Controversial General Political Discussion
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They define socialism as when the workers own the means of production, and the issue is not there being a period of transition, you could say that the time of prefiguration is that period, the issue they see is giving socialism the meaning of state capitalism, attributing that to Marx and Engels, and saying that you will reach communism through state capitalism
Does that make sense?
And we can talk about materialism if you would like to,
Does that make sense?
And we can talk about materialism if you would like to,
So. Let's clarify the definitions easily (because this is new for me and I think this is why this subject is fled by people, I had to make some research before completely understanding what you were saying.)
Capitalism > Private ownership of the MOP (means of production) + Class + Meritocracy
State Capitalism > The state plays a big role in society but does not own everything + Class + Some private ownership of the MOP.
Socialism > Common ownership of the MOP ? + One State + No Class = Period of transition
Communism > Stateless and Classless society
So if I understand, there is this here someone that think Marx and Engels described state capitalism as Socialism, but as I explained, it's not the same. Ok that I think I get.
Now, my first question is: how do we get from a state with no common ownership of the MOP to a state with common ownership of the MOP?
> Dictature of the Proleteria ? But what does that means practically ? Revolution ? Blood ? And then the use of force ?
The second question is: why can't state Capitalism be a form of effective transition between current capitalism and Socialism (that will later transition toward communism) ? Let's say, if we manage to end up in a society were meritocracy is hegemonicallly questionned ?
My third question is: How does Anarchy differs in term of transition period ?
About Materialism. Here is how I define things:
Materialism: The belief that human are influenced by material conditions.
Idealism: The belief that human are influenced by thoughts an intent.
Physicalism : Everything is a physical manifestation >"I have free Will."
Metaphysical idealism : Everything is mental
I think when you are talking about materialism, you are in reality talking about Physicalism, which can be, if not accepted, kinda dark and full of despair.
Materialism is different, it's the understanding of the way the world work as a structured society. There is no way to create a better society if we keep thinking in an idealistic sence, since it can only make us reproduce the same errors again and again : Meritocracy / Liberalism etc.
It's crazy how I get from a high end intellectual conversation about a potential fairer society, and you are here.. promoting the rethoric of people how will continue to oppress others... thus negating facts, activists, datas, studies and overall Sciences..
You really are 100 years behind mate..
Wait wuat ?
Capitalism > Private ownership of the MOP (means of production) + Class + Meritocracy
State Capitalism > The state plays a big role in society but does not own everything + Class + Some private ownership of the MOP.
Socialism > Common ownership of the MOP ? + One State + No Class = Period of transition
Communism > Stateless and Classless society
So if I understand, there is this here someone that think Marx and Engels described state capitalism as Socialism, but as I explained, it's not the same. Ok that I think I get.
Now, my first question is: how do we get from a state with no common ownership of the MOP to a state with common ownership of the MOP?
> Dictature of the Proleteria ? But what does that means practically ? Revolution ? Blood ? And then the use of force ?
The second question is: why can't state Capitalism be a form of effective transition between current capitalism and Socialism (that will later transition toward communism) ? Let's say, if we manage to end up in a society were meritocracy is hegemonicallly questionned ?
My third question is: How does Anarchy differs in term of transition period ?
About Materialism. Here is how I define things:
Materialism: The belief that human are influenced by material conditions.
Idealism: The belief that human are influenced by thoughts an intent.
Physicalism : Everything is a physical manifestation >"I have free Will."
Metaphysical idealism : Everything is mental
I think when you are talking about materialism, you are in reality talking about Physicalism, which can be, if not accepted, kinda dark and full of despair.
Materialism is different, it's the understanding of the way the world work as a structured society. There is no way to create a better society if we keep thinking in an idealistic sence, since it can only make us reproduce the same errors again and again : Meritocracy / Liberalism etc.
It's crazy how I get from a high end intellectual conversation about a potential fairer society, and you are here.. promoting the rethoric of people how will continue to oppress others... thus negating facts, activists, datas, studies and overall Sciences..
You really are 100 years behind mate..
Who is the crazy ass mod who modified my youtube link to Saddam Hussein purge with Logiko's signature ?? 
I suspect Goatac or UncleDefinitions
edit: wait wtf, never mind it came back to normal
I suspect Goatac or UncleDefinitions
edit: wait wtf, never mind it came back to normal
It's crazy how You a Frenchie are so hung up about some other countries Election. Stick to your own shit and filth mate. France needs alot of clean up from the filth it has.
Democrats have told the Lie about how they're for the people and working class citizens, but nothing ever gets done with them in control, Just more bullshit or actual racist disgusied as helping people. Black Lives Matters, It's very own leaders lied to the black community and spent it on their ownselfs buying houses and not the black community.
If there is oppression in America it is sustained by the very party that claims to fight against it. I don't expect you to understand a damn thing because you live in a small bubble of information and is ignorant and believe the lies. Sit down and never speak about American Politics again.
Democrats have told the Lie about how they're for the people and working class citizens, but nothing ever gets done with them in control, Just more bullshit or actual racist disgusied as helping people. Black Lives Matters, It's very own leaders lied to the black community and spent it on their ownselfs buying houses and not the black community.
If there is oppression in America it is sustained by the very party that claims to fight against it. I don't expect you to understand a damn thing because you live in a small bubble of information and is ignorant and believe the lies. Sit down and never speak about American Politics again.
It's crazy how you can't understand that the US is an imperialist state and by extention that it's political has a BIG influence on the entire world...
It show just how disconnected you are for reality.
And republicans are telling even more lies. That's what you can see.
It's sustain by the system. It's not one particular party, it's the institutions. Again as in "SYSTEMIC" RACISM.
It show just how disconnected you are for reality.
And republicans are telling even more lies. That's what you can see.
It's sustain by the system. It's not one particular party, it's the institutions. Again as in "SYSTEMIC" RACISM.
I understand, but the World is not our problem.
If anybodies disconnected from reality, it is you mate. Just because you spout out these words doesn't make them fact. Just spinning lies.
"And republicans are telling even more lies. that's what you can see." A statement that again is just vapid and empty nonsense. Sure Parties can lie, Individual people can lie. What lies? Just Lies? Lie lie lie lie. Maybe instead, You hear truths you don't like and in your head consider them as lies, Mate that's just running from the truth like a coward.
You say Systemic Racism yet never provide concrete evidence of it, Just wishful thinking that there's something there, I.E. Conspiracy bullshit.
American's have the opportunity to make something of themselves, Sure not everyone is on equal footing, That's an impossibility. Stop day dreaming about a fantasy that could never actually happen.
Also I find it funny, Some fucking white frenchie dude is basically saying what the black rapper is saying is wrong... GD bruh your optics are wrong.
If anybodies disconnected from reality, it is you mate. Just because you spout out these words doesn't make them fact. Just spinning lies.
"And republicans are telling even more lies. that's what you can see." A statement that again is just vapid and empty nonsense. Sure Parties can lie, Individual people can lie. What lies? Just Lies? Lie lie lie lie. Maybe instead, You hear truths you don't like and in your head consider them as lies, Mate that's just running from the truth like a coward.
You say Systemic Racism yet never provide concrete evidence of it, Just wishful thinking that there's something there, I.E. Conspiracy bullshit.
American's have the opportunity to make something of themselves, Sure not everyone is on equal footing, That's an impossibility. Stop day dreaming about a fantasy that could never actually happen.
Also I find it funny, Some fucking white frenchie dude is basically saying what the black rapper is saying is wrong... GD bruh your optics are wrong.
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I don't even have the will to be mean to you. It's just sad. I've been literally flooding this thread and section with various evidences and studies, very concrete, proper and viable data.. and yet you continue to think that I'm disconnected from reality when you have been ignoring everything from day one while only sharing some conservative point of view here and there.
Okay okay.. you have the truth, I have the lie. Show it then. Go on. Give me the studies, give me the datas, give me the researches.. prove me that your conservative ideology holds up in front of reality.
There is no truth toward conservatives, there is no reality either. There is just a missconception of what reality is. AND it's not much better on the side of democrats.
I did.. multiple times. it's all in the Leftist Library mate and I provided evidences after evidences here as well..
But somehow, once I provide undeniable data and rethoric.. SOMEHOW.. I get ignored and you or Nameless and your friends repeat the same lies over.. and over.. and over... and..
The constat on systemic racism is not a result of BS thinking or conspiracy theory, it's the result of a structural and materialistic way to see the world.
Something that you can't understand if you keep thinking that "we can stop being racist if we think about it very very hard"
As a people, yes. I agree.
How do you want to start changing things if you can't allow yourself to think about change ?
You know that it's not because he is black that he is right on everything, right ?
Okay okay.. you have the truth, I have the lie. Show it then. Go on. Give me the studies, give me the datas, give me the researches.. prove me that your conservative ideology holds up in front of reality.
There is no truth toward conservatives, there is no reality either. There is just a missconception of what reality is. AND it's not much better on the side of democrats.
I did.. multiple times. it's all in the Leftist Library mate and I provided evidences after evidences here as well..
But somehow, once I provide undeniable data and rethoric.. SOMEHOW.. I get ignored and you or Nameless and your friends repeat the same lies over.. and over.. and over... and..
The constat on systemic racism is not a result of BS thinking or conspiracy theory, it's the result of a structural and materialistic way to see the world.
Something that you can't understand if you keep thinking that "we can stop being racist if we think about it very very hard"
As a people, yes. I agree.
How do you want to start changing things if you can't allow yourself to think about change ?
You know that it's not because he is black that he is right on everything, right ?
I agree and I get that a materialist thinking is not an easy graps on first hand. It takes a little bit of effort and time to start understanding social structures as the results of material conditions and sociological conditions of our environement, especially when we come from conservative and fully idealists backgrounds.
Now... @Ravagerblade and others.. IF you are willing open your minds to that, I think I have a way for you to - at least - graps the concepts.
You might have seen me talk about :
Patriarchy > And the fact that we all have sexist biases, especially men
Systemic Racism > And the fact that we all have racist biases
Ableism > And the fact that we all have ableist biases
Heteronormativity > And the fact that we all have anti-LGBTQI+ biases..
Colonialism > And the fact that we westerner have colonialist biases
Capitalism > And the fact that we all have meritocratic biases.
Well, your reaction might be "no, I'm not racist/sexist/ableist etc." . After all, since you live in society and have no problems, it must be because you are exemplary on those questions.. you are therefore not all of those things. You learned not to be racist..... right ?
Well, that's the problem, in a material world where behavior are determined by sociological factors.. it's not that simple.
And to understand that, you might wanna see it that way, with that thought experiment:
Let's say that your are a kid on the new year of 2025. You meet an old woman that tells you that in 5 years, you will have a match of a very hardcore tactical and physical game you know NOTHING about. She tells you that you will lose if you make ONE mistake, but if you win, you will get to win 1 Billion $ !!
There is only ONE rule: You can only try to learn the game with the help of your kid friends that know NOTHING about the game at all. And you must NEVER seek any others ressources or anyone to help you out !
So.. logically, you will start to train on your own terms... with your kid friends.
> 2026 arrives, you start to find the point of the game,
> 2027, you improve a form of team play that you think is relevant.
> 2028, you start to improve some techniques.
> 2029, your self taught reflexes are starting to pop in, you found a good way to play with your friends and teamates.
> December 2029 arrives and you meet the old lady once again. She tells you that in order to prepare you for the match, she will give you the ENTIRE BIBLE of the rules of the game.
>> New year 2030 arrives and you have the match.
How much do you bet that you will lose because of a mistake due to the rules ?
--
You see, what you might experience on that match is simply the result of education and an education so deeply rooted that it is almost impossible to erease.
During this match, you will experience some tactical and physical biases due to a simple wrong education. After all, you didn't know the rule and the game was a tactical terror, so it's logical that you will make some mistake EVEN when you will know the rule perfectly.
In video Game you will often feel that residual education biases or "block" between supports and games, especially those like Rocket League who needs a lot of muscle memory.
Well, it's a bit similar when we talk about social educations and systemic issues. Don't get me wrong, it's highly different, but this residual educational biase is helpfull to understand why, even when we know that we are not sexist for example.. well, it's not that simple.
In society, we are not left alone to educate ourself. It's the entire society that will shape us. It's the structure that will give us a "bad education" on ALL those subjects through a lot of things like the institutions or the parental education or the Media.
When we are talking about "systemic" problems, we are refering to problem that are bigger that simple individual behaviors. We are refering to the structures that will shape those behaviors.
The police will enforce a type of normativity
The media will show a type of normativity
The parental education will show a type of normativity
The law will allow a type of normativity
Etc.
With systemic problems, pretty much ALL the structures of society are "parasitized" by the oppression (racism/sexism/ableism etc.)
So..
When you are born in that type of society and live inside of it, you are DOOMED to reproduced the mistakes that are in the core of its normativity, EVEN if you learn to stop those behaviors. This is due to residual education and reproduction of behavior:
- Under systemic racism, you will have racist biases
- Under patriarchy, you will have sexist biases
Etc.
For example, as a white and catholic person in France under systemic islamophobia, you will not be racist or islamophobe BUT you might instantly think about terrorist attacks or insecurity when you met a muslim woman with a veil in the streets. You will refrain that feelin, you might even feel guilty about it, but it will happen at some point with any kind of situation.
Those biases are what we talk about when we say that "all men are sexist" or "all white are racists". Those biases are the results of our education. An education that we CAN'T escape.. because here is the sad truth:
Capitalism, systemic racism, ableism, heteronormativity, Patriarchy... those systemic problems are EVERYWHERE and usually all in favor of Cis White Men.
---
You see... Oda talks very well about those biases in One Piece although, to make it more relatable for white people, he talks about it in reverse :
Instead of talking about the biases due to racism. He will talk about the biases due to the hate that the anger against racism will create:
Do you remember this line from Fisher Tiger ?
Well here... you have the CLEAREST example of prejudice and hatefull biases against someone... in a POSITIVE AND PROGRESSIVE person.
To be frank, Oda pushed it to the limit here, but you get the idea. Tiger was pushed by his past and his education to hate humans who made him suffer.
While is anger is legitimate, he recognizes himself that his own hatred is not.
In other words, Fisher Tiger understands that while being against racism, he can't help but be racist too because of his experience.
That's what biases are !
For ex, in real life in the western world:
> A passive racist bias, might be to think that a person is japanese or chinese and can't speak english because they have slanted eyes.
> An active racist bias, might for example be to touch the hairs of a black person because they are all freezy
> A passive sexist bias, might be to feel a small frustration when you compare your salary with a woman with better wages.
> An active sexist bias, might be to never listen to what women say in a group of friend or to take more into consideration what men say.
> A passive ableist bias, might be to be afraid of a person that talk to themself in the bus
> An active ableist bias, might be to ask a mentally ill person to take their medecine when they express anger and frustration
Etc.
We are all the sum of our educations. It's important to understand that in under a systemic oppression. ALL people - and especially those who benefit from said oppression - will have biases correlated to this oppression...
EVEN.. when they try to make some effort to change.
Even I can't escape those biases and i'm fighting everyday to reduce them to the minimum.
This is why to end systemic racism, we need, like fishmen, to create a world where racism can't spread anymore. It means changing the system and allowing the new generation to live in a system without racist bias. Only there we will get rid of racism.. or sexism ... or ableism...
Now... @Ravagerblade and others.. IF you are willing open your minds to that, I think I have a way for you to - at least - graps the concepts.
You might have seen me talk about :
Patriarchy > And the fact that we all have sexist biases, especially men
Systemic Racism > And the fact that we all have racist biases
Ableism > And the fact that we all have ableist biases
Heteronormativity > And the fact that we all have anti-LGBTQI+ biases..
Colonialism > And the fact that we westerner have colonialist biases
Capitalism > And the fact that we all have meritocratic biases.
Well, your reaction might be "no, I'm not racist/sexist/ableist etc." . After all, since you live in society and have no problems, it must be because you are exemplary on those questions.. you are therefore not all of those things. You learned not to be racist..... right ?
Well, that's the problem, in a material world where behavior are determined by sociological factors.. it's not that simple.
And to understand that, you might wanna see it that way, with that thought experiment:
Let's say that your are a kid on the new year of 2025. You meet an old woman that tells you that in 5 years, you will have a match of a very hardcore tactical and physical game you know NOTHING about. She tells you that you will lose if you make ONE mistake, but if you win, you will get to win 1 Billion $ !!
There is only ONE rule: You can only try to learn the game with the help of your kid friends that know NOTHING about the game at all. And you must NEVER seek any others ressources or anyone to help you out !
So.. logically, you will start to train on your own terms... with your kid friends.
> 2026 arrives, you start to find the point of the game,
> 2027, you improve a form of team play that you think is relevant.
> 2028, you start to improve some techniques.
> 2029, your self taught reflexes are starting to pop in, you found a good way to play with your friends and teamates.
> December 2029 arrives and you meet the old lady once again. She tells you that in order to prepare you for the match, she will give you the ENTIRE BIBLE of the rules of the game.
>> New year 2030 arrives and you have the match.
How much do you bet that you will lose because of a mistake due to the rules ?
--
You see, what you might experience on that match is simply the result of education and an education so deeply rooted that it is almost impossible to erease.
During this match, you will experience some tactical and physical biases due to a simple wrong education. After all, you didn't know the rule and the game was a tactical terror, so it's logical that you will make some mistake EVEN when you will know the rule perfectly.
In video Game you will often feel that residual education biases or "block" between supports and games, especially those like Rocket League who needs a lot of muscle memory.
Well, it's a bit similar when we talk about social educations and systemic issues. Don't get me wrong, it's highly different, but this residual educational biase is helpfull to understand why, even when we know that we are not sexist for example.. well, it's not that simple.
In society, we are not left alone to educate ourself. It's the entire society that will shape us. It's the structure that will give us a "bad education" on ALL those subjects through a lot of things like the institutions or the parental education or the Media.
When we are talking about "systemic" problems, we are refering to problem that are bigger that simple individual behaviors. We are refering to the structures that will shape those behaviors.
The police will enforce a type of normativity
The media will show a type of normativity
The parental education will show a type of normativity
The law will allow a type of normativity
Etc.
With systemic problems, pretty much ALL the structures of society are "parasitized" by the oppression (racism/sexism/ableism etc.)
So..
When you are born in that type of society and live inside of it, you are DOOMED to reproduced the mistakes that are in the core of its normativity, EVEN if you learn to stop those behaviors. This is due to residual education and reproduction of behavior:
- Under systemic racism, you will have racist biases
- Under patriarchy, you will have sexist biases
Etc.
For example, as a white and catholic person in France under systemic islamophobia, you will not be racist or islamophobe BUT you might instantly think about terrorist attacks or insecurity when you met a muslim woman with a veil in the streets. You will refrain that feelin, you might even feel guilty about it, but it will happen at some point with any kind of situation.
Those biases are what we talk about when we say that "all men are sexist" or "all white are racists". Those biases are the results of our education. An education that we CAN'T escape.. because here is the sad truth:
Capitalism, systemic racism, ableism, heteronormativity, Patriarchy... those systemic problems are EVERYWHERE and usually all in favor of Cis White Men.
---
You see... Oda talks very well about those biases in One Piece although, to make it more relatable for white people, he talks about it in reverse :
Instead of talking about the biases due to racism. He will talk about the biases due to the hate that the anger against racism will create:
Do you remember this line from Fisher Tiger ?
Well here... you have the CLEAREST example of prejudice and hatefull biases against someone... in a POSITIVE AND PROGRESSIVE person.
To be frank, Oda pushed it to the limit here, but you get the idea. Tiger was pushed by his past and his education to hate humans who made him suffer.
While is anger is legitimate, he recognizes himself that his own hatred is not.
In other words, Fisher Tiger understands that while being against racism, he can't help but be racist too because of his experience.
That's what biases are !
For ex, in real life in the western world:
> A passive racist bias, might be to think that a person is japanese or chinese and can't speak english because they have slanted eyes.
> An active racist bias, might for example be to touch the hairs of a black person because they are all freezy
> A passive sexist bias, might be to feel a small frustration when you compare your salary with a woman with better wages.
> An active sexist bias, might be to never listen to what women say in a group of friend or to take more into consideration what men say.
> A passive ableist bias, might be to be afraid of a person that talk to themself in the bus
> An active ableist bias, might be to ask a mentally ill person to take their medecine when they express anger and frustration
Etc.
We are all the sum of our educations. It's important to understand that in under a systemic oppression. ALL people - and especially those who benefit from said oppression - will have biases correlated to this oppression...
EVEN.. when they try to make some effort to change.
Even I can't escape those biases and i'm fighting everyday to reduce them to the minimum.
This is why to end systemic racism, we need, like fishmen, to create a world where racism can't spread anymore. It means changing the system and allowing the new generation to live in a system without racist bias. Only there we will get rid of racism.. or sexism ... or ableism...
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I agree and I get that a materialist thinking is not an easy graps on first hand. It takes a little bit of effort and time to start understanding social structures as the results of material conditions and sociological conditions of our environement, especially when we come from conservative and fully idealists backgrounds.
Now... @Ravagerblade and others.. IF you are willing open your minds to that, I think I have a way for you to - at least - graps the concepts.
You might have seen me talk about :
Patriarchy > And the fact that we all have sexist biases, especially men
Systemic Racism > And the fact that we all have racist biases
Ableism > And the fact that we all have ableist biases
Heteronormativity > And the fact that we all have anti-LGBTQI+ biases..
Colonialism > And the fact that we westerner have colonialist biases
Capitalism > And the fact that we all have meritocratic biases.
Well, your reaction might be "no, I'm not racist/sexist/ableist etc." . After all, since you live in society and have no problems, it must be because you are exemplary on those questions.. you are therefore not all of those things. You learned not to be racist..... right ?
Well, that's the problem, in a material world where behavior are determined by sociological factors.. it's not that simple.
And to understand that, you might wanna see it that way, with that thought experiment:
Let's say that your are a kid on the new year of 2025. You meet an old woman that tells you that in 5 years, you will have a match of a very hardcore tactical and physical game you know NOTHING about. She tells you that you will lose if you make ONE mistake, but if you win, you will get to win 1 Billion $ !!
There is only ONE rule: You can only try to learn the game with the help of your kid friends that know NOTHING about the game at all. And you must NEVER seek any others ressources or anyone to help you out !
So.. logically, you will start to train on your own terms... with your kid friends.
> 2026 arrives, you start to find the point of the game,
> 2027, you improve a form of team play that you think is relevant.
> 2028, you start to improve some techniques.
> 2029, your self taught reflexes are starting to pop in, you found a good way to play with your friends and teamates.
> December 2029 arrives and you meet the old lady once again. She tells you that in order to prepare you for the match, she will give you the ENTIRE BIBLE of the rules of the game.
>> New year 2030 arrives and you have the match.
How much do you bet that you will lose because of a mistake due to the rules ?
--
You see, what you might experience on that match is simply the result of education and an education so deeply rooted that it is almost impossible to erease.
During this match, you will experience some tactical and physical biases due to a simple wrong education. After all, you didn't know the rule and the game was a tactical terror, so it's logical that you will make some mistake EVEN when you will know the rule perfectly.
In video Game you will often feel that residual education biases or "block" between supports and games, especially those like Rocket League who needs a lot of muscle memory.
Well, it's a bit similar when we talk about social educations and systemic issues. Don't get me wrong, it's highly different, but this residual educational biase is helpfull to understand why, even when we know that we are not sexist for example.. well, it's not that simple.
In society, we are not left alone to educate ourself. It's the entire society that will shape us. It's the structure that will give us a "bad education" on ALL those subjects through a lot of things like the institutions or the parental education or the Media.
When we are talking about "systemic" problems, we are refering to problem that are bigger that simple individual behaviors. We are refering to the structures that will shape those behaviors.
The police will enforce a type of normativity
The media will show a type of normativity
The parental education will show a type of normativity
The law will allow a type of normativity
Etc.
With systemic problems, pretty much ALL the structures of society are "parasitized" by the oppression (racism/sexism/ableism etc.)
So..
When you are born in that type of society and live inside of it, you are DOOMED to reproduced the mistakes that are in the core of its normativity, EVEN if you learn to stop those behaviors. This is due to residual education and reproduction of behavior:
- Under systemic racism, you will have racist biases
- Under patriarchy, you will have sexist biases
Etc.
For example, as a white and catholic person in France under systemic islamophobia, you will not be racist or islamophobe BUT you might instantly think about terrorist attacks or insecurity when you met a muslim woman with a veil in the streets. You will refrain that feelin, you might even feel guilty about it, but it will happen at some point with any kind of situation.
Those biases are what we talk about when we say that "all men are sexist" or "all white are racists". Those biases are the results of our education. An education that we CAN'T escape.. because here is the sad truth:
Capitalism, systemic racism, ableism, heteronormativity, Patriarchy... those systemic problems are EVERYWHERE and usually all in favor of Cis White Men.
---
You see... Oda talks very well about those biases in One Piece although, to make it more relatable for white people, he talks about it in reverse :
Instead of talking about the biases due to racism. He will talk about the biases due to the hate that the anger against racism will create:
Do you remember this line from Fisher Tiger ?
Well here... you have the CLEAREST example of prejudice and hatefull biases against someone... in a POSITIVE AND PROGRESSIVE person.
To be frank, Oda pushed it to the limit here, but you get the idea. Tiger was pushed by his past and his education to hate humans who made him suffer.
While is anger is legitimate, he recognizes himself that his own hatred is not.
In other words, Fisher Tiger understands that while being against racism, he can't help but be racist too because of his experience.
That's what biases are !
For ex, in real life in the western world:
> A passive racist bias, might be to think that a person is japanese or chinese and can't speak english because they have slanted eyes.
> An active racist bias, might for example be to touch the hairs of a black person because they are all freezy
> A passive sexist bias, might be to feel a small frustration when you compare your salary with a woman with better wages.
> An active sexist bias, might be to never listen to what women say in a group of friend or to take more into consideration what men say.
> A passive ableist bias, might be to be afraid of a person that talk to themself in the bus
> An active ableist bias, might be to ask a mentally ill person to take their medecine when they express anger and frustration
Etc.
We are all the sum of our educations. It's important to understand that in under a systemic oppression. ALL people - and especially those who benefit from said oppression - will have biases correlated to this oppression...
EVEN.. when they try to make some effort to change.
Even I can't escape those biases and i'm fighting everyday to reduce them to the minimum.
This is why to end systemic racism, we need, like fishmen, to create a world where racism can't spread anymore. It means changing the system and allowing the new generation to live in a system without racist bias. Only there we will get rid of racism.. or sexism ... or ableism...
Now... @Ravagerblade and others.. IF you are willing open your minds to that, I think I have a way for you to - at least - graps the concepts.
You might have seen me talk about :
Patriarchy > And the fact that we all have sexist biases, especially men
Systemic Racism > And the fact that we all have racist biases
Ableism > And the fact that we all have ableist biases
Heteronormativity > And the fact that we all have anti-LGBTQI+ biases..
Colonialism > And the fact that we westerner have colonialist biases
Capitalism > And the fact that we all have meritocratic biases.
Well, your reaction might be "no, I'm not racist/sexist/ableist etc." . After all, since you live in society and have no problems, it must be because you are exemplary on those questions.. you are therefore not all of those things. You learned not to be racist..... right ?
Well, that's the problem, in a material world where behavior are determined by sociological factors.. it's not that simple.
And to understand that, you might wanna see it that way, with that thought experiment:
Let's say that your are a kid on the new year of 2025. You meet an old woman that tells you that in 5 years, you will have a match of a very hardcore tactical and physical game you know NOTHING about. She tells you that you will lose if you make ONE mistake, but if you win, you will get to win 1 Billion $ !!
There is only ONE rule: You can only try to learn the game with the help of your kid friends that know NOTHING about the game at all. And you must NEVER seek any others ressources or anyone to help you out !
So.. logically, you will start to train on your own terms... with your kid friends.
> 2026 arrives, you start to find the point of the game,
> 2027, you improve a form of team play that you think is relevant.
> 2028, you start to improve some techniques.
> 2029, your self taught reflexes are starting to pop in, you found a good way to play with your friends and teamates.
> December 2029 arrives and you meet the old lady once again. She tells you that in order to prepare you for the match, she will give you the ENTIRE BIBLE of the rules of the game.
>> New year 2030 arrives and you have the match.
How much do you bet that you will lose because of a mistake due to the rules ?
--
You see, what you might experience on that match is simply the result of education and an education so deeply rooted that it is almost impossible to erease.
During this match, you will experience some tactical and physical biases due to a simple wrong education. After all, you didn't know the rule and the game was a tactical terror, so it's logical that you will make some mistake EVEN when you will know the rule perfectly.
In video Game you will often feel that residual education biases or "block" between supports and games, especially those like Rocket League who needs a lot of muscle memory.
Well, it's a bit similar when we talk about social educations and systemic issues. Don't get me wrong, it's highly different, but this residual educational biase is helpfull to understand why, even when we know that we are not sexist for example.. well, it's not that simple.
In society, we are not left alone to educate ourself. It's the entire society that will shape us. It's the structure that will give us a "bad education" on ALL those subjects through a lot of things like the institutions or the parental education or the Media.
When we are talking about "systemic" problems, we are refering to problem that are bigger that simple individual behaviors. We are refering to the structures that will shape those behaviors.
The police will enforce a type of normativity
The media will show a type of normativity
The parental education will show a type of normativity
The law will allow a type of normativity
Etc.
With systemic problems, pretty much ALL the structures of society are "parasitized" by the oppression (racism/sexism/ableism etc.)
So..
When you are born in that type of society and live inside of it, you are DOOMED to reproduced the mistakes that are in the core of its normativity, EVEN if you learn to stop those behaviors. This is due to residual education and reproduction of behavior:
- Under systemic racism, you will have racist biases
- Under patriarchy, you will have sexist biases
Etc.
For example, as a white and catholic person in France under systemic islamophobia, you will not be racist or islamophobe BUT you might instantly think about terrorist attacks or insecurity when you met a muslim woman with a veil in the streets. You will refrain that feelin, you might even feel guilty about it, but it will happen at some point with any kind of situation.
Those biases are what we talk about when we say that "all men are sexist" or "all white are racists". Those biases are the results of our education. An education that we CAN'T escape.. because here is the sad truth:
Capitalism, systemic racism, ableism, heteronormativity, Patriarchy... those systemic problems are EVERYWHERE and usually all in favor of Cis White Men.
---
You see... Oda talks very well about those biases in One Piece although, to make it more relatable for white people, he talks about it in reverse :
Instead of talking about the biases due to racism. He will talk about the biases due to the hate that the anger against racism will create:
Do you remember this line from Fisher Tiger ?
Well here... you have the CLEAREST example of prejudice and hatefull biases against someone... in a POSITIVE AND PROGRESSIVE person.
To be frank, Oda pushed it to the limit here, but you get the idea. Tiger was pushed by his past and his education to hate humans who made him suffer.
While is anger is legitimate, he recognizes himself that his own hatred is not.
In other words, Fisher Tiger understands that while being against racism, he can't help but be racist too because of his experience.
That's what biases are !
For ex, in real life in the western world:
> A passive racist bias, might be to think that a person is japanese or chinese and can't speak english because they have slanted eyes.
> An active racist bias, might for example be to touch the hairs of a black person because they are all freezy
> A passive sexist bias, might be to feel a small frustration when you compare your salary with a woman with better wages.
> An active sexist bias, might be to never listen to what women say in a group of friend or to take more into consideration what men say.
> A passive ableist bias, might be to be afraid of a person that talk to themself in the bus
> An active ableist bias, might be to ask a mentally ill person to take their medecine when they express anger and frustration
Etc.
We are all the sum of our educations. It's important to understand that in under a systemic oppression. ALL people - and especially those who benefit from said oppression - will have biases correlated to this oppression...
EVEN.. when they try to make some effort to change.
Even I can't escape those biases and i'm fighting everyday to reduce them to the minimum.
This is why to end systemic racism, we need, like fishmen, to create a world where racism can't spread anymore. It means changing the system and allowing the new generation to live in a system without racist bias. Only there we will get rid of racism.. or sexism ... or ableism...
I don't know.. I tried literally everything on this thread, from disrespect to empathy and study flooding... I tried EVERY techniques I know. It seems like no matter what I do, it's just impossible for them to listen to me. It's like there is a invisible wall that can't be crossed.
And YET.. I've crossed that wall many times. I deradicalized from SO MANY conservatives and hurtfull ideologies.. so I'm SURE there is a way to get people like Ravager or Nameless to listen.. I just don't know what it is.
In those past two comments. I'm really genuine, there is absolutely zero attempt to disrespect. I'm simply trying to convince them. I'm trying the common denominator to start from that. There is 9 out 10 chances that he will laugh at my post. So I need to speak to the 1/10. But that.. I don't know how to do.
Now.. If someone knew that, this would create peace on earth... so I get that it is not an easy task.
But I can't really give up the challenge.
And YET.. I've crossed that wall many times. I deradicalized from SO MANY conservatives and hurtfull ideologies.. so I'm SURE there is a way to get people like Ravager or Nameless to listen.. I just don't know what it is.
In those past two comments. I'm really genuine, there is absolutely zero attempt to disrespect. I'm simply trying to convince them. I'm trying the common denominator to start from that. There is 9 out 10 chances that he will laugh at my post. So I need to speak to the 1/10. But that.. I don't know how to do.
Now.. If someone knew that, this would create peace on earth... so I get that it is not an easy task.
But I can't really give up the challenge.
People generally don't like to be told that they have constant problems over and over.
They don't prefer to be constantly bombarded with negative connotations for their posts here in this thread either.
Some people also live in countries where life is not as idealistic as you might think it is. Adaptability and hard work keeps them afloat in a society where help from others around are not guaranteed, if they don't straight up ignore his/her presence as soon as he/she is in hard times, that is.
I'd rather motivate and preach rather than criticize and put people down, honestly.
They don't prefer to be constantly bombarded with negative connotations for their posts here in this thread either.
Some people also live in countries where life is not as idealistic as you might think it is. Adaptability and hard work keeps them afloat in a society where help from others around are not guaranteed, if they don't straight up ignore his/her presence as soon as he/she is in hard times, that is.
I'd rather motivate and preach rather than criticize and put people down, honestly.
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I swear I see so many restrictions and draconian enforcement of rules in forums that are left leaning when it should be the exact opposite if the "workers" (the members in the forum) in question actually owned the production.
You'd think the rules and implementation of those rules would be more lenient in a left-leaning place but no, they're even stricter, somehow. Just because the members in there are complacent about it =/= they have guaranteed rights on what they could do without risk of constant intervention.
Now back to real life: if the workers really had the right to own the production, existence of small businesses and companies that hired people for certain tasks would be encouraged since the majority of those businesses are there to provide some kind of service, whether it'd be providing basic necessities at a cost (food, clothing, construction/housing, electronics), or services that someone may not always need in their day to day life, but may come in handy in certain situations (maintenance and repairs to vehicles, electronics, but also health care).
Kind of like how the western world is now, but without the heavy inflation and more affordability.
You'd think the rules and implementation of those rules would be more lenient in a left-leaning place but no, they're even stricter, somehow. Just because the members in there are complacent about it =/= they have guaranteed rights on what they could do without risk of constant intervention.
Now back to real life: if the workers really had the right to own the production, existence of small businesses and companies that hired people for certain tasks would be encouraged since the majority of those businesses are there to provide some kind of service, whether it'd be providing basic necessities at a cost (food, clothing, construction/housing, electronics), or services that someone may not always need in their day to day life, but may come in handy in certain situations (maintenance and repairs to vehicles, electronics, but also health care).
Kind of like how the western world is now, but without the heavy inflation and more affordability.
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I don't know.. I tried literally everything on this thread, from disrespect to empathy and study flooding... I tried EVERY techniques I know. It seems like no matter what I do, it's just impossible for them to listen to me. It's like there is a invisible wall that can't be crossed.
And YET.. I've crossed that wall many times. I deradicalized from SO MANY conservatives and hurtfull ideologies.. so I'm SURE there is a way to get people like Ravager or Nameless to listen.. I just don't know what it is.
In those past two comments. I'm really genuine, there is absolutely zero attempt to disrespect. I'm simply trying to convince them. I'm trying the common denominator to start from that. There is 9 out 10 chances that he will laugh at my post. So I need to speak to the 1/10. But that.. I don't know how to do.
Now.. If someone knew that, this would create peace on earth... so I get that it is not an easy task.
But I can't really give up the challenge.
And YET.. I've crossed that wall many times. I deradicalized from SO MANY conservatives and hurtfull ideologies.. so I'm SURE there is a way to get people like Ravager or Nameless to listen.. I just don't know what it is.
In those past two comments. I'm really genuine, there is absolutely zero attempt to disrespect. I'm simply trying to convince them. I'm trying the common denominator to start from that. There is 9 out 10 chances that he will laugh at my post. So I need to speak to the 1/10. But that.. I don't know how to do.
Now.. If someone knew that, this would create peace on earth... so I get that it is not an easy task.
But I can't really give up the challenge.