Character Discussion SMOKER | Making of the Strongest Marine
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We just dont think hes at the level yall folks think hes at. And dont believe Oda is giving him some special treatment over WorstGen members or even over Sanji and Roronoa.
Now personally, I think his character design is mid af, even from all the SWORD members he probably has the worst character design. There are literally random ass Marines Oda draws with character designs that are better.
Now personally, I think his character design is mid af, even from all the SWORD members he probably has the worst character design. There are literally random ass Marines Oda draws with character designs that are better.
Yea, i'm just saying most marine fans disagree with that. Which y'all take as hate. Yea I don't give about a single shit about that page, just like i never gave a fuck about the "throne speech" page... they're hype pages, that's it. Koby fans aren't the only ones to use it Buggy fans/Kuzan fans/ Garling fans/etc all use it, and my reply is the same to all them (in case you thought it was just for Koby).
It's not about hate, I've said this many times but I just go off of what the author is telling us. If Oda makes a page where a character says "It all depends on who finds the One Piece" and then seems to meticulously pick out characters to put on that page to seemingly entail that they're all going to be important in the race to the OP, then chances are he's implying that they're all going to be very important characters.
Occam's razor type of thing. It's easier to just assume he's trying to portray people like Koby as big characters than to make a million excuses as to why Koby actually ISN'T one.
SWORD in general is the future of the Marines, but Koby is the one that's always highlighted out of all the SWORD members. There's a reason for that.
You can absolutely despise Koby and wish he never existed, that's fine, but my problem is when people are just blatantly ignoring what the author tells us for no good reason.
Occam's razor type of thing. It's easier to just assume he's trying to portray people like Koby as big characters than to make a million excuses as to why Koby actually ISN'T one.
SWORD in general is the future of the Marines, but Koby is the one that's always highlighted out of all the SWORD members. There's a reason for that.
You can absolutely despise Koby and wish he never existed, that's fine, but my problem is when people are just blatantly ignoring what the author tells us for no good reason.
You see how you always go with "Oda is telling us this about Koby!!!" "Oda is saying this about Koby!!!".
While I've never stated that in any argument for Smoker being the Next Garp?? Because that's just your opinion, your understanding and conclusion of what's in the manga. For example, you give more value to Koby being a member of the SWORD, than Drake being a WorstGen + Supernova + Leader of the SWORD.
And if we're so stubborn on making that 1 page mean shit in actual talks of story, then why not also break down the page even more and use the sizes of the panels to determine the importance of the characters? Why simply stop at a shallow point of simply "characters on a hype page that Oda uses from the recent events + a mystery character who appears next arc, all more important than characters who aren't on it!!" Let's go in depth, let's look at who Oda highlights in those pages with bigger key panels. Like bruh, people did this same goofy shit with the "Throne Wars Speech" page. lol.
While I've never stated that in any argument for Smoker being the Next Garp?? Because that's just your opinion, your understanding and conclusion of what's in the manga. For example, you give more value to Koby being a member of the SWORD, than Drake being a WorstGen + Supernova + Leader of the SWORD.
And if we're so stubborn on making that 1 page mean shit in actual talks of story, then why not also break down the page even more and use the sizes of the panels to determine the importance of the characters? Why simply stop at a shallow point of simply "characters on a hype page that Oda uses from the recent events + a mystery character who appears next arc, all more important than characters who aren't on it!!" Let's go in depth, let's look at who Oda highlights in those pages with bigger key panels. Like bruh, people did this same goofy shit with the "Throne Wars Speech" page. lol.
I like how you think I don't also believe Smoker and Drake won't be very important somehow.
Obviously they will, hell Smoker might be the one to defeat Kuzan, I just don't believe he's supposed to be a Garp parallel. At most he is one, but so is Koby.
And Drake will be an Admiral eventually.
Anyway, the Throne Wars Speech is different from Vegapunk's speech. There, it wasn't just about the front runners of a faction or the most prominent pirates/marines/etc. It was about every important character we know of.
This is different as it's a select amount of characters who all have obvious narrative importance, more so than basically anyone else alive. There's no reason to break that tradition just to include Koby in there.
If Koby were such an useless fodder he would never be there, but instead he was specifically chosen despite not even being the leader of SWORD (that's X Drake) and not being the FA like Sakazuki.
Him, Kuzan, Sabo and Shamrock all share the trait of being a mere underling and still being on the spread. Do you think Kuzan, Sabo and Shamrock also won't be important?
Obviously they will, hell Smoker might be the one to defeat Kuzan, I just don't believe he's supposed to be a Garp parallel. At most he is one, but so is Koby.
And Drake will be an Admiral eventually.
Anyway, the Throne Wars Speech is different from Vegapunk's speech. There, it wasn't just about the front runners of a faction or the most prominent pirates/marines/etc. It was about every important character we know of.
This is different as it's a select amount of characters who all have obvious narrative importance, more so than basically anyone else alive. There's no reason to break that tradition just to include Koby in there.
If Koby were such an useless fodder he would never be there, but instead he was specifically chosen despite not even being the leader of SWORD (that's X Drake) and not being the FA like Sakazuki.
Him, Kuzan, Sabo and Shamrock all share the trait of being a mere underling and still being on the spread. Do you think Kuzan, Sabo and Shamrock also won't be important?
I never claimed or stated you believe Smoker and Drake won't be important, reread.
I stated, you give more relevance to Koby being a member of the SWORD in comparison to Drake being part of the Worst Generation + A Supernova + The Leader of the SWORD. That's not Oda giving it more relevance, that YOU giving it relevance. It was an example of how it's not Oda saying or stating anything, simply your opinion on your understanding of the series.
If you want to think it's different from the throne wars page, to push your agenda for w.e character, go right ahead. I'm simply letting you know FOR ME, it means jackshit, just like the Throne Wars page. It's got 0 relevance to actual narrative and story writing. Thus, it's pointless to bring up with me in a discussion, since I don't care for hype pages.
Why didn't you include Garling and Akainu both of whom are also direct underlings to Imu? And when did I say Koby isn't important to the narrative? Our discussions are about powerlevel and where he stands based on what he's shown. Fucking Kinemon was important to the narrative of the story. Tama was important to the narrative of the story. Narrative importance and powerlevels are completely different things.
I don't base powerlevels off of hype pages, I base them on character statements, feats, and portrayals of direct comparisons to other characters pertaining to power. And Koby has none of them going for him even over somebody like Tashigi.
I stated, you give more relevance to Koby being a member of the SWORD in comparison to Drake being part of the Worst Generation + A Supernova + The Leader of the SWORD. That's not Oda giving it more relevance, that YOU giving it relevance. It was an example of how it's not Oda saying or stating anything, simply your opinion on your understanding of the series.
If you want to think it's different from the throne wars page, to push your agenda for w.e character, go right ahead. I'm simply letting you know FOR ME, it means jackshit, just like the Throne Wars page. It's got 0 relevance to actual narrative and story writing. Thus, it's pointless to bring up with me in a discussion, since I don't care for hype pages.
Why didn't you include Garling and Akainu both of whom are also direct underlings to Imu? And when did I say Koby isn't important to the narrative? Our discussions are about powerlevel and where he stands based on what he's shown. Fucking Kinemon was important to the narrative of the story. Tama was important to the narrative of the story. Narrative importance and powerlevels are completely different things.
I don't base powerlevels off of hype pages, I base them on character statements, feats, and portrayals of direct comparisons to other characters pertaining to power. And Koby has none of them going for him even over somebody like Tashigi.
Garp was a Vice Admiral and Sengoku the Fleet Admiral. Was Sengoku more important than Garp?
I don't give a single fuck about agenda. It's not about agenda. I keep telling you, I'm going off Koby's portrayal.
Comparing him to Kinemon and Tama is disingenuous - Kinemon and Tama were never considered the future of a faction full of immensely strong and capable people, they were never seen as the beloved protege of one of the most popular and impactful Marines, they weren't in the second chapter of the series with them becoming a Marine at the same time the MC sets off to become a "professional" Pirate, and they weren't shown to announce their dream in the same panel as Luffy proclaiming he'll be the Pirate King.
Oda has given Koby build up. Should he have given him more screentime, feats, and portrayal? Yes. Does that mean he doesn't still intend for him to be very important? No.
There's no reason to assume that Oda will have Koby constantly say he wants to be an Admiral and fight against Luffy, just for him to actually not do that at all. This isn't like the Scabbards saying they'll kill Kaido to avenge Oden, Koby's dream was literally done parallel to Luffy saying he will be the PK.
I don't give a single fuck about agenda. It's not about agenda. I keep telling you, I'm going off Koby's portrayal.
Comparing him to Kinemon and Tama is disingenuous - Kinemon and Tama were never considered the future of a faction full of immensely strong and capable people, they were never seen as the beloved protege of one of the most popular and impactful Marines, they weren't in the second chapter of the series with them becoming a Marine at the same time the MC sets off to become a "professional" Pirate, and they weren't shown to announce their dream in the same panel as Luffy proclaiming he'll be the Pirate King.
Oda has given Koby build up. Should he have given him more screentime, feats, and portrayal? Yes. Does that mean he doesn't still intend for him to be very important? No.
There's no reason to assume that Oda will have Koby constantly say he wants to be an Admiral and fight against Luffy, just for him to actually not do that at all. This isn't like the Scabbards saying they'll kill Kaido to avenge Oden, Koby's dream was literally done parallel to Luffy saying he will be the PK.
-> Garp was introduced as from the get go as "the man who cornered the Pirate King multiple times", aka "character statements" that put him at that level. Before water 7 people had no reason to believe a random dude on cover story was as powerful as Fleet Admiral Sengoku or the Admirals, and nobody did. lol.
-> That's an example of character who played huge roles in an arc's narrative despite being nowhere near the strongest of characters. That's not me making a comparison between the characters, just that Oda doesn't care for powerlevels vs narrative importance. Vergo is a fodder bum compared to Tensei/Chaton/Gion, he has more narrative importance in the series.
-> So you tell me it's disingenuous to compare him to characters who weren't powerful but had huge narrative importance... While then comparing Koby to Luffy... what?
Luffy has constantly lost and fought over and over and over and over and over against strong individuals in the series.
Koby has fought fodders, even after 2 years of training, he has only fought fodders. He was 1 relevant feat on panel, against essentially the ground in a non-1on1 combative situation. Just so we understand out of 1050+ chapters, Koby has 1 relevant feat of combat and it doesn't tell us anything about how strong he is in CQC. You're claiming Koby becoming an admiral is running in parallel to Luffy becoming PK right... ok, no problem, let's take a look at what Oda's done so far to build up that dream of Koby's so he'll be an admiral in parallel to Luffy becoming the PK... and we'll just go with other Marines who're coming up:
Drake X in Sabody pre-TS: Blocked Killer and Urouge's attacks together without his body shaking or anything of that sort.
Drake X in Wano: Went against Tobiroppo , Worstgen member, YC, Strongest CP0 , Numbers
Smoker at PH: fights Law, fights Luffy (while in Tashigi's body), fights Vergo, then fights Doffy.
Smokerr at MF: Went against Luffy, went against Boa
Smoker at Alabasta: Went against Ace
Sentomaru at Sabody pre-TS: Fights the SHPs and owns Luffy easily.
Sentomaru at Egghead: Fights Kizaru, fights Lucci
Tashigi at PH: Fights against Law, Fights against Monet.
Koby at reverie: Takes care of fodder pirates
Koby at Amazon Lilly: Is bruised up from fighting the normal Kuja, with the Kuja pirates all being fine.
Koby at Hachinuso: Is fighting fodder pirates, until at the very end he does a singular attack against a slow giant hand while Helmeppo and Grus allowed him to charge up, which had very impressive destructive scale.
He isn't shown fighting Vasco, Devon, Teach, Boa, or even the Kuja sisters at Amazon Lilly. He isn't shown fighting any YC from BBPs at Hachinuso... Garp literally had to 1 man against fodders + Vasco + Pizzaro + Shiryuu + Kuzan + San Juan...
Maybe I'm not seeing the same script from Oda as you guys are. But where is Oda showing Koby becoming a powerhouse admiral in parallel to Luffy becoming the Pirate King?? Where is this powerlevel progression that you're seeing from Koby?? Luffy/Zoro/etc have had insane growth spurts since timeskip, due to them constantly fighting against top dogs and being on verge of life n death, including DF awakenings, scientific powerups, sword upgrades, etc.
I don't think there's any marine fan who doesn't believe Koby will be an admiral whenever he reaches his peak. Argument is we don't think he'll be one in 6 months or year when the main story ends... but he'll be one in the Epilogue. Hell my guy Naruto needed a whole epilogue with years of timeskip after the main story ends to become a Hokage lol. You're acting as if Oda giving Koby the dream to be an admiral means he must become one within the main story.
-> That's an example of character who played huge roles in an arc's narrative despite being nowhere near the strongest of characters. That's not me making a comparison between the characters, just that Oda doesn't care for powerlevels vs narrative importance. Vergo is a fodder bum compared to Tensei/Chaton/Gion, he has more narrative importance in the series.
-> So you tell me it's disingenuous to compare him to characters who weren't powerful but had huge narrative importance... While then comparing Koby to Luffy... what?
Luffy has constantly lost and fought over and over and over and over and over against strong individuals in the series.
Koby has fought fodders, even after 2 years of training, he has only fought fodders. He was 1 relevant feat on panel, against essentially the ground in a non-1on1 combative situation. Just so we understand out of 1050+ chapters, Koby has 1 relevant feat of combat and it doesn't tell us anything about how strong he is in CQC. You're claiming Koby becoming an admiral is running in parallel to Luffy becoming PK right... ok, no problem, let's take a look at what Oda's done so far to build up that dream of Koby's so he'll be an admiral in parallel to Luffy becoming the PK... and we'll just go with other Marines who're coming up:
Drake X in Sabody pre-TS: Blocked Killer and Urouge's attacks together without his body shaking or anything of that sort.
Drake X in Wano: Went against Tobiroppo , Worstgen member, YC, Strongest CP0 , Numbers
Smoker at PH: fights Law, fights Luffy (while in Tashigi's body), fights Vergo, then fights Doffy.
Smokerr at MF: Went against Luffy, went against Boa
Smoker at Alabasta: Went against Ace
Sentomaru at Sabody pre-TS: Fights the SHPs and owns Luffy easily.
Sentomaru at Egghead: Fights Kizaru, fights Lucci
Tashigi at PH: Fights against Law, Fights against Monet.
Koby at reverie: Takes care of fodder pirates
Koby at Amazon Lilly: Is bruised up from fighting the normal Kuja, with the Kuja pirates all being fine.
Koby at Hachinuso: Is fighting fodder pirates, until at the very end he does a singular attack against a slow giant hand while Helmeppo and Grus allowed him to charge up, which had very impressive destructive scale.
He isn't shown fighting Vasco, Devon, Teach, Boa, or even the Kuja sisters at Amazon Lilly. He isn't shown fighting any YC from BBPs at Hachinuso... Garp literally had to 1 man against fodders + Vasco + Pizzaro + Shiryuu + Kuzan + San Juan...
Maybe I'm not seeing the same script from Oda as you guys are. But where is Oda showing Koby becoming a powerhouse admiral in parallel to Luffy becoming the Pirate King?? Where is this powerlevel progression that you're seeing from Koby?? Luffy/Zoro/etc have had insane growth spurts since timeskip, due to them constantly fighting against top dogs and being on verge of life n death, including DF awakenings, scientific powerups, sword upgrades, etc.
I don't think there's any marine fan who doesn't believe Koby will be an admiral whenever he reaches his peak. Argument is we don't think he'll be one in 6 months or year when the main story ends... but he'll be one in the Epilogue. Hell my guy Naruto needed a whole epilogue with years of timeskip after the main story ends to become a Hokage lol. You're acting as if Oda giving Koby the dream to be an admiral means he must become one within the main story.
I'm probably going to end this argument soon because I'm a little exhausted and it's also very clear you won't change your mindset, but, why does it matter that Smoker and Drake fought all those people when they never won against any of them?
Please, name a single time Smoker or Drake won a fight in this manga. I really can not remember.
Please, name a single time Smoker or Drake won a fight in this manga. I really can not remember.
Luffy fought Kaido, got his ass whooped, that led to a growth spurt. Zoro fought Kaido, got his ass whooped. Zoro fought King was getting his ass whooped, led to a growth spurt. Wins and losses don't matter. Extreme 1on1 fights against strong fighters trigger growth at a higher rate than anything else, especially after the fight the person's healed up, you don't need to win the said fight for that.
When did I ever say Koby needed to win? He can lose and get his ass kicked by them for all that matters. What I'm pointing out to you is, Oda isn't even having him fight relevant strong characters in 1on1s... despite there being abundance of characters he could've fought in both the arcs he's played a major role in.
You brought up his dream being in parrallel to Luffy's becoming Pirate King. I'm trying to highlight to you, that Oda is not showing what you're suggesting when it comes to powerlevel growth in parallel to Luffy. Sentomaru/Tashigi/Smoker/Drake are all marines who're also growing, and older than Koby... and Oda has given them more fights against relevant characters to showcase their prowess growth in singular arcs with limited fighting options, than he has done for Koby in multiple arcs with abundance of fighting options.
^^^ This is what matters to me, this is story progression. Oda has shown us Koby got stronger than his pre-TS self by having him do techniques we saw some strong characters from pre-TS doing like Soru and such. By having him display basic haki and even given him a singular powerful attack...that's telling us yea, Koby is much stronger than his pre-TS version. However, he's also essentially telling us he's not strong enough to compete against those people yet, thus he's never put against them. Nor are there any comparative statements for Koby made with any other character.
When did I ever say Koby needed to win? He can lose and get his ass kicked by them for all that matters. What I'm pointing out to you is, Oda isn't even having him fight relevant strong characters in 1on1s... despite there being abundance of characters he could've fought in both the arcs he's played a major role in.
You brought up his dream being in parrallel to Luffy's becoming Pirate King. I'm trying to highlight to you, that Oda is not showing what you're suggesting when it comes to powerlevel growth in parallel to Luffy. Sentomaru/Tashigi/Smoker/Drake are all marines who're also growing, and older than Koby... and Oda has given them more fights against relevant characters to showcase their prowess growth in singular arcs with limited fighting options, than he has done for Koby in multiple arcs with abundance of fighting options.
^^^ This is what matters to me, this is story progression. Oda has shown us Koby got stronger than his pre-TS self by having him do techniques we saw some strong characters from pre-TS doing like Soru and such. By having him display basic haki and even given him a singular powerful attack...that's telling us yea, Koby is much stronger than his pre-TS version. However, he's also essentially telling us he's not strong enough to compete against those people yet, thus he's never put against them. Nor are there any comparative statements for Koby made with any other character.
Sanji went from being like, YC4 level tops, to an Inbetweener just from fighting Queen.
But before that, he remained and Zoro remained at the same levels for multiple arcs while Luffy only got stronger.
It took from FMI to Wano for them to get new powerups, but they still got new powerups.
No clue why Koby can't be the same.
It's also weird that you act like Oda has just... Never shown a character either getting exponentially stronger out of nowhere, or has just had people be incredibly strong out of nowhere without showing how they got that strong.
But before that, he remained and Zoro remained at the same levels for multiple arcs while Luffy only got stronger.
It took from FMI to Wano for them to get new powerups, but they still got new powerups.
No clue why Koby can't be the same.
It's also weird that you act like Oda has just... Never shown a character either getting exponentially stronger out of nowhere, or has just had people be incredibly strong out of nowhere without showing how they got that strong.
He got his body destroyed at Punk Hazard, then fought Vergo, then fought Doflamingo.. then fought Judge... then got a suit that greatly enhanced him. Then in his fight against Queen he unlocks a scientific power, which provided a giant boost, while also getting haki boost gradually from all the people he fought and extreme conditions he overcame.
Not sure why you think this is at all comparable power progression for Koby, who has yet to receive a single 1on1 against any named character with over 1000+ chapters of the series.
Not sure why you think this is at all comparable power progression for Koby, who has yet to receive a single 1on1 against any named character with over 1000+ chapters of the series.
These characters aren't actually improving, though, that's my point. Sanji just had a few short little clashes and that was it. He never had an actual fight once up until Wano.
Same for Smoker, Lucci, Kidd, etc.
We never see these characters fight on screen, they just randomly pop up 20x stronger than they were before.
That's just how Shonens work.
Same for Smoker, Lucci, Kidd, etc.
We never see these characters fight on screen, they just randomly pop up 20x stronger than they were before.
That's just how Shonens work.
They are though lol. Oda is having Sanji fight battles after battles to showcase his growth. Sanji after full recovery by Zou is stronger than his PH and Dressrosa self. Then with the advancements made with his new suit he gets a powerboost heading into Wano, which Oda shows by having him clash with Drake and doing various things that highlight his growth with the suit. Then we move on to Onigashima and see him unlock powers and such. That's Oda showcasing Sanji's powerlevel progression growth.
Smoker once he enters post-TS, Oda has him face Law/Luffy/Vergo/Doflamingo all consecutively to showcase his various skills/powers, and putting on verge of death twice in that arc alone to extents that Koby has yet to experience, which triggers Haki growth. Not to mention he has a DF, which allows easier access for growth in terms of "Asspull" due to awakening/new techniques and etc.
Lucci once he enters post-TS, first thing Oda has him do is overcome Sentomaru's defense + have a clash on par with G5 luffy + then go on to fight Zoro... again being pushed to brinks of near death... that Koby has yet to experience... allowing for growth triggers for Haki. And again has a DF.
Kidd once he enters post-TS, is literally faced with Kaido and put down in a defeat, he then is faced with Kaido again, and then with Big Mom and then Shanks... pushed to near brink of death twice in the series.
Explain to me how fighting against Kuja fodder and getting bloodies, then fighting against Hachinuso fodders and needing to team up just to throw 1 attack on a giant rock arm... is the same as what the above are doing?
He doesn't. Smoker and Vergo have better haki feats.