General & Others Fanart: Big Mom vs Kizaru(One of the greatest works I ever seen).
Still he could use something new, it is the mangaka way to highlight the fights and make them interesting for the readers.
Even if she is not strong as Kaido, the portrayal was clear that she was playing in the same league as Kaido,Shanks and Whitebeard.
The gap shouldn´t be that large.
Okay and what they did to fulfill their dreams?
Joined a piratecrew to fulfill it and what they do during sailing?
Fighting, without fighting, neither Sanji or Robin or the rest, can´t fulfill their dreams.
Roger fought too, you can´t be a pirate and don´t except to ever fight.
And what you are writing here is just baseless, the strawhats are the main actors of this manga and what they did so far?
Did they sneak around without fighting? Nope, they fought to keep the dream on and fulfill it right?
In the case for the strawhats, no fightning means no dream.
Luffy not fightning Arlong would mean that Nami would never join him.
Luffy not fightning Krieg would mean that Sanji would never join him.
Luffy not fighting Captain Kuro would mean that Usopp would never join him
Luffy not fightning Wapol would mean that Chopper would never join him.
Almost every strawhats joined Luffy because he fighted someone so his members became free with their own will to became pirates and fulfill their dreams.
If Luffy not fights any of these villians, almost every strawhat would never join him and became a part of his crew?
You understand now how important and big fights/battles has a meaning in One Piece?
Without fights>No One Piece.
And that is the case, the One Piece manga with the strawhats only works because Luffy fought to gain his crew.
Without Luffy fighting these villians, he would never fulfill his dream.
End of the debate, there is no second opinion.
Luffy saved Sanji by beating Don Krieg and helping him.
Luffy saved Robin by beating Lucci and the CP0...
Luffy saved Nami because he defeated Arlong and saved her hometown...
Without fightning, none of them would join his crew in the first place, with leads to the second question, how many villians Luffy actually defeated without fighting them? Pls answer this question without ignoring it.
All Straw Hats only joined the crew after wild fights had taken place before, where Luffy had to defeat the villains so that his Nakama were "FREE". Without fights, the Strawhats would not exist, period.
This is simply not negotiable.
ONE PIECE IS A SHONEN BATTLE MANGA.
Who says otherwise and refuse to accept it, is denial asf.
Even if she is not strong as Kaido, the portrayal was clear that she was playing in the same league as Kaido,Shanks and Whitebeard.
The gap shouldn´t be that large.
Okay and what they did to fulfill their dreams?
Joined a piratecrew to fulfill it and what they do during sailing?
Fighting, without fighting, neither Sanji or Robin or the rest, can´t fulfill their dreams.
Roger fought too, you can´t be a pirate and don´t except to ever fight.
And what you are writing here is just baseless, the strawhats are the main actors of this manga and what they did so far?
Did they sneak around without fighting? Nope, they fought to keep the dream on and fulfill it right?
In the case for the strawhats, no fightning means no dream.
Luffy not fightning Arlong would mean that Nami would never join him.
Luffy not fightning Krieg would mean that Sanji would never join him.
Luffy not fighting Captain Kuro would mean that Usopp would never join him
Luffy not fightning Wapol would mean that Chopper would never join him.
Almost every strawhats joined Luffy because he fighted someone so his members became free with their own will to became pirates and fulfill their dreams.
If Luffy not fights any of these villians, almost every strawhat would never join him and became a part of his crew?
You understand now how important and big fights/battles has a meaning in One Piece?
Without fights>No One Piece.
And that is the case, the One Piece manga with the strawhats only works because Luffy fought to gain his crew.
Without Luffy fighting these villians, he would never fulfill his dream.
End of the debate, there is no second opinion.
Luffy saved Sanji by beating Don Krieg and helping him.
Luffy saved Robin by beating Lucci and the CP0...
Luffy saved Nami because he defeated Arlong and saved her hometown...
Without fightning, none of them would join his crew in the first place, with leads to the second question, how many villians Luffy actually defeated without fighting them? Pls answer this question without ignoring it.
All Straw Hats only joined the crew after wild fights had taken place before, where Luffy had to defeat the villains so that his Nakama were "FREE". Without fights, the Strawhats would not exist, period.
This is simply not negotiable.
ONE PIECE IS A SHONEN BATTLE MANGA.
Who says otherwise and refuse to accept it, is denial asf.
Okay, so what purpose did Gladius have to bloat his body like that, which can also explode when it reaches the perfect elasticity???
Do you really think Machvise needed this ability specifically to match the power of the giant? We've seen smaller characters easily knocking out giants with no issues. In fact, G2 Luffy easily one shot Hajrudin with a single punch. He didn't need to increase his weight that drastically.
What even is that of a reason? Are you even trying lol???
No, it just means there are weaknesses to almost all powers. Plus, fire isn't even necessarily Mr. 3's weakness - he used the flames to form his wax in the first place.
Bruh, you're just basically forcing yourself to see some connections of their abilities to the respective arc. It is clear Mr. 3's ability has the purpose to restrict and immobilize other opponents. It doesn't need to serve the narration. He's a wax user. Neither does it serve a narrative purpose that Dellinger is a good kicker who also has fishman karate at the same time.
Like the rest of your post. Forceful "connections" to the user's whole identity and serving the theme of the conflicts of the actors. You basically yap and yap around obvious stuff but cannot bring anything valuable to the discussion.
No, it really is not.
That isn't a joke - they are just merely fodder, lol.
Like I said, Gladius had his proper battle and he wasn't easily slapped around like a fodder. Even then, Mr. 5's abilities were quite useless on Luffy and Zoro on a direct battle but you forgot how effective his bombs were when Luffy was actually immobilized by the mountain sized fossil.
So it wasn't just merely used as a joke.
Alright, let's just assume Diamante's DF is specifically there to play a role on his name and on the cards game - do you know how baseless that is? And how is this a joke again? Tf???
Eh, or Oda chose a random ability for Diamante to grant him the abilities to make everything he touches into "flags". He could have chosen a different ability which would still go well with him manipulating things and aiming to hurt Kyros' daughter like that.
Ngl, last paragraph sounds like it's straight from ChatGPT, lol. You would have a point if Diamante's ability allows him to harden everything but a wooden stick ultimately knocked him down.
Yes but that's it on that part.
Oda later showed this step when Katakuri's Block Mochi overpowered Luffy's hardening fist and Luffy didn't have to imbue his body with full hardening to make a point. A similar moment was also present with Pica who used fullbody hardening to strengthen his defence in front of Zoro but the one with better power and haki obviously won the clash.
Can you tell me what narrative purpose Jimbei's fullbody hardening served when he defended himself from WW's shigan gatling??? I hope it's not some hyper interpretated nonsense like your paragraphs above, lol.
Which doesn't negate my statement that One Piece is a battle shonen manga...
Nah, you just need to stop coping on so many levels and pretending to write an analysis essay where you're "interpretating" what the author meant to show at that particular moment.
It sounds so ridiculous.
So that would be an exception because almost all arc conflicts were handled by battles and wars.
Even Zou was ultimately handled how Zunisha followed Momonosuke's order and yeeted Jack's ship away.
By the way, the more you argue in favor of fights having narrative purposes, the more you just basically confirm how the story cannot properly function without battles telling conflicts of the characters. That's essentially what a battle shonen manga is. Do you believe other battle shonen manga have abilities which serve absolutely NO PURPOSE in the story?
Do you really think Machvise needed this ability specifically to match the power of the giant? We've seen smaller characters easily knocking out giants with no issues. In fact, G2 Luffy easily one shot Hajrudin with a single punch. He didn't need to increase his weight that drastically.
What even is that of a reason? Are you even trying lol???
No, it just means there are weaknesses to almost all powers. Plus, fire isn't even necessarily Mr. 3's weakness - he used the flames to form his wax in the first place.
Bruh, you're just basically forcing yourself to see some connections of their abilities to the respective arc. It is clear Mr. 3's ability has the purpose to restrict and immobilize other opponents. It doesn't need to serve the narration. He's a wax user. Neither does it serve a narrative purpose that Dellinger is a good kicker who also has fishman karate at the same time.
Like the rest of your post. Forceful "connections" to the user's whole identity and serving the theme of the conflicts of the actors. You basically yap and yap around obvious stuff but cannot bring anything valuable to the discussion.
No, it really is not.
That isn't a joke - they are just merely fodder, lol.
Like I said, Gladius had his proper battle and he wasn't easily slapped around like a fodder. Even then, Mr. 5's abilities were quite useless on Luffy and Zoro on a direct battle but you forgot how effective his bombs were when Luffy was actually immobilized by the mountain sized fossil.
So it wasn't just merely used as a joke.
Alright, let's just assume Diamante's DF is specifically there to play a role on his name and on the cards game - do you know how baseless that is? And how is this a joke again? Tf???
Eh, or Oda chose a random ability for Diamante to grant him the abilities to make everything he touches into "flags". He could have chosen a different ability which would still go well with him manipulating things and aiming to hurt Kyros' daughter like that.
Ngl, last paragraph sounds like it's straight from ChatGPT, lol. You would have a point if Diamante's ability allows him to harden everything but a wooden stick ultimately knocked him down.
Yes but that's it on that part.
Oda later showed this step when Katakuri's Block Mochi overpowered Luffy's hardening fist and Luffy didn't have to imbue his body with full hardening to make a point. A similar moment was also present with Pica who used fullbody hardening to strengthen his defence in front of Zoro but the one with better power and haki obviously won the clash.
Can you tell me what narrative purpose Jimbei's fullbody hardening served when he defended himself from WW's shigan gatling??? I hope it's not some hyper interpretated nonsense like your paragraphs above, lol.
Which doesn't negate my statement that One Piece is a battle shonen manga...
Nah, you just need to stop coping on so many levels and pretending to write an analysis essay where you're "interpretating" what the author meant to show at that particular moment.
It sounds so ridiculous.
So that would be an exception because almost all arc conflicts were handled by battles and wars.
Even Zou was ultimately handled how Zunisha followed Momonosuke's order and yeeted Jack's ship away.
By the way, the more you argue in favor of fights having narrative purposes, the more you just basically confirm how the story cannot properly function without battles telling conflicts of the characters. That's essentially what a battle shonen manga is. Do you believe other battle shonen manga have abilities which serve absolutely NO PURPOSE in the story?
It's a battle shonen if;
I) All of or the absolute majority of obstacles are overcome by whacking them.
II) The target demographic wouldn't read it if it didn't have cool fights.
All the antagonists are physically whacked and no teenager I know of would read One Piece if it didn't have cool fights. It's a battle shonen. No need to overcomplicate things, battle shonens are entertaining.
I) All of or the absolute majority of obstacles are overcome by whacking them.
II) The target demographic wouldn't read it if it didn't have cool fights.
All the antagonists are physically whacked and no teenager I know of would read One Piece if it didn't have cool fights. It's a battle shonen. No need to overcomplicate things, battle shonens are entertaining.
The worst thing is, I was just praising his first post for the efforts in analysing this great fanfiction, then Logiko started with the usual BS and started claiming OP is not a battle manga, so I gotta put him on his place on that one. Imagine studying storytelling, film direction, whatever for many years and you cannot tell if a battle shonen manga is a battle shonen manga or not. 
The worst thing is, I was just praising his first post for the efforts in analysing this great fanfiction, then Logiko started with the usual BS and started claiming OP is not a battle manga, so I gotta put him on his place on that one. Imagine studying storytelling, film direction, whatever for many years and you cannot tell if a battle shonen manga is a battle shonen manga or not.
Found it in twitter, if Oda would done half of what the guy did, his battles would be one of the best in entire shonen jump, it is insane how much effort this guy put, this alone would hype both Big Mom(I really wish) and Kizaru to a whole new lvl, I like how effort he put to give Kizaru and Big Mom variations of unique skills, for me one of the best fanarts descript a battle of a Yonkou vs a Admiral. It shows how much potential One Piece fights would had if Oda would use them rightly...
He should ask this guy for help, his fight would increase for the better for 100%.
This is Big Mom with I always wanted to see...
Here the Chapter(the final result will come later once, teaser of both using awakening:
This is how you draw One Piece fight at maximum lvl, how you draw a perfect battle with all haki types(future sight, devilfruit power) in combination...
I love how this guy put everything in detial to draw amazing fightskills for Kizaru light power, it is unique and show how massive potential Kizaru light fruit has, same counts for Linlin devilfruit. Really someone need to send fights like this to Oda, so he can see what he can reach if he use the full potential of his villians and their powers.
I fucking love this, if One Piece fights would be like this, fuck every other Shonen mangas, they wouldn´t be even close to One Piece.
Tags:
@Buusatan94 , @Kejon , @JoNdule , @Paperchampion23 , @Sentinel , @Steven , @SHIHI , @MonsterKaido , @Hanzo hattori , @Fleet Leader Fenaker , @Haoshoku , @Jiihad , @Chairman TheAncientCenturion , @AL sama , @RayanOO , @Bogard , @Doggo , @SDfear , @Pot Goblin , @Mr. Reloaded , @Roo , @Peroroncino , @DarkestKnightofSpoilers , @Pantheos , @Akai2 , @Reborn , @Cross_Marian , @Fujishiro , @LANJI CUCKSMOKE , @Yo Tan Wa , @Cinera , @AkainuTheGrimReaper , @Apollo , @Seven7 , @Dragon777 , @MarineHQ , @Elder Lee Hung , @Extravlad , @Germinator , @King7 , @Kurozumi Wiwi , @Owl Ki , @Blackbeard , @SakazOuki , @silverfire , @The White Crane , @Sir Tuna Sandwich II , @ZenZu , @Zenos7 , @Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier , @comrade , @M944
He should ask this guy for help, his fight would increase for the better for 100%.
This is Big Mom with I always wanted to see...
Here the Chapter(the final result will come later once, teaser of both using awakening:
This is how you draw One Piece fight at maximum lvl, how you draw a perfect battle with all haki types(future sight, devilfruit power) in combination...
I love how this guy put everything in detial to draw amazing fightskills for Kizaru light power, it is unique and show how massive potential Kizaru light fruit has, same counts for Linlin devilfruit. Really someone need to send fights like this to Oda, so he can see what he can reach if he use the full potential of his villians and their powers.
I fucking love this, if One Piece fights would be like this, fuck every other Shonen mangas, they wouldn´t be even close to One Piece.
Tags:
@Buusatan94 , @Kejon , @JoNdule , @Paperchampion23 , @Sentinel , @Steven , @SHIHI , @MonsterKaido , @Hanzo hattori , @Fleet Leader Fenaker , @Haoshoku , @Jiihad , @Chairman TheAncientCenturion , @AL sama , @RayanOO , @Bogard , @Doggo , @SDfear , @Pot Goblin , @Mr. Reloaded , @Roo , @Peroroncino , @DarkestKnightofSpoilers , @Pantheos , @Akai2 , @Reborn , @Cross_Marian , @Fujishiro , @LANJI CUCKSMOKE , @Yo Tan Wa , @Cinera , @AkainuTheGrimReaper , @Apollo , @Seven7 , @Dragon777 , @MarineHQ , @Elder Lee Hung , @Extravlad , @Germinator , @King7 , @Kurozumi Wiwi , @Owl Ki , @Blackbeard , @SakazOuki , @silverfire , @The White Crane , @Sir Tuna Sandwich II , @ZenZu , @Zenos7 , @Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier , @comrade , @M944
For what reason ? Again. It's useless to make the character overdoo themself when the point is literally to show that they are doing as little as possible.
You keep on distinguishing the fight from the story. And I recon that this is why you guys don't understand why this fan art would not work.
Oda made Kizaru do as little as possible. The reason for that is the story. Only the story. What is interesting is a fight that helps a good story, not a long and complicated one that completely contradicts it.
It's not large. It's just enough to show that there is a difference. She really was not portrayed as weak.
One Piece is not about the dream, it's about the journey TO the dream. Chances are that we won't see the strawhats accomplish their dreams aside from a few characters (like Brook for ex)
They expect fights, but they do not go for it. That's the nuance. They fight when their friends are oppressed, not as a way to be on top.
Nothing that I wrote about One Piece is baseless. There is always a reason.
What I'm asking you is to understand the reason why the strawhats fights in the VERY VAST majority of the cases.
Fights are not an excuses to resolve rescue people in One Piece, they are the only way.
This is why you can't write a fight like it is trivial in OP, it needs to serve a purpose. Without said purpose, a fight is useless and do not really deserve to be shown.
Of course. And that's what I'm telling you. Fight have are USED for a purpose. They are not THE story.
This is a fundamental rule of good shonen and One Piece is just pushing that to the limits:
We do not push the story on the fights. We push the fight on the story.
Once you start pushing the story on fight, you render those fight meaningless since a fight alone is not enough, it needs a context, characterizations, stakes etc.
This is actually one of the reason why despite being beautiful and drawn amazingly, the fights of One Punch man are completely empty of substance for the most part. (and I think it is done kinda on purpose by ONE to criticize the genre)
Obviously since it's a shonen, you can't do without the fight. But you need to understand the nuance when I say that fight are only a tool and not the as important as the rest.
No. It works before that. One Piece fan do not become fan when Luffy defeat Arlong. They become fans of the manga when Nami ask for help and Luffy replies by the affirmative by giving her the hat.
This is the point that I'm trying to make and ... yeah.. on this forum, it's really not something that people understand easily:
One Piece do NOT work because of the fights. It work because of the EMOTIONS it procures to people. The fights are here to prolongate said emotions and create moments of catharsis once Luffy deploys the last blow.
Only a minority of people (a small part of the fanbase, mainly stationned on forums) will get hyped up because of the fights.
So indeed, there is no debate here.
I make a difference between Luffy rescuing his friends and Luffy saving his friend.
So while yes, those are occurences where Luffy rescue them. The real save comes before.
That's what you don't get.
If Luffy saved your mind, no matter how hard it will be you WILL join him.
The strawhats do not decide to join Luffy in his battle once he defeats the villain, they do not decide to follow him or act because of his inspirations only when the bad guy is defeated.
They will act up BEFORE THAT, because Luffy will have lighten up a fire in them before that point.
That's a reason why Luffy is not like other protagonists and why One Piece has a revolutionnary aspect to it.
Luffy light up the fire inside every one for them to GET UP.....
and THEN he defeats the bad guys!
Yes, the fights are fundamentals and yes, Luffy defeats his ennemy through that means. But his way of saving people is not through a fight, but through his true and genuine kindness.
The fight are just an extention of his toolbox. THis is why the story must always focus more on the emotions and characterizations rather than battles.
And that's why One Piece is a shonen manga... with battle inside of it. The nuance is important because it shows what the author really values.
Gladius was created to parralel the story of Bartho.
Both are opposites: bartho can create a barriere to defend himself and Gladius can attack everything by blowing himself up. The question is what happen's when the character in question (Bartho) need to defends himself AND defend someone that he cares about (Robin).. Well, Bartho stop being selfish (his basic characterization) and puts a barrier between him + his adversary and the one he cares about. THus by letting himself be wounded.
Again.. storytelling mate. One Piece is all in the details.
No. It was also used against Franky. Since Franky and Senior pink's style is catch, the analogy is perfect.
Yes, but Luffy is on a completely different level.
It's not supposed to be deep, it's a simple joke irony mate. And yes, fire IS the weakness of his power, even if he uses it.
In this case it does.
You see.. something you are missing is that the connection doesn't need to be intentional by Oda. to be there or to make sence for people. In fact I'm sure there are thing that Oda didn't think about that are COMPLETELY here. Simply because he is not all knowing but as any human, he makes logical connections that we can catch. Here, the wax - even if not done on purpose - perfectly adds weight to the thematic of the arc : Something stuck in place, waved by time and fire.
I think it's on purpose, it's seems too obvious for me, but even if it's not, it does not matter mate. The purpose is still here.
With Dellinger it's not about the kicks. it's about the character. Dellinger is one of the four kids of the Doffy family and the youngest one. Everything he knows comes from dofflamingo and his mates. This is why Oda pushed the bar on his psychopathy. Remember, we just finished an arc (fishmen island) where the point was to show to children a good example or they will turn bad because of their education and environment only. Dellinger is exactly that, the perfect reflect of Doflamingo, born in oppulence and cynicism. (in fact I think Oda literally made Dellinger a fishmen to follow up on that point I'm making)
You know. There is a few step in the life of someone who learn storytelling through stories through the teaching of other people:
- "Oh !? So he meant that ? Cool !"
- "BS ! This teacher is completely dumb, he is overcomplicating the story to find connections"
- "Wait ?! This story is structure is that way, it can't be a coincidence and there is more !"
- "Am I crazy or did this author really meant that ?"
- "WTF, it's so much deeper than I ever though"
- "I know everything and yet I know nothing ! Time to watch the analysis of other people !"
You are in the second phase. I might be simply unable to show you what I'm seeing, it's possible, I'm not good at explaining this. But trust me, I'm not overcomplicating things AT ALL.
In fact, I'm stayin really on the surface here. And this is why I know for a fact that a fight without substance can't work. Because there is not even meaning on the SURFACE level.
It was. The only way those agent were effective was when the character were immobilized. This was really THE joke.
Oda jokes EVERYTIMES with the name and abilities of his characters. Not only that but he find a way to use those joke for narrative purposes. This is why it's so good :)
If you think that what Oda did and simply did not care to actually use his power to tell something (when it's actually obvious he did).. think what you want mate. What do you want me to say... ?
Again.. you are proving what I say. You are in the face "you are just over reaching to find connections".
You know for a fact that Oda will use EVERYTHING to create storytelling
You know for a fact that Oda create AMAZING stories even with the tinest details
You know for a fact that Oda loves to play with words, names and abilities
You know for a fact that his jokes will pretty much always be used to narrate something (ex Sanji in fishmen Island)
You know for a fact that ALL One Piece stories come back around at the end and Oda loves to create narrative justice
But... when I tell you that a man named DIAMANTe who can make every thing go hard, a murderer who demolished a family and killed a mother, who made iron urchins rain down from the sky on a armorless father standing still out of will in front of his daughter who he tried to killed... was striked down by the father and symbolically knock down by the mother because of the wooden stick of the mother's grave .... and that was made on purpose....
... you are telling me that I'm "chatGPT" or that I'm overconnecting or overanalysing the story ?
Bro... everything here is meant to be OBVIOUS.
Yes.. because it was another lesson.
The first (with Vergo) was meant to make people the point behind Haki and will.
The second (with Katakuri) was meant to show that some stronger form of Haki are possible. (better technics, Ryo)
Something people didn't notice in this fight:
Is that... Jinbe ..
Completely lost his cool during that interaction....
He was NOT HAPPY...
AT ALL !!
Who's who taunted Jinbe on the history of slavery of his race. This is why Jinbe went serious. And choosed to tanked all his attack.
Jinbe here made a point that what Who's who was saying had would not put him down but strenghen him.
It was a very simple thing. The reason why Who's who lost is because he went over the line.
Sure. Keep thinking like that. I'm sure you will have a fun time enjoying stories in the future.
no. I'm simply explaining that Oda choosed to use battle in a more effective way than generic shonen mangas.
I don't really have the will to make the search but yeah.
Understand the nuance I make when I say that One Piece is not a battle shonen manga but a shonen with battles in it.
You will understand a LOT of things about One Piece this way.
Battle shonen means that the battle are the motor of the story.
In One Piece, it's the opposite. It's the story that is the motor.
A Battle shonen will only be good if the BATTLE is the point of the manga and assumed as such. If the manga tries to tell a story but see the battle as a motor, it will create a bad story and a boring battle.
On the other hand, if the point of the battle shonen manga is to make a great battle and show how this battle shape the characters, then it will make an AMAZING manga.
If you want to understand the difference in storytelling:
- Death Note is a battle shonen Manga. > The battle creates the story.
- One Piece is a shonen with battles inside of it. > The story creates the battles.
Do you understand the difference ?
This fight had a purpose : Show that Luffy is not on the same level anymore and is far beyond people with strong abilities.
This battle was a way to confirm Luffy as a Yonko.
Carrot CAN fly.
This is an ability created as a play on a legend about flying rabbits.
You keep on distinguishing the fight from the story. And I recon that this is why you guys don't understand why this fan art would not work.
Oda made Kizaru do as little as possible. The reason for that is the story. Only the story. What is interesting is a fight that helps a good story, not a long and complicated one that completely contradicts it.
It's not large. It's just enough to show that there is a difference. She really was not portrayed as weak.
One Piece is not about the dream, it's about the journey TO the dream. Chances are that we won't see the strawhats accomplish their dreams aside from a few characters (like Brook for ex)
They expect fights, but they do not go for it. That's the nuance. They fight when their friends are oppressed, not as a way to be on top.
Nothing that I wrote about One Piece is baseless. There is always a reason.
What I'm asking you is to understand the reason why the strawhats fights in the VERY VAST majority of the cases.
Fights are not an excuses to resolve rescue people in One Piece, they are the only way.
This is why you can't write a fight like it is trivial in OP, it needs to serve a purpose. Without said purpose, a fight is useless and do not really deserve to be shown.
Of course. And that's what I'm telling you. Fight have are USED for a purpose. They are not THE story.
This is a fundamental rule of good shonen and One Piece is just pushing that to the limits:
We do not push the story on the fights. We push the fight on the story.
Once you start pushing the story on fight, you render those fight meaningless since a fight alone is not enough, it needs a context, characterizations, stakes etc.
This is actually one of the reason why despite being beautiful and drawn amazingly, the fights of One Punch man are completely empty of substance for the most part. (and I think it is done kinda on purpose by ONE to criticize the genre)
Obviously since it's a shonen, you can't do without the fight. But you need to understand the nuance when I say that fight are only a tool and not the as important as the rest.
No. It works before that. One Piece fan do not become fan when Luffy defeat Arlong. They become fans of the manga when Nami ask for help and Luffy replies by the affirmative by giving her the hat.
This is the point that I'm trying to make and ... yeah.. on this forum, it's really not something that people understand easily:
One Piece do NOT work because of the fights. It work because of the EMOTIONS it procures to people. The fights are here to prolongate said emotions and create moments of catharsis once Luffy deploys the last blow.
Only a minority of people (a small part of the fanbase, mainly stationned on forums) will get hyped up because of the fights.
So indeed, there is no debate here.
I make a difference between Luffy rescuing his friends and Luffy saving his friend.
So while yes, those are occurences where Luffy rescue them. The real save comes before.
That's what you don't get.
If Luffy saved your mind, no matter how hard it will be you WILL join him.
The strawhats do not decide to join Luffy in his battle once he defeats the villain, they do not decide to follow him or act because of his inspirations only when the bad guy is defeated.
They will act up BEFORE THAT, because Luffy will have lighten up a fire in them before that point.
That's a reason why Luffy is not like other protagonists and why One Piece has a revolutionnary aspect to it.
Luffy light up the fire inside every one for them to GET UP.....
and THEN he defeats the bad guys!
Yes, the fights are fundamentals and yes, Luffy defeats his ennemy through that means. But his way of saving people is not through a fight, but through his true and genuine kindness.
The fight are just an extention of his toolbox. THis is why the story must always focus more on the emotions and characterizations rather than battles.
And that's why One Piece is a shonen manga... with battle inside of it. The nuance is important because it shows what the author really values.
Gladius was created to parralel the story of Bartho.
Both are opposites: bartho can create a barriere to defend himself and Gladius can attack everything by blowing himself up. The question is what happen's when the character in question (Bartho) need to defends himself AND defend someone that he cares about (Robin).. Well, Bartho stop being selfish (his basic characterization) and puts a barrier between him + his adversary and the one he cares about. THus by letting himself be wounded.
Again.. storytelling mate. One Piece is all in the details.
No. It was also used against Franky. Since Franky and Senior pink's style is catch, the analogy is perfect.
Yes, but Luffy is on a completely different level.
It's not supposed to be deep, it's a simple joke irony mate. And yes, fire IS the weakness of his power, even if he uses it.
In this case it does.
You see.. something you are missing is that the connection doesn't need to be intentional by Oda. to be there or to make sence for people. In fact I'm sure there are thing that Oda didn't think about that are COMPLETELY here. Simply because he is not all knowing but as any human, he makes logical connections that we can catch. Here, the wax - even if not done on purpose - perfectly adds weight to the thematic of the arc : Something stuck in place, waved by time and fire.
I think it's on purpose, it's seems too obvious for me, but even if it's not, it does not matter mate. The purpose is still here.
With Dellinger it's not about the kicks. it's about the character. Dellinger is one of the four kids of the Doffy family and the youngest one. Everything he knows comes from dofflamingo and his mates. This is why Oda pushed the bar on his psychopathy. Remember, we just finished an arc (fishmen island) where the point was to show to children a good example or they will turn bad because of their education and environment only. Dellinger is exactly that, the perfect reflect of Doflamingo, born in oppulence and cynicism. (in fact I think Oda literally made Dellinger a fishmen to follow up on that point I'm making)
You know. There is a few step in the life of someone who learn storytelling through stories through the teaching of other people:
- "Oh !? So he meant that ? Cool !"
- "BS ! This teacher is completely dumb, he is overcomplicating the story to find connections"
- "Wait ?! This story is structure is that way, it can't be a coincidence and there is more !"
- "Am I crazy or did this author really meant that ?"
- "WTF, it's so much deeper than I ever though"
- "I know everything and yet I know nothing ! Time to watch the analysis of other people !"
You are in the second phase. I might be simply unable to show you what I'm seeing, it's possible, I'm not good at explaining this. But trust me, I'm not overcomplicating things AT ALL.
In fact, I'm stayin really on the surface here. And this is why I know for a fact that a fight without substance can't work. Because there is not even meaning on the SURFACE level.
It was. The only way those agent were effective was when the character were immobilized. This was really THE joke.
Oda jokes EVERYTIMES with the name and abilities of his characters. Not only that but he find a way to use those joke for narrative purposes. This is why it's so good :)
If you think that what Oda did and simply did not care to actually use his power to tell something (when it's actually obvious he did).. think what you want mate. What do you want me to say... ?
Again.. you are proving what I say. You are in the face "you are just over reaching to find connections".
You know for a fact that Oda will use EVERYTHING to create storytelling
You know for a fact that Oda create AMAZING stories even with the tinest details
You know for a fact that Oda loves to play with words, names and abilities
You know for a fact that his jokes will pretty much always be used to narrate something (ex Sanji in fishmen Island)
You know for a fact that ALL One Piece stories come back around at the end and Oda loves to create narrative justice
But... when I tell you that a man named DIAMANTe who can make every thing go hard, a murderer who demolished a family and killed a mother, who made iron urchins rain down from the sky on a armorless father standing still out of will in front of his daughter who he tried to killed... was striked down by the father and symbolically knock down by the mother because of the wooden stick of the mother's grave .... and that was made on purpose....
... you are telling me that I'm "chatGPT" or that I'm overconnecting or overanalysing the story ?
Bro... everything here is meant to be OBVIOUS.
Yes.. because it was another lesson.
The first (with Vergo) was meant to make people the point behind Haki and will.
The second (with Katakuri) was meant to show that some stronger form of Haki are possible. (better technics, Ryo)
Something people didn't notice in this fight:
Is that... Jinbe ..
Completely lost his cool during that interaction....
He was NOT HAPPY...
AT ALL !!
Who's who taunted Jinbe on the history of slavery of his race. This is why Jinbe went serious. And choosed to tanked all his attack.
Jinbe here made a point that what Who's who was saying had would not put him down but strenghen him.
It was a very simple thing. The reason why Who's who lost is because he went over the line.
Sure. Keep thinking like that. I'm sure you will have a fun time enjoying stories in the future.
no. I'm simply explaining that Oda choosed to use battle in a more effective way than generic shonen mangas.
I don't really have the will to make the search but yeah.
Understand the nuance I make when I say that One Piece is not a battle shonen manga but a shonen with battles in it.
You will understand a LOT of things about One Piece this way.
Battle shonen means that the battle are the motor of the story.
In One Piece, it's the opposite. It's the story that is the motor.
A Battle shonen will only be good if the BATTLE is the point of the manga and assumed as such. If the manga tries to tell a story but see the battle as a motor, it will create a bad story and a boring battle.
On the other hand, if the point of the battle shonen manga is to make a great battle and show how this battle shape the characters, then it will make an AMAZING manga.
If you want to understand the difference in storytelling:
- Death Note is a battle shonen Manga. > The battle creates the story.
- One Piece is a shonen with battles inside of it. > The story creates the battles.
Do you understand the difference ?
This fight had a purpose : Show that Luffy is not on the same level anymore and is far beyond people with strong abilities.
This battle was a way to confirm Luffy as a Yonko.
Carrot CAN fly.
This is an ability created as a play on a legend about flying rabbits.
This is an fan fic adaptation. So technically nothing is really "wrong" here But if this was a work meant to really copy and extend Oda's work here are a few things that need rework and rewrite:
> There is FAR TOO MUCH Screentones at the wrong places.
Here is what screentones are:
Oda uses screentones with very specific purposes. Those screentones are very high resolution and they are mixed with texturing by pen. The BIGGEST use for screentones in One Piece is to create a contrast between the foregrounds and background characters since One Piece panel are often crawded. Or to create a more appealing image within a very white panel. In other word, screentones in One Piece are here to create readability !
Here for example, Oda is using it to create a dynamic in the image, and make the subject (the island) stand out:
Here, for ex, screentones are applied to push Robin and Jinbe into the foreground. And to render the Giants more readable:
This value contrast is a common composition technique in painting. The idea is to create a real distinction between the foreground, the subject/midground and the background. That way, the image will read much better and the story told will be stronger:
In manga, there is not a lot of choice, that's why you really have only two value to work with. But if you do the job good enough, you can create the illusion of shading:
Sometimes Oda allow himself and his team to go a little overboard with screentones. This is the case with Big Impactfull set like in this case:
But as you can see. Screentones are used very lightly, they almost mix with the pen shading. And when used on character, said shading is very light as well, almost invisible.
Overall Oda uses screentones to create contrast between the layers of the image. Sometimes he will use them on the foreground and sometimes on the background, depending on what he wants to highlight.
BUT RARELY.. will he uses screentones to creates big volumes on the characters.
Trying to create volumes with screentones is actually quite a rookie mangaka mistake when done that way. New artists discover those tool early and they go crazy with them, thinking that they will be able to use it to create more "cool" scenes. And this is what we can see here:
But in reality, when used that way.screentones do not create more readability but the opposite. They over complicates the drawing and if the context is not suitable for such usage, the screentones will create distanciation between the drawings and the story and pull the readers back.
Here, for example, there is no reason to create such volumes. Kizaru does not light the scene in that panel and this lightning is therefore purely for impact purpose. But the way those screentones are used here make the character appear as ghost and not really on the scene.
To shade Kizaru's light and powerfull attacks, Oda mostly uses shading and strong contrast or full screentones mixed with shadings.
And he does not always create the light effect.
So to sum up on screentones:
> Far too much and in the wrong places. Overusage in general that creates a lack of constrast between the layers of the image.
> They are used without subtility which create an impression of fake shading
> Oda is not afraid to let character in white and only with lines. It allows better readability.
> The Lines are unprecise and TOO THIN
When you start to draw a manga, there is something that you need to take into account and it's the line weights of your lines for you landscape AND your characters. In One Piece, those lines weight can vary in function of the layer of the image and the impact of the subject BUT, they are almost always thick when it comes to characters. That's one of the particularity of One Piece. (and one of the reason why I have some problems with other manga in fact)
In One Piece, the usage of the clear line technique is fundamental. The lines are homogeneous and this creates a feeling of strong presence for characters. Oda might use thiner lines for his landscape (especially in early One Piece), but not for his character or for details INSIDE the character's design (hairs, cloth lines etc.).
Compare the lines in between those two panels and you will understand what I mean by that:
The thin lines of this fan art panels lowers the impact of the action and creates an impression of instability of the characters. (Also note the problem of value in the panel I choosed from the fanart, the values are all over the place - surely because the mangaka might have wanted to reproduced the effect of Prometheus's lighthing - and this result in an uneasy panel without a clear subject)
In contrary, the thin line weight of Oda anchor the character in the space and creates more impact and a more cartoony feel that is very important with the design of One Piece and its storytelling in general.
> The physical features are WAY TOO PRONOUNCED.
One piece was created to have a cartoony feels.
While yes, bodies and volumes are present in character designs. It's RARE AS F. to have realistic facial characteristics depicted in the manga. All the shapes, even with characters with complicated faces like Kizaru or Akainu, are reduced to the maximum.
Real facial details happens in reality only in moments when Oda really want to portray the details of ALL the expressions of the face. This differences in details therefore shock the reader and render said panels iconics:
The problem with this fan creation, is that the facial expression and details are pushed WAY too much over the entire chapters.
This creates a impression taht we are reading more something closer to a seinen than a One Piece story. Added to that the overdosage of screentones and very small lines, this create the impression that the author doesn't really know what they want to draw.
Now. I applaud the effort of trying to applicate the rough lines aspect of the work of Oda. Especially in the movement. I think this would be rendered better with fewer and more thicker lines.
(this first panel of Kizaru for example, could be more "One Piece - ish" with more thick lines, without the screentones and with less but more effective lines (some of those double lines could be just one line, some shapes are not necessary etc.).
(I'm not saying it's a bad drawing. That's actually one of the best fan made Kizaru I've ever seen, I'm just trying to tell what a more One Piece Kizaru should look like)
> Screentones, again..
I want to come back here on the screentones and one specific usage: The background.
One Piece is a very bright manga. This means that EVEN when the character are interacting at nightime, Oda will NOT darken the sky or the background unless he has too to make the shot really pop or when he is directly showing a character under big clouds.
He will most likely create one setting panel, like this one :
And sometimes remind us of this setting.
But most panels will be like that:
It's also worth noting that the screentone used will apppear as a simple grey tone and not at all as a grid.
That's why shot like this can't really happen in One Piece:
In reality. if Oda drew this (which would be weird because he would probably not do this type of panelling (I'll come back later to that) he would instead let the background completely blank white. And put Big Mom in screentones or even in very dark shading (besides the eyes and the mouth maybe) and highlight Napoleon.
As you can see here, the background doesn't serve Napoleon, in simply creates a texture that is a bit distracting. In fact Napoleon was already introduced in the story. This means that there is no need for Oda to create such an empathis on the weapong. A very small panel (with Napoleon cut would be enough (I will once again come back to that).
> Random thoughts
- The haki is especially in the case of Big Mom, feels too much like fan art and not really OP. The strenght of Big Mom do not really reside in her Haki, but her strenght and defense.. Thus showing her Haki like the panel just above is kinda weird. Even with Zoro or other big swordmans, Oda really does not push that lighting too far. He will draw clash, but very rarely just random sparks.
- There are good things, especially in the grainy feel of explosions. Those could very well be done by Oda.
- There is a lack of coherency in the page. Especially in value. Sometimes it's bright, sometimes its dark. It doesn't help the readability. In One Piece, entire page feels like a big Panel cut by borders and the changes in value are not that pronounced..
There are things that are drawn that would never be drawn in One Piece:
- This, for example, would be VERY different and stylized in OP, you would not have those details on the teeth or on the skin :
(great drawing tho, that's what I'm talking about when I say that there should be more contrast, as you can see here, the exterior lines are more heavy that the interior ones)
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OUTLINING:
> The Panelling is not comparable and would not work in One Piece
One Piece, despite being overally revolutionnary in term of storytelling is primarly very classical in a lot of aspect. And one of those aspect is the paneling.
Oda simply will not create hyper fancy panels. The reason for that is once the again the readability. Oda does not aim to create emotions through the forms of his panels but through the actions and emotions of his characters. For that, there needs to be as less matter as possible in between the reader and what is inside the panel.
So while Oda might create a few distorded panels here and there for brief moments of action, most of his panels will be rectangular.
> The problem with this fan fic is that ALL the panels are distorded. And if all the panels are distorded, there is no rythm anymore. We create distorded panel because we have non distorded ones. But if all the pages are wacky, the actions will feel exhausting.
> Another problem is that there are sometimes overlaps between panels and the main subject of the page. Like this for ex:
You can see that the smoke and clouds are overlapping UNDER up and down panels and it feels like the panels are just hanging on the pages. This is something Oda tends to avoid. What he will do is usually prevent the drawing from going too far and create a foggy white limit for his big subject on the page.
Here for example, the banquet scene is distinct from other panels by a fine white blank frontiere and the in between space is white:
> Another other problem is the lack of the passage of space and time. As you can see in the panel just above. Oda creates a very brief transition in term of panelling that is very important to understand the passage to a very different time or a very different place or scene. This fan art lacks that. The the scene are meshed together when there should be a ellipse at the beginning. (I would have also added one just after the first panel of the Big Mom pirates, the transition between the presentation of the pirates and the arrival of Kizaru is a bit abrupt)
In reality, if this was One Piece, this fight would have been cut a LOT (because a lot of things here are unecessary, but I will come back to that later) and an elipse should be present during the fight with a scene in between. Again, the reason being readability must most of all, rythm and clarity.
> A lack of creative composition
You might not notice it. But one of the big strenght of One Piece, is the creativity inside of of its panels. Especially those who are meant to be impactfull.
Those compositions are taking a few things into account in OP:
- The speech bubble (very important)
- The movements inside the panels
- The emotion that must be delivered
- OTHER panels next to said panel in the same page
- The importance of the panel in a cinematographic vision (for ex, a reaction shot, will not be as important as a strike or a revelation in a fight)
> The first problem with this fan art is the choices of composition that are not necessary:
Let's take a few example:
Here, the mangaka is losing an ENTIRE page by trying to put the character into the light. But they loses a lot of narration by doing that and it creates a lack of "wow" effect and mystery.
In reality, what Oda would do in that situation, is use the first page and the majority of the second page and put everything into one single page while playing with the panels to creates rythm and more storytelling.
The fact that we see Kizaru here, is fine, but not really enticing in the context. What would be better here, is not to see Kizaru and just imply the fact that he will go. Therefore we don't need the bubble sayin "you can go" since the arrival of Kizaru will be a shock moment.
Same thing, we don't need that Marine vice Ad to state the Big Mom meeting with Kaido, it can simply be a bubble over a building to let us know where we are.
Also, we need to create transition and elipsis
Here is an outlining of this moment that would be a lot closer to One Piece:
This is a very rapid sketch but you should understand the majority. I used here a few of Oda's techniques:
- Quick small panel to set the place of a dialogue while delivering an information "big mom and Kaido will meet"
- A character in shadow asking to go. This creates mystery and expectation at the same time.
- Kizaru instead of reacting to the new, is reacting to Kizaru and do not object, which means that we understand that he approves
- Little vertical panels to creates a change of time and space
- Big Mom in our face. This allow the person who flip the page to understand directly the subject of the conversation of the marine without even reading the bubble.
- Instead of having a big panel on her eyes, Oda tend to create build up to those end of phrases. So here, I put a build up of all the senior officer of Big Mom, daifuku, Oven, Pero Katakuri (purpusefully in shadow, this creates rythm and a bit of mystery among a overview of characters, another Oda technique) and finally the eye and the final "I can't wait".
- I ended that with an elipse to make the reader understand that between the arrival of Big Mom and the moment where Perospero encounter Kizaru, there will be a little bit of time. This lower the abruptness of Kizaru's arrival.
- Ideally, there should be a dialogue between the Big Mom pirates after that page and Kizaru should appear on the third page (we should only have Perospero being very surprised on the last panel of the second page)
One of the core of One Piece is the choice of conscision through composition AND the outlining of the panels to create a story inside a story INSIDE a page and sometimes even inside a panel.
Everything must tell a story in One Piece
Fan arts tends to forget that and create panels or composition that are simply not needed and just slow down the reading. And I can see those lack of conscision quite a bit in that fan art.
> There is a problem of coherency between certain panels
This is not something that I can see everywhere on this fan art but this was impactfull enough to make me tick.
Let's take a simple example:
Here, Big Mom is attacking KIzaru from the right to the left and from the top to the bottom. The first three Panels are therefore coherent.
The problem is that the third is not. Instead of going toward the bottom left of the page, Kizaru is going to the bottom right.
This is a problem of coherency and movement connection. Just like in Cinema, panels in manga needs to stay coherent between themselves. This means that here, the change in direction will surely lose some readers.
Instead what would have been better is to reduce the interaction on top of the page to one single of Kizaru taunting Big Mom and instead of having her reply something a bit out of character, make her reply by punching KIzaru toward the ship.
> One panel top right "You shoulf surrender Big Mom"
> One middle top panel : Big Mom hitting Kizaru who blocks "Don't ..."
> One top left panel : The parry breaks
> The entire rest of the page page would be Big Mom in the middle top hitting Big Mom toward the ship in the middle down of the page. (and therefore not toward the right but toward the middle) "... underestimate me.. Brat!"
This is something Oda does a lot to create impactfull punchlines. he make character replies through the hits and the impact of said hit.
Because the important thing here is not the hit itself, it's the fact that Big mom refuses to be talked down by Kizaru who she consideres as a brat in the story (like many other characters).
Again, always think about the story. If you create a One Piece story and your hits or powermoves are the story then it means that there is something wrong.
> NO STORY
I just talked about it but I will go in more detail here. One of my biggest problem with fan arts is that they tend to overshadow completely the most IMPORTANT aspect of One Piece: The story.
What did those chapters tell us ?
In reality not so much
We have a fight taking place and Big Mom and Kizaru are pretty much on par. But aside from that, there is no story. This is a simple brawl.
This is why you will never see those type of fight in One Piece because Oda always tell us something. Even when he make the fight go for more times he shows us that the characters is learning or evolves or gain power.
But here it's just techniques after techniques. It might appear cool but it has no real value as a One Piece story. Worst, most of the fight is in reality not needed and could be cut down drastically.
Some pages, like those one for example are not necessary :
(and I just selected a few but a lot of things here would never be depicted, or be cut down with other scenes to create rythm).
A lot of people think that a long fight is more impactfull, but in reality it just create a situation where techniques are stacked up without real interest and creates a lack of rythm that is in in fact fundamental to One Piece.
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NARRATION:
> The narration is similar to a lot of battle manga - Too generic.
deeOne Piece distinguish it self by the fact that Oda does not treat fights like other manga. While he might use som tropes like making the ennemy explains his powers or the character have an inside conversation with himself to find a parade.. he will not overdo it and usually created that in a way to create more narration and develop the characters and their characterizations.
The problem here is that some dialogues of this fan art are thrown in a generic shonen fashion..
Let's take this page for example :
Here this page didn't need those bubble. Katakuri here is oversharing, this is out of character since he is quite a stoic character.. What we needed to understand in that panel are two things :
- Katakuri tried to see in the future
- And failed.
Technically this many panel would not appear in One Piece, but even if we keep them, some bubble are not necessary. The first ones for example could be cut out. And instead of a bubble saying "this vision, I can't make any thing out.. " what Katakuri should be saying here is "Let me see y.." (so that we understand that he is arrogant still but he does not have time to finish his sentence).. but since he fails... the last panel - instead of being "it's too fast to comprehend" should be a simple "What !?" and instead of having his eyes in shadow. His eyes should be wide open and surprised.
This narration would be closer to the character and would create more impact and less useless bubbles.
We need to remember that drawing a page takes time. Time is too valuable to be wasted. So each dialogues must concise to the maximum, just like in Cinema and be important for the narration.
There is a lot more example of that in this fan art but I think you get the point.
> The narration is out of character
As demonstrated previously, there is a few problem with the characterization and the development of dialogue with the character.
> Katakuri is not stoic enough. I should not wonder in his thought too much and be very effective. He is a bit of an oversharer too. For example, there is no reason why he should say "with my level of future sight, I can morph around anything you throw at me" UNLESS, the character starts to understand his power.
Here, for example, a better dialogue with his characterization would be. "Your speed won't help you" >> which will be proven false and therefore create an irony.
> Kizaru is well written. Aside from the fact that he has power that should not exist. It's a good portrayal of the character.
> Big Mom suffers from the same problem as Katakuri. But this time, she lacks her arrogance. Big Mom should be much more menacing when we first see her against Kizaru.
This interaction for ex:
.. is quite out of character. Big Mom is not someone who talks about her power, she shows them. This explaination comes out of left field. There is no need for Big Mom to say anything here. We see her infused fist, we don't need to be sure.
Something that Oda does a lot is let his reader figures out the situations and powers (that's why there is so much powerscaling discussion). It's much more interesting to be subtle about powers than to tell everything (unless the character discovers something new and we need to know it, like Luffy learning that he can infuse his conqueror haki into his fists)
> The powerscaling is not really believable
That's a bit more subjective but with what we know about One Piece. This fight does not really make sence. While Kizaru might be able to hold himself a bit against Big Mom. he should not be able to give her such problems.
It seems like this fight was created by a fan of Kizaru who just wanted him to shine a little bit more.
But the interesting thing with Kizaru is not his powers but his inner conflict with Justice and his characterization. What is really interesting is the fact that he will try to keep face even in the most difficult moments.
Some of the technics used are cool, not gonna lie (I love "Hand of Amaterasu" for ex) but they are not consistant with the story. This therefore break the reading process. (Even if I applaud the creativity of the moves, nice job)
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SUM UP
So to sum everything up:
I get the idea behind this fan art, and once again I APPLAUD the effort. Really a good job (even if I criticized it in a One Piece context), but if One Piece was really like that, you could say bye bye to it's value. It would be a fan service fest and this would remove all the flavor of the story.
One Piece is One Piece not only because of the foreshadowing or a cool story. It's one Piece because of a hundreds of littles details:
- The pannelling
- The coherency of the outlining
- The consistancy and conscision of the dialogue and the storytelling
- The choices of composition and bubble
- The characterization
- The type of line art used
- The screentones and their usage
- The rythm
Etc.
The strenght of Oda is in the details.
ART:> There is FAR TOO MUCH Screentones at the wrong places.
Here is what screentones are:
Oda uses screentones with very specific purposes. Those screentones are very high resolution and they are mixed with texturing by pen. The BIGGEST use for screentones in One Piece is to create a contrast between the foregrounds and background characters since One Piece panel are often crawded. Or to create a more appealing image within a very white panel. In other word, screentones in One Piece are here to create readability !
Here for example, Oda is using it to create a dynamic in the image, and make the subject (the island) stand out:
Here, for ex, screentones are applied to push Robin and Jinbe into the foreground. And to render the Giants more readable:
This value contrast is a common composition technique in painting. The idea is to create a real distinction between the foreground, the subject/midground and the background. That way, the image will read much better and the story told will be stronger:
In manga, there is not a lot of choice, that's why you really have only two value to work with. But if you do the job good enough, you can create the illusion of shading:
Sometimes Oda allow himself and his team to go a little overboard with screentones. This is the case with Big Impactfull set like in this case:
But as you can see. Screentones are used very lightly, they almost mix with the pen shading. And when used on character, said shading is very light as well, almost invisible.
Overall Oda uses screentones to create contrast between the layers of the image. Sometimes he will use them on the foreground and sometimes on the background, depending on what he wants to highlight.
BUT RARELY.. will he uses screentones to creates big volumes on the characters.
Trying to create volumes with screentones is actually quite a rookie mangaka mistake when done that way. New artists discover those tool early and they go crazy with them, thinking that they will be able to use it to create more "cool" scenes. And this is what we can see here:
But in reality, when used that way.screentones do not create more readability but the opposite. They over complicates the drawing and if the context is not suitable for such usage, the screentones will create distanciation between the drawings and the story and pull the readers back.
Here, for example, there is no reason to create such volumes. Kizaru does not light the scene in that panel and this lightning is therefore purely for impact purpose. But the way those screentones are used here make the character appear as ghost and not really on the scene.
To shade Kizaru's light and powerfull attacks, Oda mostly uses shading and strong contrast or full screentones mixed with shadings.
And he does not always create the light effect.
So to sum up on screentones:
> Far too much and in the wrong places. Overusage in general that creates a lack of constrast between the layers of the image.
> They are used without subtility which create an impression of fake shading
> Oda is not afraid to let character in white and only with lines. It allows better readability.
> The Lines are unprecise and TOO THIN
When you start to draw a manga, there is something that you need to take into account and it's the line weights of your lines for you landscape AND your characters. In One Piece, those lines weight can vary in function of the layer of the image and the impact of the subject BUT, they are almost always thick when it comes to characters. That's one of the particularity of One Piece. (and one of the reason why I have some problems with other manga in fact)
In One Piece, the usage of the clear line technique is fundamental. The lines are homogeneous and this creates a feeling of strong presence for characters. Oda might use thiner lines for his landscape (especially in early One Piece), but not for his character or for details INSIDE the character's design (hairs, cloth lines etc.).
Compare the lines in between those two panels and you will understand what I mean by that:
The thin lines of this fan art panels lowers the impact of the action and creates an impression of instability of the characters. (Also note the problem of value in the panel I choosed from the fanart, the values are all over the place - surely because the mangaka might have wanted to reproduced the effect of Prometheus's lighthing - and this result in an uneasy panel without a clear subject)
In contrary, the thin line weight of Oda anchor the character in the space and creates more impact and a more cartoony feel that is very important with the design of One Piece and its storytelling in general.
> The physical features are WAY TOO PRONOUNCED.
One piece was created to have a cartoony feels.
While yes, bodies and volumes are present in character designs. It's RARE AS F. to have realistic facial characteristics depicted in the manga. All the shapes, even with characters with complicated faces like Kizaru or Akainu, are reduced to the maximum.
Real facial details happens in reality only in moments when Oda really want to portray the details of ALL the expressions of the face. This differences in details therefore shock the reader and render said panels iconics:
The problem with this fan creation, is that the facial expression and details are pushed WAY too much over the entire chapters.
This creates a impression taht we are reading more something closer to a seinen than a One Piece story. Added to that the overdosage of screentones and very small lines, this create the impression that the author doesn't really know what they want to draw.
Now. I applaud the effort of trying to applicate the rough lines aspect of the work of Oda. Especially in the movement. I think this would be rendered better with fewer and more thicker lines.
(this first panel of Kizaru for example, could be more "One Piece - ish" with more thick lines, without the screentones and with less but more effective lines (some of those double lines could be just one line, some shapes are not necessary etc.).
(I'm not saying it's a bad drawing. That's actually one of the best fan made Kizaru I've ever seen, I'm just trying to tell what a more One Piece Kizaru should look like)
> Screentones, again..
I want to come back here on the screentones and one specific usage: The background.
One Piece is a very bright manga. This means that EVEN when the character are interacting at nightime, Oda will NOT darken the sky or the background unless he has too to make the shot really pop or when he is directly showing a character under big clouds.
He will most likely create one setting panel, like this one :
And sometimes remind us of this setting.
But most panels will be like that:
It's also worth noting that the screentone used will apppear as a simple grey tone and not at all as a grid.
That's why shot like this can't really happen in One Piece:
In reality. if Oda drew this (which would be weird because he would probably not do this type of panelling (I'll come back later to that) he would instead let the background completely blank white. And put Big Mom in screentones or even in very dark shading (besides the eyes and the mouth maybe) and highlight Napoleon.
As you can see here, the background doesn't serve Napoleon, in simply creates a texture that is a bit distracting. In fact Napoleon was already introduced in the story. This means that there is no need for Oda to create such an empathis on the weapong. A very small panel (with Napoleon cut would be enough (I will once again come back to that).
> Random thoughts
- The haki is especially in the case of Big Mom, feels too much like fan art and not really OP. The strenght of Big Mom do not really reside in her Haki, but her strenght and defense.. Thus showing her Haki like the panel just above is kinda weird. Even with Zoro or other big swordmans, Oda really does not push that lighting too far. He will draw clash, but very rarely just random sparks.
- There are good things, especially in the grainy feel of explosions. Those could very well be done by Oda.
- There is a lack of coherency in the page. Especially in value. Sometimes it's bright, sometimes its dark. It doesn't help the readability. In One Piece, entire page feels like a big Panel cut by borders and the changes in value are not that pronounced..
There are things that are drawn that would never be drawn in One Piece:
- This, for example, would be VERY different and stylized in OP, you would not have those details on the teeth or on the skin :
(great drawing tho, that's what I'm talking about when I say that there should be more contrast, as you can see here, the exterior lines are more heavy that the interior ones)
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OUTLINING:
> The Panelling is not comparable and would not work in One Piece
One Piece, despite being overally revolutionnary in term of storytelling is primarly very classical in a lot of aspect. And one of those aspect is the paneling.
Oda simply will not create hyper fancy panels. The reason for that is once the again the readability. Oda does not aim to create emotions through the forms of his panels but through the actions and emotions of his characters. For that, there needs to be as less matter as possible in between the reader and what is inside the panel.
So while Oda might create a few distorded panels here and there for brief moments of action, most of his panels will be rectangular.
> The problem with this fan fic is that ALL the panels are distorded. And if all the panels are distorded, there is no rythm anymore. We create distorded panel because we have non distorded ones. But if all the pages are wacky, the actions will feel exhausting.
> Another problem is that there are sometimes overlaps between panels and the main subject of the page. Like this for ex:
You can see that the smoke and clouds are overlapping UNDER up and down panels and it feels like the panels are just hanging on the pages. This is something Oda tends to avoid. What he will do is usually prevent the drawing from going too far and create a foggy white limit for his big subject on the page.
Here for example, the banquet scene is distinct from other panels by a fine white blank frontiere and the in between space is white:
> Another other problem is the lack of the passage of space and time. As you can see in the panel just above. Oda creates a very brief transition in term of panelling that is very important to understand the passage to a very different time or a very different place or scene. This fan art lacks that. The the scene are meshed together when there should be a ellipse at the beginning. (I would have also added one just after the first panel of the Big Mom pirates, the transition between the presentation of the pirates and the arrival of Kizaru is a bit abrupt)
In reality, if this was One Piece, this fight would have been cut a LOT (because a lot of things here are unecessary, but I will come back to that later) and an elipse should be present during the fight with a scene in between. Again, the reason being readability must most of all, rythm and clarity.
> A lack of creative composition
You might not notice it. But one of the big strenght of One Piece, is the creativity inside of of its panels. Especially those who are meant to be impactfull.
Those compositions are taking a few things into account in OP:
- The speech bubble (very important)
- The movements inside the panels
- The emotion that must be delivered
- OTHER panels next to said panel in the same page
- The importance of the panel in a cinematographic vision (for ex, a reaction shot, will not be as important as a strike or a revelation in a fight)
> The first problem with this fan art is the choices of composition that are not necessary:
Let's take a few example:
Here, the mangaka is losing an ENTIRE page by trying to put the character into the light. But they loses a lot of narration by doing that and it creates a lack of "wow" effect and mystery.
In reality, what Oda would do in that situation, is use the first page and the majority of the second page and put everything into one single page while playing with the panels to creates rythm and more storytelling.
The fact that we see Kizaru here, is fine, but not really enticing in the context. What would be better here, is not to see Kizaru and just imply the fact that he will go. Therefore we don't need the bubble sayin "you can go" since the arrival of Kizaru will be a shock moment.
Same thing, we don't need that Marine vice Ad to state the Big Mom meeting with Kaido, it can simply be a bubble over a building to let us know where we are.
Also, we need to create transition and elipsis
Here is an outlining of this moment that would be a lot closer to One Piece:
This is a very rapid sketch but you should understand the majority. I used here a few of Oda's techniques:
- Quick small panel to set the place of a dialogue while delivering an information "big mom and Kaido will meet"
- A character in shadow asking to go. This creates mystery and expectation at the same time.
- Kizaru instead of reacting to the new, is reacting to Kizaru and do not object, which means that we understand that he approves
- Little vertical panels to creates a change of time and space
- Big Mom in our face. This allow the person who flip the page to understand directly the subject of the conversation of the marine without even reading the bubble.
- Instead of having a big panel on her eyes, Oda tend to create build up to those end of phrases. So here, I put a build up of all the senior officer of Big Mom, daifuku, Oven, Pero Katakuri (purpusefully in shadow, this creates rythm and a bit of mystery among a overview of characters, another Oda technique) and finally the eye and the final "I can't wait".
- I ended that with an elipse to make the reader understand that between the arrival of Big Mom and the moment where Perospero encounter Kizaru, there will be a little bit of time. This lower the abruptness of Kizaru's arrival.
- Ideally, there should be a dialogue between the Big Mom pirates after that page and Kizaru should appear on the third page (we should only have Perospero being very surprised on the last panel of the second page)
One of the core of One Piece is the choice of conscision through composition AND the outlining of the panels to create a story inside a story INSIDE a page and sometimes even inside a panel.
Everything must tell a story in One Piece
Fan arts tends to forget that and create panels or composition that are simply not needed and just slow down the reading. And I can see those lack of conscision quite a bit in that fan art.
> There is a problem of coherency between certain panels
This is not something that I can see everywhere on this fan art but this was impactfull enough to make me tick.
Let's take a simple example:
Here, Big Mom is attacking KIzaru from the right to the left and from the top to the bottom. The first three Panels are therefore coherent.
The problem is that the third is not. Instead of going toward the bottom left of the page, Kizaru is going to the bottom right.
This is a problem of coherency and movement connection. Just like in Cinema, panels in manga needs to stay coherent between themselves. This means that here, the change in direction will surely lose some readers.
Instead what would have been better is to reduce the interaction on top of the page to one single of Kizaru taunting Big Mom and instead of having her reply something a bit out of character, make her reply by punching KIzaru toward the ship.
> One panel top right "You shoulf surrender Big Mom"
> One middle top panel : Big Mom hitting Kizaru who blocks "Don't ..."
> One top left panel : The parry breaks
> The entire rest of the page page would be Big Mom in the middle top hitting Big Mom toward the ship in the middle down of the page. (and therefore not toward the right but toward the middle) "... underestimate me.. Brat!"
This is something Oda does a lot to create impactfull punchlines. he make character replies through the hits and the impact of said hit.
Because the important thing here is not the hit itself, it's the fact that Big mom refuses to be talked down by Kizaru who she consideres as a brat in the story (like many other characters).
Again, always think about the story. If you create a One Piece story and your hits or powermoves are the story then it means that there is something wrong.
> NO STORY
I just talked about it but I will go in more detail here. One of my biggest problem with fan arts is that they tend to overshadow completely the most IMPORTANT aspect of One Piece: The story.
What did those chapters tell us ?
In reality not so much
We have a fight taking place and Big Mom and Kizaru are pretty much on par. But aside from that, there is no story. This is a simple brawl.
This is why you will never see those type of fight in One Piece because Oda always tell us something. Even when he make the fight go for more times he shows us that the characters is learning or evolves or gain power.
But here it's just techniques after techniques. It might appear cool but it has no real value as a One Piece story. Worst, most of the fight is in reality not needed and could be cut down drastically.
Some pages, like those one for example are not necessary :
(and I just selected a few but a lot of things here would never be depicted, or be cut down with other scenes to create rythm).
A lot of people think that a long fight is more impactfull, but in reality it just create a situation where techniques are stacked up without real interest and creates a lack of rythm that is in in fact fundamental to One Piece.
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NARRATION:
> The narration is similar to a lot of battle manga - Too generic.
deeOne Piece distinguish it self by the fact that Oda does not treat fights like other manga. While he might use som tropes like making the ennemy explains his powers or the character have an inside conversation with himself to find a parade.. he will not overdo it and usually created that in a way to create more narration and develop the characters and their characterizations.
The problem here is that some dialogues of this fan art are thrown in a generic shonen fashion..
Let's take this page for example :
Here this page didn't need those bubble. Katakuri here is oversharing, this is out of character since he is quite a stoic character.. What we needed to understand in that panel are two things :
- Katakuri tried to see in the future
- And failed.
Technically this many panel would not appear in One Piece, but even if we keep them, some bubble are not necessary. The first ones for example could be cut out. And instead of a bubble saying "this vision, I can't make any thing out.. " what Katakuri should be saying here is "Let me see y.." (so that we understand that he is arrogant still but he does not have time to finish his sentence).. but since he fails... the last panel - instead of being "it's too fast to comprehend" should be a simple "What !?" and instead of having his eyes in shadow. His eyes should be wide open and surprised.
This narration would be closer to the character and would create more impact and less useless bubbles.
We need to remember that drawing a page takes time. Time is too valuable to be wasted. So each dialogues must concise to the maximum, just like in Cinema and be important for the narration.
There is a lot more example of that in this fan art but I think you get the point.
> The narration is out of character
As demonstrated previously, there is a few problem with the characterization and the development of dialogue with the character.
> Katakuri is not stoic enough. I should not wonder in his thought too much and be very effective. He is a bit of an oversharer too. For example, there is no reason why he should say "with my level of future sight, I can morph around anything you throw at me" UNLESS, the character starts to understand his power.
Here, for example, a better dialogue with his characterization would be. "Your speed won't help you" >> which will be proven false and therefore create an irony.
> Kizaru is well written. Aside from the fact that he has power that should not exist. It's a good portrayal of the character.
> Big Mom suffers from the same problem as Katakuri. But this time, she lacks her arrogance. Big Mom should be much more menacing when we first see her against Kizaru.
This interaction for ex:
.. is quite out of character. Big Mom is not someone who talks about her power, she shows them. This explaination comes out of left field. There is no need for Big Mom to say anything here. We see her infused fist, we don't need to be sure.
Something that Oda does a lot is let his reader figures out the situations and powers (that's why there is so much powerscaling discussion). It's much more interesting to be subtle about powers than to tell everything (unless the character discovers something new and we need to know it, like Luffy learning that he can infuse his conqueror haki into his fists)
> The powerscaling is not really believable
That's a bit more subjective but with what we know about One Piece. This fight does not really make sence. While Kizaru might be able to hold himself a bit against Big Mom. he should not be able to give her such problems.
It seems like this fight was created by a fan of Kizaru who just wanted him to shine a little bit more.
But the interesting thing with Kizaru is not his powers but his inner conflict with Justice and his characterization. What is really interesting is the fact that he will try to keep face even in the most difficult moments.
Some of the technics used are cool, not gonna lie (I love "Hand of Amaterasu" for ex) but they are not consistant with the story. This therefore break the reading process. (Even if I applaud the creativity of the moves, nice job)
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SUM UP
So to sum everything up:
I get the idea behind this fan art, and once again I APPLAUD the effort. Really a good job (even if I criticized it in a One Piece context), but if One Piece was really like that, you could say bye bye to it's value. It would be a fan service fest and this would remove all the flavor of the story.
One Piece is One Piece not only because of the foreshadowing or a cool story. It's one Piece because of a hundreds of littles details:
- The pannelling
- The coherency of the outlining
- The consistancy and conscision of the dialogue and the storytelling
- The choices of composition and bubble
- The characterization
- The type of line art used
- The screentones and their usage
- The rythm
Etc.
The strenght of Oda is in the details.
For those unwilling to read a wall of text, Death Note just got used as an example of a battle shonen by @IlLogiko .
Death Note bros, I thought this was a mystery/thriller manga? You telling me dudes were pulling out supernatural Kung Fu moves to whack each other all this time? 
