In that context sure, there’s for sure a push in that regard. But I wouldn’t overreact to it if you aren’t from said culture/nation, and in this thread who even cares about Cleopatra like that? Mainstream entertainment almost never gets history right and especially not in today’s world. Netflix and Hollywood also been a joke for a while now don’t see how it should come as some sort of surprise that they pull some BS like this.
Agreed with not overreacting. In gladiator, Commodus was played by a Jewish actor instead of an Italian; in 300 and Troy, Leonidas and Achilles were played by a Scot and Anglo American instead of a Greek. Accurate casting of historical figures' ethnicities and races are often sacrificed for competent actors and big names.

Not saying the situations are completely analogous, since there's a bit of an agenda on Jada Smith's part that may be influenced by afrocentric historical narratives, but we shouldn't get too caught up in the frenzy
 
I agree that historical figures should not be raceswapped for movies and stuff
BUT
1. I just think Cleopatra is kind of a lost cause. Shes not black, and she's not white. But there have already been dozens of black Cleopatras, and hundreds of white ones, throughout the history of film and theatre. While it would be nice to get a Greek actor in there, its not something anyone should expect at this point

2. That still wouldn't make the Egyptians who are mad about this happy, though, because they want her to be ethnically Egyptian

3. The argument rings hollow in this particular case because nobody is complaining about a British guy playing Julius Caesar or a Welsh guy playing Marc Antony in this movie. Its all "afrocentrism bad!" But when the UK gobbles up yet another role meant for an Italian, no one bats an eye
 
3. The argument rings hollow in this particular case because nobody is complaining about a British guy playing Julius Caesar or a Welsh guy playing Marc Antony in this movie. Its all "afrocentrism bad!" But when the UK gobbles up yet another role meant for an Italian, no one bats an eye
Ah this is a wrong point to make

Caesar and Mark Anthony aren't Italian, they are Roman. It isn't the same thing, it is very different. From cultural, to language, political and other aspects, it is very different. The only thing they share in common is same land (which was subjected to invasion from countless Germanic tribes, Normans, Franks and so on that all melted in what is today Italy)

So since there aren't any Romans left you can't really cast Roman actors.
 
Caesar and Mark Anthony aren't Italian, they are Roman. It isn't the same thing, it is very different. From cultural, to language, political and other aspects, it is very different. The only thing they share in common is same land (which was subjected to invasion from countless Germanic tribes, Normans, Franks and so on that all melted in what is today Italy)
Closest modern population to Romans are Italians, according to modern genetic data. Their language is also a form of vulgar Latin, and they've maintained many Christian traditions introduced by the Romans. I think it's unfair to disconnect them from their ancestors by assuming they all got raped into oblivion
 
Ah this is a wrong point to make

Caesar and Mark Anthony aren't Italian, they are Roman. It isn't the same thing, it is very different. From cultural, to language, political and other aspects, it is very different. The only thing they share in common is same land (which was subjected to invasion from countless Germanic tribes, Normans, Franks and so on that all melted in what is today Italy)

So since there aren't any Romans left you can't really cast Roman actors.
You fell for my trap card where I say "and this is different from Cleopatra... how?"
 
Closest modern population to Romans are Italians, according to modern genetic data. Their language is also a form of vulgar Latin, and they've maintained many Christian traditions introduced by the Romans. I think it's unfair to disconnect them from their ancestors by assuming they all got raped into oblivion
Modern Italians have more in Common with Franks and Germans than Romans.

Since the fall of Rome Italy has been controlled by several great powers and the population got so mixed they have more of anything else than Roman

As for Latin, No. If you went right now in italy abd spoke Latin no one would understand you. I learned latin for 2 years in HS and 1 in college, that language is so different italian it is bogling

As for Christianity, that goes across entire Europe not just Italy


For an Italian to call himself Roman would be like me, a Croatian, calling myself Ilyrian
 
Agreed with not overreacting. In gladiator, Commodus was played by a Jewish actor instead of an Italian; in 300 and Troy, Leonidas and Achilles were played by a Scot and Anglo American instead of a Greek. Accurate casting of historical figures' ethnicities and races are often sacrificed for competent actors and big names.

Not saying the situations are completely analogous, since there's a bit of an agenda on Jada Smith's part that may be influenced by afrocentric historical narratives, but we shouldn't get too caught up in the frenzy
A lot of people did attack 300 because of the weird ass "Aryan Spartans, Black Gay Persians" narrative, especially given who wrote the graphic Novel and how he got pretty much cancelled
 
Modern Italians have more in Common with Franks and Germans than Romans.
Modern Italians are genetically related to many Roman samples that have been analysed

the population got so mixed they have more of anything else than Roman
This is conjecture, and many make this mistake when talking about Egyptians in relation to ancient Egyptians. Both Italians and Egyptians are the closest population to their ancient counterparts. Assuming they got mega raped and diluted is silly

As for Latin, No. If you went right now in italy abd spoke Latin no one would understand you. I learned latin for 2 years in HS and 1 in college, that language is so different italian it is bogling
Fair enough. My point was just one of many, and extends to all Romance languages

For an Italian to call himself Roman would be like me, a Croatian, calling myself Ilyrian
Nope, it would be like an Albanian calling themselves Illyrian/Thracian and there would be nothing wrong with this. Genetically and linguistically, they are the descendants of these ancient Balkan populations, much like modern Italians are descendants of the Romans. We know Croatians and other Slavic peoples in the Balkans arrived sometime in the late iron age
 
Modern Italians are genetically related to many Roman samples that have been analysed
From History Reddit and various sites

Y-chromosome data suggests that Italians of this era are closely related (in the south) to Greeks and southern Balkans populations, (the north) of Italy is more akin to western Europeans, and there are populations in the eastern areas of the peninsula which are genetically more related to western Balkans populations.

This very closely resembles what we know about the pre-Roman and Roman history of the peninsula, with Greeks colonizing the south, the northern Italians being closer to Gauls, and even some Balkanic Illyrian trbes living in the eastern parts of the peninsula.

_____________________________________________

Ancient Italy was a diverse place. In addition to Latins there were Sabines, Samnites, Etruscans, Greeks, Celts, and Ligurians...all settled in different regions of what is now Italy. All of these peoples originally had their own customs and languages and only later adopted the language and customs of the Latins after Rome obtained hegemony over them through military force. Roman was never an ethnicity, it merely indicated citizenship to the city-state of Rome. The ethnicity of the original Romans would have been Latin, and perhaps Sabine as well, if there is any truth to some of the early foundation myths. Rome originally was just one of many Latin towns and cities, all independent from one another, and who frequently warred against each other.

As for the fall of the Roman Empire and the German migrations...

The Germanic warriors who migrated into Italy did not engage in wipe out the natives. They merely replaced the rulers. Nor did they arrive in numbers sufficient enough to radically alter the genetic makeup of Italy. It was not unlike the later Norman invasion of England.

You need only to look at Roman artwork from Pompeii to see that Italy wasn't depopulated and replaced with Germanic tribesmen. Except for the costumes and hairstyles, the people depicted in the paintings look just like modern Italians.

_______________________________________________

Italians today have so much genetical make up changed over the course of centuries that to call modern Italians Romans would be absolutely false.

This is conjecture, and many make this mistake when talking about Egyptians in relation to ancient Egyptians. Both Italians and Egyptians are the closest population to their ancient counterparts. Assuming they got mega raped and diluted is silly
Once again, while that may be the case because of land of origin, you gotta understand that both of these nations underwent MAJOR genetical changes due to migrations and conquest.

Nope, it would be like an Albanian calling themselves Illyrian/Thracian and there would be nothing wrong with this. Genetically and linguistically, they are the descendants of these ancient Balkan populations, much like modern Italians are descendants of the Romans. We know Croatians and other Slavic peoples in the Balkans arrived sometime in the late iron age
Croatians arrived to Europe in 7-8th century and we either butchered remaining Illyrians or assimilated them as our own.
The movement of Croatian intellectuals in 17-18 century was called Illyrian Movement.

And I can tell you right away - we share nothing in common with Illyrians, not one Croatian would ever call himself Illyrian or say the came from Illyrians.
 
The Germanic warriors who migrated into Italy did not engage in wipe out the natives. They merely replaced the rulers. Nor did they arrive in numbers sufficient enough to radically alter the genetic makeup of Italy. It was not unlike the later Norman invasion of England.

You need only to look at Roman artwork from Pompeii to see that Italy wasn't depopulated and replaced with Germanic tribesmen. Except for the costumes and hairstyles, the people depicted in the paintings look just like modern Italians.
Yeah, Rome had many different peoples who came together to form Rome and their descendants are closely resemble modern Italians who are composed of all of these ancient people. This isn't the same as Germanics tribes in the middle ages raping everyone; they simply replaced the ruling class. Similarly, in Egypt, the successive invaders replaced the rulers and didn't wipe out and replace the majority of the population.

Once again, while that may be the case because of land of origin, you gotta understand that both of these nations underwent MAJOR genetical changes due to migrations and conquest.
I disagree about major genetical changes. Obviously there's been some changes, but they're still the closer than anyone in relation to their ancient ancestors. You gotta remember that the population of these areas dwarfed the invading armies in size

Croatians arrived to Europe in 7-8th century and we either butchered remaining Illyrians or assimilated them as our own.
The movement of Croatian intellectuals in 17-18 century was called Illyrian Movement.

And I can tell you right away - we share nothing in common with Illyrians, not one Croatian would ever call himself Illyrian or say the came from Illyrians.
Modern Illyrians/Thracians are believed to be the Albanians, not the Slavic peoples.
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Nothing but respect to Slavs though. Very impressive how they expanded and inhabit land stretching from Germany to the Pacific
 
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