Gyou’un + Chougaryu + Bananji + Gakuei vs Haku + Raku
- Thread starter BanditKanki
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Rakuakan vs Gyou’Un: Gyou’Un high diff, Rakuakan’s encirclement was nice but Gyou’Un’s offensive momentum would just be too much, and if Gyou’Un sets up the Raigoku it’s a 100% kill rate, Rakuakan is not escaping that lol.
Yoko vs Bananji: Yoko probably extreme diffs both martially and as a commander.
Hakuokoku vs Garyuu: From what they’ve shown, Garyuu mid diffs in a battle but from portrayal we should say that Hakuokoku can probably push him to high diff in a battle, and either way in a fight.
Gakuei vs Haidon is probably an extreme diff for GakuEi.
So yeah you have a matchup where 3/4 engagements clearly favor Zhao.
We honestly just need more info on the Renpa thing as in no way did these guys show that level of ability during the Han arc.
Yoko vs Bananji: Yoko probably extreme diffs both martially and as a commander.
Hakuokoku vs Garyuu: From what they’ve shown, Garyuu mid diffs in a battle but from portrayal we should say that Hakuokoku can probably push him to high diff in a battle, and either way in a fight.
Gakuei vs Haidon is probably an extreme diff for GakuEi.
So yeah you have a matchup where 3/4 engagements clearly favor Zhao.
We honestly just need more info on the Renpa thing as in no way did these guys show that level of ability during the Han arc.
Bear in mind what you saw from Raku vs Tou, was including Kanou, Rokuomi and Ryuukoku. Gyou’un has none of them.
How can you give Haidon vs Gakuei to Zhao? That seems insane. Haidon (with low morale) absorbed an attack from Shin and a wave of kyoukai, succumbing to a Kyoukai charge that was described as one of the most ferocious charges China had seen in years. What does Gakuei do here? Is Gakuei superior to a charge from Kyoukai and Shin?
Chougaryu vs Haku would likely be something of a stalemate. Haku isn’t going to charge in himself to leave himself exposed but he’s also not going to catch Chougaryu out.
Haku didn’t have the opportunity to show too much because he had a plan A of duelling Shin. The first part of that plan succeeded but then obviously he lost the duel lol.
There is also 2 additional Han Generals who can help in any battlefield.
I think they lived up to the hype. The biggest difference is Tou + Shin + Kyoukai + Rokuomi + Ryuukoku + Ten + Kanou is simply a stronger army than Renpa and 4HK. And it seems Hakoukoku refused to retreat lol.
How can you give Haidon vs Gakuei to Zhao? That seems insane. Haidon (with low morale) absorbed an attack from Shin and a wave of kyoukai, succumbing to a Kyoukai charge that was described as one of the most ferocious charges China had seen in years. What does Gakuei do here? Is Gakuei superior to a charge from Kyoukai and Shin?
Chougaryu vs Haku would likely be something of a stalemate. Haku isn’t going to charge in himself to leave himself exposed but he’s also not going to catch Chougaryu out.
Haku didn’t have the opportunity to show too much because he had a plan A of duelling Shin. The first part of that plan succeeded but then obviously he lost the duel lol.
There is also 2 additional Han Generals who can help in any battlefield.
I think they lived up to the hype. The biggest difference is Tou + Shin + Kyoukai + Rokuomi + Ryuukoku + Ten + Kanou is simply a stronger army than Renpa and 4HK. And it seems Hakoukoku refused to retreat lol.
Gyou’Un has the Tean Spears, and Gyou’Un’s offensive strength is greater than anybody in the Tou army.
Gakuei stalled out Zenou at KokuYou Hills lol. People forget about that one.
You think two dudes who got utterly clapped Shin and Tou two consecutive days in a row lived up to the hype of repelling Renpa and Gokei? Lol
Gakuei stalled out Zenou at KokuYou Hills lol. People forget about that one.
You think two dudes who got utterly clapped Shin and Tou two consecutive days in a row lived up to the hype of repelling Renpa and Gokei? Lol
The ten bows stay with Gyou’un and can absolutely not be compared to Rokuomi, Ryuukoku and Kanou (combined) as legitimate Generals lol. Come on now. They’ve never even been referred to as actual battlefield commanders.
Gakuei attacked Zenou with a surprise attack orchestrated by Keisha in forest terrain. As far as head on confrontations on the plains, we know he was overwhelmed by Akou’s initial charge.
It’s nonsensical to claim anyone got clapped on day 1. Tou himself told you that they were in a life and death scenario, Kanou was a walking corpse, Rokuomi had to give it everything just to stay in the game (against no notable commander, btw). On the other side, Shin sustained such injuries that he was unconscious overnight. This is Shin we are talking about, who is almost q6 level himself and one of the best duellers in the series. He literally could not maintain consciousness. How often have we seen that? Day 1 was very tightly contested and on a knife edge.
Day two was dominant, which was a natural progression of the result that followed the extremely tough conditions on day 1.
I think you should reread the battle lol.
Also to repeat, Han have two other Generals in this war.
Tou himself acknowledged Rakuakan’s strength. He knew the history and the hype and had total acknowledgement of his opponent.
Gakuei attacked Zenou with a surprise attack orchestrated by Keisha in forest terrain. As far as head on confrontations on the plains, we know he was overwhelmed by Akou’s initial charge.
It’s nonsensical to claim anyone got clapped on day 1. Tou himself told you that they were in a life and death scenario, Kanou was a walking corpse, Rokuomi had to give it everything just to stay in the game (against no notable commander, btw). On the other side, Shin sustained such injuries that he was unconscious overnight. This is Shin we are talking about, who is almost q6 level himself and one of the best duellers in the series. He literally could not maintain consciousness. How often have we seen that? Day 1 was very tightly contested and on a knife edge.
Day two was dominant, which was a natural progression of the result that followed the extremely tough conditions on day 1.
I think you should reread the battle lol.
Also to repeat, Han have two other Generals in this war.
Tou himself acknowledged Rakuakan’s strength. He knew the history and the hype and had total acknowledgement of his opponent.
Gyou'un is basically a lower grade Tou with high level Instinctual Type ability. He and Chou Ga Ryuu, who is on par with the likes of Gen Po, were instructed in strategy and tactics by and to the standards of RSJ. They accumulated decades of experience and opportunities. Though not of the same pedigree, Ba Nan Ji is likewise a seasoned, battle-hardened general on par with a Rin Bu Kun, with better judgment and tactical acumen. The pedigree of general on the Zhao side is greater than you considered.
Hai Don VS Gaku'Ei is a wash. I could see experience favour Gaku'Ei when he's not facing someone he doesn't have a grudge against.
Yoko VS BNJ is an insulting proposition on the face of it. BNJ is a seasoned commander and deputy to a bona fide 3GH. Yoko is an enforcer and unconfirmed to even be capable of leading an army. Yoko is the stronger warrior, but as we've learned, BNJ doesn't insist on 1v1 duels. Until we learn otherwise of Yoko, I say BNJ crushes him easily in army to army conflict.
Raku and Haku VS Gyou'un and CGR is imo not as close as you think either. Raku and Gyou'un both favour encirclements and isolating, but only one of them is said to have slain a plurality Great Generals with their techniques. Gyou'un's Instincts, martial might, Ten Spears and Rai'un are rather devastating counters to Raku's tactics and elites. imo he's the better general. Raku's talent may be greater, but not as it stands in my view.
Haku VS CGR is perhaps the most interesting match up. Scale opens up more dimensions to CGR's game, but at 20K VS 20K Haku has less to worry about. Nevertheless, Jo Shou and Jou Rin and the Dojaku are all formidable assets, and if CGR could pull off Shifting Sands with 10K, I have no doubt double that figure opens up more opportunities.
Gyou'un's Instincts are the most important factor in this battle, and no one on the Han side is equipped to counter that. Secondly, Gyou'un and CGR work extremely well together, and BNJ is a strong collaborator, this in turn opens up more opportunities for Gyou'un to hang bank and light his fires to create an opportunity that will devastate the Han.
There's more to say, but I'll bottom line it on this: there's so much more acumen for warfare on the Zhao side.
Quality > quantity applies here.
Impossible to judge without context.
Hai Don VS Gaku'Ei is a wash. I could see experience favour Gaku'Ei when he's not facing someone he doesn't have a grudge against.
Yoko VS BNJ is an insulting proposition on the face of it. BNJ is a seasoned commander and deputy to a bona fide 3GH. Yoko is an enforcer and unconfirmed to even be capable of leading an army. Yoko is the stronger warrior, but as we've learned, BNJ doesn't insist on 1v1 duels. Until we learn otherwise of Yoko, I say BNJ crushes him easily in army to army conflict.
Raku and Haku VS Gyou'un and CGR is imo not as close as you think either. Raku and Gyou'un both favour encirclements and isolating, but only one of them is said to have slain a plurality Great Generals with their techniques. Gyou'un's Instincts, martial might, Ten Spears and Rai'un are rather devastating counters to Raku's tactics and elites. imo he's the better general. Raku's talent may be greater, but not as it stands in my view.
Haku VS CGR is perhaps the most interesting match up. Scale opens up more dimensions to CGR's game, but at 20K VS 20K Haku has less to worry about. Nevertheless, Jo Shou and Jou Rin and the Dojaku are all formidable assets, and if CGR could pull off Shifting Sands with 10K, I have no doubt double that figure opens up more opportunities.
Gyou'un's Instincts are the most important factor in this battle, and no one on the Han side is equipped to counter that. Secondly, Gyou'un and CGR work extremely well together, and BNJ is a strong collaborator, this in turn opens up more opportunities for Gyou'un to hang bank and light his fires to create an opportunity that will devastate the Han.
There's more to say, but I'll bottom line it on this: there's so much more acumen for warfare on the Zhao side.
Quality > quantity applies here.
Impossible to judge without context.
Why do you completely ignore their backstory? Like it’s not a case of ‘we need to hear more’, but you directly oppose and go against it?
I kinda put my thoughts on all these in my response above, but Gakuei one is genuinely puzzling to me. Heck you could literally make that a Haidon and Teiko and Bikei vs Gakuei in a 3v1. Bear in mind Haidon’s defense alone was very very hyped in the extremely short period panel time we saw.
We know Bananji does like to go for duels as he’s gone for heads often. You could very easily say it’s him that gets targeted and entangled in a 3vs1, which was the plan for Shin but Kyoukai prevented it.
Why do you think Gyou’un does so much better than the COMBINED force of Tou + Rokuomi + Kanou + Ryuukoku?
Shifting sands wouldn’t be an appropriate formation for this battle as there’s nobody to use it on. It was designed for Shin, Kyou, Ouki, Oukotsu types but there’s none like that here.
There’s obviously hundreds of avenues it could go down, but seemingly you would likely see the Han approach to be Raku vs Gyouun, with Raku trying to contain Gyouun for a while. This tactic that could be broken, if Gyou’un has a desire + to be incredibly aggressive. His offensive capabilities need to be equal to that of the combination of Tou + Rokuomi + Kanou + Ryuukoku, otherwise it is HIGHLY questionable that it would succeed.
Meanwhile, Yoko and Haku subs would likely enable Bananji to reach them before creating some sort of ambush. This may happen with Gakuei, it depends who they target.
But I am confused as to your total disregard of what Hara wrote about them and how Tou substantiated that pedigree with his own words? I don’t think you should refuse to acknowledge it because we don’t know the facts. The rest of China believed the hype and Tou understood it when assessing Rakuakan’s abilities. With Haku, i understand we didn’t see his wider skillset.
I think as far as quality is concerned, you’re looking at Raku being the best. Gyouun second. Chougaryu/Haku can be debated. Bananji next because we don’t know the limit of Yoko’s capabilities. Definitely wouldn’t put Gakuei above Haidon.
I kinda put my thoughts on all these in my response above, but Gakuei one is genuinely puzzling to me. Heck you could literally make that a Haidon and Teiko and Bikei vs Gakuei in a 3v1. Bear in mind Haidon’s defense alone was very very hyped in the extremely short period panel time we saw.
We know Bananji does like to go for duels as he’s gone for heads often. You could very easily say it’s him that gets targeted and entangled in a 3vs1, which was the plan for Shin but Kyoukai prevented it.
Why do you think Gyou’un does so much better than the COMBINED force of Tou + Rokuomi + Kanou + Ryuukoku?
Shifting sands wouldn’t be an appropriate formation for this battle as there’s nobody to use it on. It was designed for Shin, Kyou, Ouki, Oukotsu types but there’s none like that here.
There’s obviously hundreds of avenues it could go down, but seemingly you would likely see the Han approach to be Raku vs Gyouun, with Raku trying to contain Gyouun for a while. This tactic that could be broken, if Gyou’un has a desire + to be incredibly aggressive. His offensive capabilities need to be equal to that of the combination of Tou + Rokuomi + Kanou + Ryuukoku, otherwise it is HIGHLY questionable that it would succeed.
Meanwhile, Yoko and Haku subs would likely enable Bananji to reach them before creating some sort of ambush. This may happen with Gakuei, it depends who they target.
But I am confused as to your total disregard of what Hara wrote about them and how Tou substantiated that pedigree with his own words? I don’t think you should refuse to acknowledge it because we don’t know the facts. The rest of China believed the hype and Tou understood it when assessing Rakuakan’s abilities. With Haku, i understand we didn’t see his wider skillset.
I think as far as quality is concerned, you’re looking at Raku being the best. Gyouun second. Chougaryu/Haku can be debated. Bananji next because we don’t know the limit of Yoko’s capabilities. Definitely wouldn’t put Gakuei above Haidon.
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I find it interesting you think I am ignoring their backstories. I am leaning on the inexperience of Raku and Haku as a major factor precisely because it is in their backstory they have limited experience.
Similarly, I underlined the pedigree of Gyou'un and CGR in relation to RSJ because that is their backstory. I described BNJ as a battle-hardened and seasoned commander because it is in his backstory as a veteran of Ganmon, and a deputy to Ri Boku.
We may see it differently, but to say I am ignoring backstories is simply incorrect. Bottom line: I do not think backstories favour Raku and Haku at all. Least of all against such veteran commanders as Gyou'un, CGR and BNJ in particular.
Context. Hai Don's defense was good, but he was also facing a HSU with greenhorns making up more than half their numbers.
Gaku'Ei will be in command of elite Zhao soldiers inherited from Kei Sha. Their strength was demonstrated at Koku You, and again acknowledged at Shukai by the likes of Shin, Ou Hon, Gyou'un and CGR - even RBK if you consider his placement and standing. If he is to be outnumbered or in trouble, I did highlight the collaborative ability of BNJ, and Gyou'un and CGR will likewise take advantage where there is opportunity.
I could concede Gaku'Ei loses his match up every time, but I don't think it makes much of a difference. That's how much I see the gap between Gyou'un + CGR + BNJ collectively VS Raku + Haku + Yoko.
As I said, Gyou'un has really good assets in his army that match up with Raku's, and he also specialises in encirclements, only he has claimed the lives of several Great Generals - if the boasts of his subordinate can be trusted, which in this specific context I believe it can be.
Tou handled Raku relatively easily, all told, and he had the burden of greenhorns. I'm assuming Gyou'un does not?
That can be debated, but the point is, if a tactic of that calibre is available to CGR at 10K, then 20K should open up his bag even more.
I'm inclined to agree this is the match up, but what you're not addressing is that Gyou'un can do what Raku does and has better feats doing it. Likewise, encircling Gyou'un will be difficult because, as I highlighted earlier, he has the Ten Spears and his Rai'Un Unit with him. Those core units make it extremely difficult for Raku to exploit his elites or Yoko.
And that's before we loop on another point you've not addressed: Gyou'un's instincts and the lack of a counter on the Han side.
BNJ is very sharp, and I think he, Gyou'un and CGR would happily use Gaku'Ei as bait with or without his knowledge, so I'm not too worried about either BNJ or Gaku'Ei being targeted.
Naturally, attacking one of Gyou'un and CGR would likely result in being flanked or pincered by the other, possibly with BNJ assisting also.
Setting aside Hara is prone to exaggeration to make a point and raise excitement/momentum quickly, his writing was almost exclusively to the talent and potential of Raku and, to a lesser extent, Haku. Not their actual present ability.
Tou's most praising assessment are his projections of their wasted potential. I think you're confused because you've misunderstood.
I'm not refusing to acknowledge the statement. I am simply not assuming any meaning due to a lack of sufficient context for the events described.
I'm of the view you need a lot of context to seriously examine anything. Like this for example:
There was hype "more than 20 years" ago in the story. It's 230 BC now, what do we know about was going on around 253~250 BC when Raku and Haku were making names for themselves?
256 BC - Kyou attacks Han and conquers the castles of You and Fushou, killing 40K. Kyou then invades Zhao and conquers over 20 provinces, capturing and slaying 90K. (ch 117)
254 BC - Kyou takes castle Go of Wei. The state of Han and Wei surrender in fear (ch 117)
253 BC - Kyou is slain at Bayou, Ou Ki retires, number of 6GG unknown, Fire Dragons imprisoned beside Go Kei
248 BC - Gyou'un & CGR retire from battle, Rin Shou Jo dies around this time, number of 3GH unknown
244 BC - Bayou II, Ou Ki dies
230 BC - Tou & Ri Shin invade Han
Kyou was clearly terrorising Han up until close around her death in 253 BC and Ou Ki appears to have been the last living 6GG for some time at the time of his death in 245 BC.
Go Kei was the last Fire Dragon remaining by 253 BC. It's quite possible RSJ left active duty up to a year or more before his death, some time after Gyoun'un and CGR fought their last battle in 248 BC.
I say all this to say, for as empathic as you are on the names of Raku and Haku rising to the top in China once upon a time, it's not like that happened at a particularly busy period for competing talent. That context matters.
I disagree, my ranking looks very different, but that's to be expected given we have very different perspectives of these characters.
I see it as: Gyou'un > Raku >= CGR > BNJ >= Haku > Gaku'Ei >= Yoko > Hai Don
The last 3 could switch in any order.
Similarly, I underlined the pedigree of Gyou'un and CGR in relation to RSJ because that is their backstory. I described BNJ as a battle-hardened and seasoned commander because it is in his backstory as a veteran of Ganmon, and a deputy to Ri Boku.
We may see it differently, but to say I am ignoring backstories is simply incorrect. Bottom line: I do not think backstories favour Raku and Haku at all. Least of all against such veteran commanders as Gyou'un, CGR and BNJ in particular.
Context. Hai Don's defense was good, but he was also facing a HSU with greenhorns making up more than half their numbers.
Gaku'Ei will be in command of elite Zhao soldiers inherited from Kei Sha. Their strength was demonstrated at Koku You, and again acknowledged at Shukai by the likes of Shin, Ou Hon, Gyou'un and CGR - even RBK if you consider his placement and standing. If he is to be outnumbered or in trouble, I did highlight the collaborative ability of BNJ, and Gyou'un and CGR will likewise take advantage where there is opportunity.
I could concede Gaku'Ei loses his match up every time, but I don't think it makes much of a difference. That's how much I see the gap between Gyou'un + CGR + BNJ collectively VS Raku + Haku + Yoko.
As I said, Gyou'un has really good assets in his army that match up with Raku's, and he also specialises in encirclements, only he has claimed the lives of several Great Generals - if the boasts of his subordinate can be trusted, which in this specific context I believe it can be.
Tou handled Raku relatively easily, all told, and he had the burden of greenhorns. I'm assuming Gyou'un does not?
That can be debated, but the point is, if a tactic of that calibre is available to CGR at 10K, then 20K should open up his bag even more.
I'm inclined to agree this is the match up, but what you're not addressing is that Gyou'un can do what Raku does and has better feats doing it. Likewise, encircling Gyou'un will be difficult because, as I highlighted earlier, he has the Ten Spears and his Rai'Un Unit with him. Those core units make it extremely difficult for Raku to exploit his elites or Yoko.
And that's before we loop on another point you've not addressed: Gyou'un's instincts and the lack of a counter on the Han side.
BNJ is very sharp, and I think he, Gyou'un and CGR would happily use Gaku'Ei as bait with or without his knowledge, so I'm not too worried about either BNJ or Gaku'Ei being targeted.
Naturally, attacking one of Gyou'un and CGR would likely result in being flanked or pincered by the other, possibly with BNJ assisting also.
Setting aside Hara is prone to exaggeration to make a point and raise excitement/momentum quickly, his writing was almost exclusively to the talent and potential of Raku and, to a lesser extent, Haku. Not their actual present ability.
Tou's most praising assessment are his projections of their wasted potential. I think you're confused because you've misunderstood.
I'm not refusing to acknowledge the statement. I am simply not assuming any meaning due to a lack of sufficient context for the events described.
I'm of the view you need a lot of context to seriously examine anything. Like this for example:
There was hype "more than 20 years" ago in the story. It's 230 BC now, what do we know about was going on around 253~250 BC when Raku and Haku were making names for themselves?
256 BC - Kyou attacks Han and conquers the castles of You and Fushou, killing 40K. Kyou then invades Zhao and conquers over 20 provinces, capturing and slaying 90K. (ch 117)
254 BC - Kyou takes castle Go of Wei. The state of Han and Wei surrender in fear (ch 117)
253 BC - Kyou is slain at Bayou, Ou Ki retires, number of 6GG unknown, Fire Dragons imprisoned beside Go Kei
248 BC - Gyou'un & CGR retire from battle, Rin Shou Jo dies around this time, number of 3GH unknown
244 BC - Bayou II, Ou Ki dies
230 BC - Tou & Ri Shin invade Han
Kyou was clearly terrorising Han up until close around her death in 253 BC and Ou Ki appears to have been the last living 6GG for some time at the time of his death in 245 BC.
Go Kei was the last Fire Dragon remaining by 253 BC. It's quite possible RSJ left active duty up to a year or more before his death, some time after Gyoun'un and CGR fought their last battle in 248 BC.
I say all this to say, for as empathic as you are on the names of Raku and Haku rising to the top in China once upon a time, it's not like that happened at a particularly busy period for competing talent. That context matters.
I disagree, my ranking looks very different, but that's to be expected given we have very different perspectives of these characters.
I see it as: Gyou'un > Raku >= CGR > BNJ >= Haku > Gaku'Ei >= Yoko > Hai Don
The last 3 could switch in any order.
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I find it interesting you think I am ignoring their backstories. I am leaning on the inexperience of Raku and Haku as a major factor precisely because it is in their backstory they have limited experience.
Similarly, I underlined the pedigree of Gyou'un and CGR in relation to RSJ because that is their backstory. I described BNJ as a battle-hardened and seasoned commander because it is in his backstory as a veteran of Ganmon, and a deputy to Ri Boku.
We may see it differently, but to say I am ignoring backstories is simply incorrect. Bottom line: I do not think backstories favour Raku and Haku at all. Least of all against such veteran commanders as Gyou'un, CGR and BNJ in particular.
Context. Hai Don's defense was good, but he was also facing a HSU with greenhorns making up more than half their numbers.
Gaku'Ei will be in command of elite Zhao soldiers inherited from Kei Sha. Their strength was demonstrated at Koku You, and again acknowledged at Shukai by the likes of Shin, Ou Hon, Gyou'un and CGR - even RBK if you consider his placement and standing. If he is to be outnumbered or in trouble, I did highlight the collaborative ability of BNJ, and Gyou'un and CGR will likewise take advantage where there is opportunity.
I could concede Gaku'Ei loses his match up every time, but I don't think it makes much of a difference. That's how much I see the gap between Gyou'un + CGR + BNJ collectively VS Raku + Haku + Yoko.
As I said, Gyou'un has really good assets in his army that match up with Raku's, and he also specialises in encirclements, only he has claimed the lives of several Great Generals - if the boasts of his subordinate can be trusted, which in this specific context I believe it can be.
Tou handled Raku relatively easily, all told, and he had the burden of greenhorns. I'm assuming Gyou'un does not?
That can be debated, but the point is, if a tactic of that calibre is available to CGR at 10K, then 20K should open up his bag even more.
I'm inclined to agree this is the match up, but what you're not addressing is that Gyou'un can do what Raku does and has better feats doing it. Likewise, encircling Gyou'un will be difficult because, as I highlighted earlier, he has the Ten Spears and his Rai'Un Unit with him. Those core units make it extremely difficult for Raku to exploit his elites or Yoko.
And that's before we loop on another point you've not addressed: Gyou'un's instincts and the lack of a counter on the Han side.
BNJ is very sharp, and I think he, Gyou'un and CGR would happily use Gaku'Ei as bait with or without his knowledge, so I'm not too worried about either BNJ or Gaku'Ei being targeted.
Naturally, attacking one of Gyou'un and CGR would likely result in being flanked or pincered by the other, possibly with BNJ assisting also.
Setting aside Hara is prone to exaggeration to make a point and raise excitement/momentum quickly, his writing was almost exclusively to the talent and potential of Raku and, to a lesser extent, Haku. Not their actual present ability.
Tou's most praising assessment are his projections of their wasted potential. I think you're confused because you've misunderstood.
I'm not refusing to acknowledge the statement. I am simply not assuming any meaning due to a lack of sufficient context for the events described.
I'm of the view you need a lot of context to seriously examine anything. Like this for example:
There was hype "more than 20 years" ago in the story. It's 230 BC now, what do we know about was going on around 253~250 BC when Raku and Haku were making names for themselves?
256 BC - Kyou attacks Han and conquers the castles of You and Fushou, killing 40K. Kyou then invades Zhao and conquers over 20 provinces, capturing and slaying 90K. (ch 117)
254 BC - Kyou takes castle Go of Wei. The state of Han and Wei surrender in fear (ch 117)
253 BC - Kyou is slain at Bayou, Ou Ki retires, number of 6GG unknown, Fire Dragons imprisoned beside Go Kei
248 BC - Gyou'un & CGR retire from battle, Rin Shou Jo dies around this time, number of 3GH unknown
244 BC - Bayou II, Ou Ki dies
230 BC - Tou & Ri Shin invade Han
Kyou was clearly terrorising Han up until close around her death in 253 BC and Ou Ki appears to have been the last living 6GG for some time at the time of his death in 245 BC.
Go Kei was the last Fire Dragon remaining by 253 BC. It's quite possible RSJ left active duty up to a year or more before his death, some time after Gyoun'un and CGR fought their last battle in 248 BC.
I say all this to say, for as empathic as you are on the names of Raku and Haku rising to the top in China once upon a time, it's not like that happened at a particularly busy period for competing talent. That context matters.
I disagree, my ranking looks very different, but that's to be expected given we have very different perspectives of these characters.
I see it as: Gyou'un > Raku >= CGR > BNJ >= Haku > Gaku'Ei >= Yoko > Hai Don
The last 3 could switch in any order.
Similarly, I underlined the pedigree of Gyou'un and CGR in relation to RSJ because that is their backstory. I described BNJ as a battle-hardened and seasoned commander because it is in his backstory as a veteran of Ganmon, and a deputy to Ri Boku.
We may see it differently, but to say I am ignoring backstories is simply incorrect. Bottom line: I do not think backstories favour Raku and Haku at all. Least of all against such veteran commanders as Gyou'un, CGR and BNJ in particular.
Context. Hai Don's defense was good, but he was also facing a HSU with greenhorns making up more than half their numbers.
Gaku'Ei will be in command of elite Zhao soldiers inherited from Kei Sha. Their strength was demonstrated at Koku You, and again acknowledged at Shukai by the likes of Shin, Ou Hon, Gyou'un and CGR - even RBK if you consider his placement and standing. If he is to be outnumbered or in trouble, I did highlight the collaborative ability of BNJ, and Gyou'un and CGR will likewise take advantage where there is opportunity.
I could concede Gaku'Ei loses his match up every time, but I don't think it makes much of a difference. That's how much I see the gap between Gyou'un + CGR + BNJ collectively VS Raku + Haku + Yoko.
As I said, Gyou'un has really good assets in his army that match up with Raku's, and he also specialises in encirclements, only he has claimed the lives of several Great Generals - if the boasts of his subordinate can be trusted, which in this specific context I believe it can be.
Tou handled Raku relatively easily, all told, and he had the burden of greenhorns. I'm assuming Gyou'un does not?
That can be debated, but the point is, if a tactic of that calibre is available to CGR at 10K, then 20K should open up his bag even more.
I'm inclined to agree this is the match up, but what you're not addressing is that Gyou'un can do what Raku does and has better feats doing it. Likewise, encircling Gyou'un will be difficult because, as I highlighted earlier, he has the Ten Spears and his Rai'Un Unit with him. Those core units make it extremely difficult for Raku to exploit his elites or Yoko.
And that's before we loop on another point you've not addressed: Gyou'un's instincts and the lack of a counter on the Han side.
BNJ is very sharp, and I think he, Gyou'un and CGR would happily use Gaku'Ei as bait with or without his knowledge, so I'm not too worried about either BNJ or Gaku'Ei being targeted.
Naturally, attacking one of Gyou'un and CGR would likely result in being flanked or pincered by the other, possibly with BNJ assisting also.
Setting aside Hara is prone to exaggeration to make a point and raise excitement/momentum quickly, his writing was almost exclusively to the talent and potential of Raku and, to a lesser extent, Haku. Not their actual present ability.
Tou's most praising assessment are his projections of their wasted potential. I think you're confused because you've misunderstood.
I'm not refusing to acknowledge the statement. I am simply not assuming any meaning due to a lack of sufficient context for the events described.
I'm of the view you need a lot of context to seriously examine anything. Like this for example:
There was hype "more than 20 years" ago in the story. It's 230 BC now, what do we know about was going on around 253~250 BC when Raku and Haku were making names for themselves?
256 BC - Kyou attacks Han and conquers the castles of You and Fushou, killing 40K. Kyou then invades Zhao and conquers over 20 provinces, capturing and slaying 90K. (ch 117)
254 BC - Kyou takes castle Go of Wei. The state of Han and Wei surrender in fear (ch 117)
253 BC - Kyou is slain at Bayou, Ou Ki retires, number of 6GG unknown, Fire Dragons imprisoned beside Go Kei
248 BC - Gyou'un & CGR retire from battle, Rin Shou Jo dies around this time, number of 3GH unknown
244 BC - Bayou II, Ou Ki dies
230 BC - Tou & Ri Shin invade Han
Kyou was clearly terrorising Han up until close around her death in 253 BC and Ou Ki appears to have been the last living 6GG for some time at the time of his death in 245 BC.
Go Kei was the last Fire Dragon remaining by 253 BC. It's quite possible RSJ left active duty up to a year or more before his death, some time after Gyoun'un and CGR fought their last battle in 248 BC.
I say all this to say, for as empathic as you are on the names of Raku and Haku rising to the top in China once upon a time, it's not like that happened at a particularly busy period for competing talent. That context matters.
I disagree, my ranking looks very different, but that's to be expected given we have very different perspectives of these characters.
I see it as: Gyou'un > Raku >= CGR > BNJ >= Haku > Gaku'Ei >= Yoko > Hai Don
The last 3 could switch in any order.
1. How were Raku/Haku able to beat Gokei and even Renpa with his 4HK if they their strength was around Chougaryu/Bananji level?
2. Just how insanely favourable must their conditions be - every single time, in totally different locations, for Chougaryu/Bananji level guys to beat Renpa and his 4HK + Gokei and his army?
3. If these conditions were so incredibly stacked, which they must be for Chougaryu/Bananji level guys to beat Renpa + HK, then what is the point of this hype? Would Hara porposely give them a hype that he must know is actually, a load of nonsense in as far as assessing their strength?
4. Could Bananji replicate repeated levels of warfare, against multiple top tiers with different skill sets, to a standard that would have all of China in awe? Bare in mind the only remotely comparable hype of having all of China be obsessed and shocked at two new generals would be CW Karin and GHM.
5. Do you think Ouki would ever look at Bananji and see him as someone that he looked at and wanted to fight as equals?
6. Would all of China be looking at Bananji and be desperate to bring him in? Again I would say this hype reminds me of SSK with Juuko. Does Bananji equal Sentouun or Man’U (probably comparable in a stylistic sense)?
I actually only had three questions but the other three organically came as I was typing lol
They repelled them in unknown scenarios.
Repelling and actually beating somebody in face to face war two entirely different things.
Uh.... yes??
The greatest strategist of Ouki's family, Ousen, got used as hypetool for Bananji's martial might...
Would all of China be looking to bring in the man, Hara recognizes as the "strength" of the greatest Zhao 3 in history? Yes.
He's superior to Sentoun, Man'U is a debate. I would put him over ManU based on strictly WZI feats. But idk if Hara decided to retcon the strategical part of Bananji, looking at the stats, or if it's just another Shouheikun/Kashibou strength stat situation. If he still has the strategical prowess he displayed at Shukai I would put him over Man'U. But if he got retconned then below Man'U.
The only issue with Bananji that's stopping somebody like me from putting him in talks among the Zhao 3/Qin 6 is the sheer fact he can't access his true martial prowess without certain conditions being met, which is not the case for any of the Zhao 3/Qin 6 martial monsters. And so far in the series the conditions to bring out his true martial prowess were only met against the Xiongnu, and not on the plains.
Repelling and actually beating somebody in face to face war two entirely different things.
Uh.... yes??
The greatest strategist of Ouki's family, Ousen, got used as hypetool for Bananji's martial might...
Would all of China be looking to bring in the man, Hara recognizes as the "strength" of the greatest Zhao 3 in history? Yes.
He's superior to Sentoun, Man'U is a debate. I would put him over ManU based on strictly WZI feats. But idk if Hara decided to retcon the strategical part of Bananji, looking at the stats, or if it's just another Shouheikun/Kashibou strength stat situation. If he still has the strategical prowess he displayed at Shukai I would put him over Man'U. But if he got retconned then below Man'U.
The only issue with Bananji that's stopping somebody like me from putting him in talks among the Zhao 3/Qin 6 is the sheer fact he can't access his true martial prowess without certain conditions being met, which is not the case for any of the Zhao 3/Qin 6 martial monsters. And so far in the series the conditions to bring out his true martial prowess were only met against the Xiongnu, and not on the plains.
It’s true….however these were done via means that it was these two that became the focus of all of China, which would not be the case it was due to hugely favorable variables (multiple times). They must have shown incredible abilities outside of favorable conditions
This is true
This does not mean Ouki would watch him from afar and want to battle him in a war. Ouki didn’t even want to duel someone who is far superior to Bananji.
Ouki was interested in meeting Raku as a peer, or rival equivalent. He is a snob, in many ways. Ouki wouldn’t have his eye on Bananji, he’d have his eyes on the man above Bananji.
Are you Woikorus from TMF?
This is true
This does not mean Ouki would watch him from afar and want to battle him in a war. Ouki didn’t even want to duel someone who is far superior to Bananji.
Ouki was interested in meeting Raku as a peer, or rival equivalent. He is a snob, in many ways. Ouki wouldn’t have his eye on Bananji, he’d have his eyes on the man above Bananji.
Are you Woikorus from TMF?
- Part of the reason they was the focus is because they were new rising stars where as Renpa and co weren't. And this shit lasted for a year or so at max. They displayed solid talent in creating or taking advantage of a situation that repelled the said armies. And with details being left out 90% of the times for Kingdom "news", they gained the reputations of those that repelled Renpa and co... thus become focus of all of China. Just as we know there was more than just warfare that went into Ousen beating Riboku at WZI, but to China... Ousen clapped that mf Riboku.
-> Gaimou has never shown to be "Far" superior to Bananji. Bananji has the portrayal of being in that same tier as Gaimou through his Renpa hype. And particularly at the very end of Shukai where he shits on any portrayal Gaimou has going for him martially. Difference just being he can't bring out his true prowess at will, unlike Gaimou. Ouki looked down on Giamou because he thought he would clap Giamou as Gaimou wasn't fighting for anything relevant. That's boring to Ouki.
-> RakuaKan was the leader, Bananji is an underling. Ouki isn't an underling, he's a leader. So by sheer status he would meet Riboku. But that has no relevance to individual prowess. Though, Rakuakan is the superior general to Bananji. But I didn't reply to any Rakuakan vs Bananji quote.
-> I have no idea what TMF is.
-> Gaimou has never shown to be "Far" superior to Bananji. Bananji has the portrayal of being in that same tier as Gaimou through his Renpa hype. And particularly at the very end of Shukai where he shits on any portrayal Gaimou has going for him martially. Difference just being he can't bring out his true prowess at will, unlike Gaimou. Ouki looked down on Giamou because he thought he would clap Giamou as Gaimou wasn't fighting for anything relevant. That's boring to Ouki.
-> RakuaKan was the leader, Bananji is an underling. Ouki isn't an underling, he's a leader. So by sheer status he would meet Riboku. But that has no relevance to individual prowess. Though, Rakuakan is the superior general to Bananji. But I didn't reply to any Rakuakan vs Bananji quote.
-> I have no idea what TMF is.
I’ve debated far too much Raku stuff this week across here/discord/fan verse forums so I’m gonna just leave that for now if it’s ok lol. Burned me out on a character I’m not too invested in :D
But RE Bananji, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I meant Ouki would have interest in guys he sees, thinks or hears about being true, worthy GG level who is worth his time. Bananji is not that guy. Ouki is not watching him from a far and thinking about meeting him as a rival, lead commander who he can look eye to eye with as a potential rival.
Gaimou is obviously far above Bananji a duel. The difference in hype, portrayal and stats is huge - and I’m someone who is usually defending Bananji.
RE TMF - ok. It’s just you’re only the second person I’ve seen with this level of hype towards Bananji and you say similar things to what he did
But RE Bananji, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I meant Ouki would have interest in guys he sees, thinks or hears about being true, worthy GG level who is worth his time. Bananji is not that guy. Ouki is not watching him from a far and thinking about meeting him as a rival, lead commander who he can look eye to eye with as a potential rival.
Gaimou is obviously far above Bananji a duel. The difference in hype, portrayal and stats is huge - and I’m someone who is usually defending Bananji.
RE TMF - ok. It’s just you’re only the second person I’ve seen with this level of hype towards Bananji and you say similar things to what he did