either is the one piece or the central portion of the OP (if we intend it like Roger leaving all his treasures at the last island).
And even if that feat doesn't seem anything great he was the first and only one to do it. That is most likely due to voice of all things and/or other unique skills only chosen ones get. About the strength concept I agree, he was said to have run from BM but at the same time he put down Xebec and was regarded as the strongest one along with WB (and we have seen the mess an old, sick etc. WB did at Marineford, Akainu and BB were not enough to kill him, they also needed to plot behind his back, the whole crew of BB, elite marines swarming him etc.).
Xebec was clearly portrayed above a mere yonko. Like you said he probably had the strongest crew we have seen in OP under him and have WB, Kaido and BM work under him is something incredible. Also even if he didn't find the OP (probably he had not the characteristics needed for it, like when WB said to BB at marineford he was not the one Roger was waiting for, that was probably referred to the one who is fated to find the OP, and BB is also, 99% sure, the successor of Xebec will just like Luffy is for Roger) he had the power to rule the seas and even aim to become the king of the world. That for me was like if a yonko is so strong that us able to suppress all the other rivals he has and becomes the sole overlord.
About the PK I don't think he is superior to others for that, he most likely must have rare/unique skills like voat but that doesn't equal to battle strength, even if now that Luffy has been portrayed as the choosen one and get the nika asspull/df he basically has toonforce so he is broken to the point he can't lose if Oda wishes to (he just need to draw the cartoonish stuff he draw in the Kaido fight and have him brush away any attack no matter how strong) but that is also the main character, PK title pales if compared to that. To conclude I generally agree, WB didn't dream about the PK title but Oda said he was on par with Roger (yet Roger/Luffy should have some special ability like voat WB lacks)(and Luffy get absurd main character perks others can only dream off).
About the Shanks/Mihawk thing either way, this for me is almost sure, they are extremely close powerwise but if one has to trump the other that is Shanks. About the swordsman - non swordsman if you think about it Whitebeard too had a famed blade, even if that was a glaive and not a sword, but still Mihawk himself put WB above him. That means that Mihawk swordsmanship is above WB since Mihawk is the WSS, still if WB uses all his strength, haki, df, whatever he wins. Same goes for Shanks, at least for me, Mihawk is the better swordsman but if you put Shanks acoc in the equation they end at the same level. Also look at what he did to Greenbull, he scared an admiral who was miles away out of the fight, his sword gryphon was used just as a tool. And either way this is extremely good for Mihawk too, being on par with Shanks at this point means they both are well above an admiral like Greenbull and most likely even stronger than yonkos like BM or even Kaido (see Kaido putting Shanks with Xebec, Roger etc. And also at this point we can guess how Shanks stopped Kaido from coming to Marineford).
To end about the rivalries, it is true and I agree that rivalries like Zoro vs Sanji are a bit if a joke in the end but I still think the Shanks/Mihawk is a true one (rivals very close powerwise). That was made clear for me when Shanks threatened everybody at Marineford but Oda decided to save just Mihawk's face making him leave of his only accord before Shanks spoke, not Akainu, BB or any other top tier, just Mihawk. And that means, for me, he didn't want to ruin the rivalry. But, even if I don't think this is the case, if this rivalry in the end is an unbalanced one (Zoro vs Sanji etc.) I think Mihawk is on the losing side. Oda will not ditch the main character role model in favor of Zoro's, who in the end comes after Luffy for importance.
And even if that feat doesn't seem anything great he was the first and only one to do it. That is most likely due to voice of all things and/or other unique skills only chosen ones get. About the strength concept I agree, he was said to have run from BM but at the same time he put down Xebec and was regarded as the strongest one along with WB (and we have seen the mess an old, sick etc. WB did at Marineford, Akainu and BB were not enough to kill him, they also needed to plot behind his back, the whole crew of BB, elite marines swarming him etc.).
Xebec was clearly portrayed above a mere yonko. Like you said he probably had the strongest crew we have seen in OP under him and have WB, Kaido and BM work under him is something incredible. Also even if he didn't find the OP (probably he had not the characteristics needed for it, like when WB said to BB at marineford he was not the one Roger was waiting for, that was probably referred to the one who is fated to find the OP, and BB is also, 99% sure, the successor of Xebec will just like Luffy is for Roger) he had the power to rule the seas and even aim to become the king of the world. That for me was like if a yonko is so strong that us able to suppress all the other rivals he has and becomes the sole overlord.
About the PK I don't think he is superior to others for that, he most likely must have rare/unique skills like voat but that doesn't equal to battle strength, even if now that Luffy has been portrayed as the choosen one and get the nika asspull/df he basically has toonforce so he is broken to the point he can't lose if Oda wishes to (he just need to draw the cartoonish stuff he draw in the Kaido fight and have him brush away any attack no matter how strong) but that is also the main character, PK title pales if compared to that. To conclude I generally agree, WB didn't dream about the PK title but Oda said he was on par with Roger (yet Roger/Luffy should have some special ability like voat WB lacks)(and Luffy get absurd main character perks others can only dream off).
About the Shanks/Mihawk thing either way, this for me is almost sure, they are extremely close powerwise but if one has to trump the other that is Shanks. About the swordsman - non swordsman if you think about it Whitebeard too had a famed blade, even if that was a glaive and not a sword, but still Mihawk himself put WB above him. That means that Mihawk swordsmanship is above WB since Mihawk is the WSS, still if WB uses all his strength, haki, df, whatever he wins. Same goes for Shanks, at least for me, Mihawk is the better swordsman but if you put Shanks acoc in the equation they end at the same level. Also look at what he did to Greenbull, he scared an admiral who was miles away out of the fight, his sword gryphon was used just as a tool. And either way this is extremely good for Mihawk too, being on par with Shanks at this point means they both are well above an admiral like Greenbull and most likely even stronger than yonkos like BM or even Kaido (see Kaido putting Shanks with Xebec, Roger etc. And also at this point we can guess how Shanks stopped Kaido from coming to Marineford).
To end about the rivalries, it is true and I agree that rivalries like Zoro vs Sanji are a bit if a joke in the end but I still think the Shanks/Mihawk is a true one (rivals very close powerwise). That was made clear for me when Shanks threatened everybody at Marineford but Oda decided to save just Mihawk's face making him leave of his only accord before Shanks spoke, not Akainu, BB or any other top tier, just Mihawk. And that means, for me, he didn't want to ruin the rivalry. But, even if I don't think this is the case, if this rivalry in the end is an unbalanced one (Zoro vs Sanji etc.) I think Mihawk is on the losing side. Oda will not ditch the main character role model in favor of Zoro's, who in the end comes after Luffy for importance.
The thing is, is how many incidents are occurring that is on the same scale as the Rocky Port Incident? We already knew that a chunk of the Worst Generation participated in it, and now we learn that the Blackbeard Pirates, and a former member of the Rocks Pirates were involved.
This is an incident that was covered and reported on a Global scale, with a lot of big named Pirates involved. It's not just your averse everyday *some random Marine helped some random citizen" event.
This is an incident that was covered and reported on a Global scale, with a lot of big named Pirates involved. It's not just your averse everyday *some random Marine helped some random citizen" event.