Versus Battle Kyoukai vs Akou

[Cichy]

Not really lmfao, Ousen himself is a better military mind than every head of military in China with the exception of Riboku and maybe current Shouheikun, and Akou can replicate multiple of his tactics to perfection.

It’s an apples to oranges comparison for sure, comparing someone who can use multiple six GG tactics perfectly to someone who is capable of reading a countering them, but you are really underrating Akou. Generals who can replicate multiple 6GG/3GH tactics are rare.

Thats cool, but Akou isn't Ousen. Akou really only shown one formation that is actually top tier and all the other stuff we've seen from him is just regular warfare that was also shown by other Ousen's vassals.

She targeted Haidon on day one of the Han battle, this was specifically told to us. She also failed to reach him on day one of the Han battle,

Bruh, she had 1:10 number disadvantage. Why does it even matter? Haidon simply combined his insane number advantage with his special defense to stall. Besides, her main goal was to stop Haidon from making a pincer and she succeeded at that.

For comparison, Gyou’Un negged Gunei using mini-Ousen tactics in less than 30 minutes.

Just a further point that most of those elite Ousen tactics aren't really that great.

 

[BanditKanki]

Bro if Gunei can use 6GG level tactics, even if him doing so is “not quite on Akou’s level”, that still puts him tiers above standard generals like Haidon. You just completely made up him being nowhere near Akou’s level when that’s never what the manga stated.

This gaslighting to make Shitkai even remotely close to Akou is shameless.

Being able to use the basics of tactics that a Q6 guy uses, does not actually mean Q6 tactics. Akou was capable of performing that move to Ousen’s level. Gunei was not and this is where you are making your mistake. Ousen’s level of warfare is using those tactics to their peak potential. You would be able to find guys that have the potential to use varying levels.

Gunei got utterly destroyed by someone resembling an elite opponent. For you to pull out some fan fiction that he’s actually close to Akou is…..bizarre. One of the most random takes I’ve heard for a while, actually. Akou is an incredible general with bucket loads of hype, portrayal and feats. Gunei has none of the sort.

Kyoukai has been compared to Kyou multiple times. In this arc she was on the same page as Tou. As a General, Hara said she performed one of the best feats China had seen in years. She’s not too far off the other new gen, who are virging on Q6 calibre if not there already, which is a level far beyond Akou.

There’s not too much wrong in saying Akou may win here, albeit you are betting all your chips Akou going all out defense against her, which is somewhat out of character in a situation such as this. But your reasoning is off and by suggesting it’s mad to vote for her, is a bit ridiculous.

You need to get with the times and understand where we are at with this manga. The new gen are almost the normal gen.

And the less said about your Gunei hype, the better lol (no offense)

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Thats cool, but Akou isn't Ousen. Akou really only shown one formation that is actually top tier and all the other stuff we've seen from him is just regular warfare that was also shown by other Ousen's vassals.

What Akou has shown isn’t relevant to the fact that we know Akou can use multiple 6GG level tactics to perfection. Which is something that only Heavenly King level commanders can hope to compare to. Kyoukai having one explosive charge doesn’t even remotely compare to that hype. If we go out on a completely baseless limb and call Kyoukai’s charges 6GG level, that only puts one element of her warfare at Qin 6 level while Akou had multiple.

Bruh, she had 1:10 number disadvantage. Why does it even matter? Haidon simply combined his insane number advantage with his special defense to stall. Besides, her main goal was to stop Haidon from making a pincer and she succeeded at that.

It’s pretty relevant when her best feat as a general is double teaming a completely mid opponent alongside Shin.

Just a further point that most of those elite Ousen tactics aren't really that great.

Quibble about Ousen’s tactics all you want, the fact remains that 6GG level tactics completely and utterly shit on the standard tactics used by standard generals. We saw at Shukai when Ousen forced Riboku to convert to standard tactics after dissecting his origin tactic. Ousen then proceeded to effortlessly eat standard level general tactics alive easily. I shouldn’t really have to explain how far above standard general level tactics 6GG level tactics are. They aren’t even remotely close.

Being able to use the basics of tactics that a Q6 guy uses, does not actually mean Q6 tactics.

The fuck lmfao?

So in context, you read this quote of Gunei being able to use the tactics of Ousen himself and concluded that these tactics must not be that great. I don’t even know what manga you’re reading to come to that conclusion, reading this scene correctly tells you that Gunei as a tactician would spank Haidon silly.

You would be able to find guys that have the potential to use varying levels.

“Potential” is a meaningless word, Haidon might have the potential to learn Qin 6 level tactics, but that doesn’t mean he was actually using anything even close to them in the manga, or that the tactics he was using were anywhere close to that level. Rakuakan’s encirclement tactic was probably like a Qin 6 ish level tactic, Haidon absolutely has nothing comparable to this move from Raku or any other Qin 6 adjacent commander.

Gunei got utterly destroyed by someone resembling an elite opponent. For you to pull out some fan fiction that he’s actually close to Akou is…..bizarre.

Considering I never said he was close to Akou, I would agree that this would be a bizarre statement, which is probably why I never said it.

What I said was your hallucination about him being “nowhere close to Akou” was never even remotely implied by the manga, all the manga showed was that Gunei was not quite as good as Akou at Ousen’s tactics.

One of the most random takes I’ve heard for a while, actually.

You didn’t hear or even read this from any of my posts. This was something you completely hallucinated along with Gunei being “nowhere close” to Akou’s level which was never stated or implied in the manga.

As a General, Hara said she performed one of the best feats China had seen in years.

Yet another complete misreading that is starting to make more sense to me considering everything else you’ve hallucinated from this very conversation alone.

Imagine thinking that defeating Haidon is one of the best feats China has seen in years lmfao. When the likes of Ousen, Kanki, Kochou, and Riboku himself all faced defeats in the last few years lmfao. Kyoukai defeating Haidon isn’t even top 2 feats in the battle of Han alone lmfao.

You need to get with the times and understand where we are at with this manga. The new gen are almost the normal gen.

Shin, Ouhon, and Mouten being compared to Akou is much more fair, although Shin getting bodied by Jobkuomi repeatedly in training was pretty disgraceful, at least Shin performs better in actual battle. Kyoukai has no business being compared to the Qin M3. She is completely broken in dismounted 1v1s, but as a General she might be able to push Ryuukoku to extreme diff.

 

[Cichy]

What Akou has shown isn’t relevant to the fact that we know Akou can use multiple 6GG level tactics to perfection.

No. Akou has one formation that could be considered 6GG level. This is all he shown. You assume that all formations that are used by Ousen have to be top tier simply, because they are used by Ousen. This is not how it works.

Which is something that only Heavenly King level commanders can hope to compare to. Kyoukai having one explosive charge doesn’t even remotely compare to that hype.

If we go out on a completely baseless limb and call Kyoukai’s charges 6GG level, that only puts one element of her warfare at Qin 6 level while Akou had multiple.

Kyoukai is superior to Akou in strategy and planing. Based on feats.
Kyoukai is superior to Akou in dueling ability. Also based on feats.
She was actually compared to a member of 6GG by a veteran of old battlefields.
And now according to narrator of the manga she has top tier charging power.

Trying to put Kyoukai below Heavenly Kings level after Hara was trying to hammer time and time again she's a exceptional prodigy is retarded.

It’s pretty relevant when her best feat as a general is double teaming a completely mid opponent alongside Shin.

I already gave you multiple feats from her that are more impressive then that. Puting up a great fight against Houken, countering Genpou's sound strategy, Nanyou plan.

Quibble about Ousen’s tactics all you want, the fact remains that 6GG level tactics completely and utterly shit on the standard tactics used by standard generals. We saw at Shukai when Ousen forced Riboku to convert to standard tactics after dissecting his origin tactic. Ousen then proceeded to effortlessly eat standard level general tactics alive easily. I shouldn’t really have to explain how far above standard general level tactics 6GG level tactics are. They aren’t even remotely close.

Ok and? You assume that since Akou is able to use Ousen's formations then that also means he has the same understanding or view of the battlefield? There's no reason to believe Akou would be able to see through origins, just because he can copy Ousen's field tactics.

Brief reminder that in Hango Akou fell for a bait that Ousen was able to immidiately recognize as something you shouldn't chase which spiraled into a complete disaster.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

No. Akou has one formation that could be considered 6GG level. This is all he shown.

It doesn’t matter, it was stated that he knew multiple. So we know he can in fact use multiple. Why even argue against this point? lol

You assume that all formations that are used by Ousen have to be top tier simply, because they are used by Ousen. This is not how it works.

Ummmm that’s exactly how it works. This sentence is so wrong that it makes me question if you’ve even read the manga. Any tactic created by an intellectual 6GG is going to be a top tier tactic.

Kyoukai is superior to Akou in strategy and planing. Based on feats.

Okay? Sosui is a better military mind than Houken. Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

Kyoukai is superior to Akou in dueling ability. Also based on feats.

Only when she’s dismounted. Mounted she is basically Akakin level, Akou would body her in mounted combat.

She was actually compared to a member of 6GG by a veteran of old battlefields.

Oh so now hype statements are relevant all the sudden? Lol

Akou being stated to be able to use multiple Ousen tactics? That’s not relevant, but Kyoukai being said to be Qin6 level? This hype statement matters because it suits your personal agenda.

Trying to put Kyoukai below Heavenly Kings level after Hara was trying to hammer time and time again she's a prodigy is retarded.

And yet her own captain Shin is getting horribly bodied by Rokuomi in training and her best feat as a general is defeating Haidon.

Your whole argument is based upon glimpsing individual moments of her potential (Genpou at Sanyou, the locusts, etc) and then using individual moments of her potential shining through to wank her far, far above her actual level. Your argument is the equivalent of arguing that Sanyou Shin is Renpa level because he blocked two blows from Renpa. Completely incoherent interpretation of Kyoukai and her actual level as a general.

I already gave you multiple feats from her that are more impressive then that. Puting up a great fight against Houken, countering Genpou's sound strategy, Nanyou plan.

None of these moments speak to her ability to actually achieve victory in an actual battle, which is what the topic of this thread is addressing.

Your argument is like arguing that Sanyou Shin is a better general than Kochou because he blocked two blows from Renpa. Or like arguing that Choyou Ouhon is a superior strategist than Genpou because Ouhon demonstrated brilliance in one specific instance.

The funniest part is you acknowledge that Kyoukai perceiving the locust strategy while Mouten could not doesn’t mean that Kyoukai was above Mouten as a commander. But then you turn around and use the locust strategy as a point to why she is above Akou???? lol

Ok and? You assume that since Akou is able to use Ousen's formations then that also means he has the same understanding or view of the battlefield?

I never said anything even remotely resembling this. What I did say is that Akou’s mastery over multiple Qin 6 level tactics in addition to his overall martial abilities and experience puts him solidly above someone who’s best feat as a general is beating Haidon with Shin’s help.

Kyoukai having the most explosive charge in recent years really doesn’t mean much.

How does an explosive charge compared to say, am instinctual offense of someone like Gyou’Un who breaks his enemies with instincts rather than explosive morale? Answer: it doesn’t.

How does an explosive charge compare to the charges of someone like Akou, who’s armies don’t charge explosively but through the consistent momentum of trampling each other to death and maintaining offense even when Akou himself changes attention? It doesn’t.

Kyoukai’s explosive charge was great hype for her as a general, but without a more definitive feat of her army at least being able to do something like solo’ing a completely mid general, it’s a pretty meaningless and unquantifiable feat. Something to note about her charge is that Haidon had effectively managed to completely stop Kyoukai’s charge, it was only by the combined efforts of Shin allowing Kyoukai’s men to rest while he charged himself, and then Kyoukai’s own men being able to resume their charge thanks to Shin that Haidon was beaten. So the explosiveness of Kyoukai’s charge literally amounted to absolutely nothing quantifiable or even moderately impressive.

For reference, somebody like Gyou’Un had himself defeated several generals and great generals of other states. This is who you think Kyoukai deserves to be compared to when Haidon may have stalled her out alone without Shin’s help. Or does Gyou’Un’s hype statement not apply now as well?

Nah, Kyoukai being heavenly king level as a commander is a complete joke. Again in terms of her individual attributes, sure. As a dismounted dualist she is just complete bullshit, she has rare moments of GG level insight. But that shit doesn’t make her Heavenly King level.

 

[BanditKanki]

The fuck lmfao?

So in context, you read this quote of Gunei being able to use the tactics of Ousen himself and concluded that these tactics must not be that great. I don’t even know what manga you’re reading to come to that conclusion, reading this scene correctly tells you that Gunei as a tactician would spank Haidon silly.

He literally says in this quote that he can not use it to the level of Akou. Ousen will have hundreds of tactics and formations of all different forms, complexity and difficulty. Gunei can’t use the tactics passed down to him, to the level required of a q6. Being able to do shitty, lesser versions is not the same.

Your hype of him is bizarre. I’m sure En can do a few of Ten’s tactics as well.

Hara actually gave Haidon more hype than he gave Gunei, FYI. Gunei got squashed by a routine charge whilst Haidon got defeated by a combined attack from almost-qin 6 Shin and a Kyoukai who was said to have produced a top tier charge with a morale boosted group of soldiers. Why are you arguing with what Hara really tried to tell the reader?

“Potential” is a meaningless word, Haidon might have the potential to learn Qin 6 level tactics, but that doesn’t mean he was actually using anything even close to them in the manga, or that the tactics he was using were anywhere close to that level. Rakuakan’s encirclement tactic was probably like a Qin 6 ish level tactic, Haidon absolutely has nothing comparable to this move from Raku or any other Qin 6 adjacent commander.

Fortunately for me, Gunei counters your argument by saying he can not replicate Qin 6 level attributes. Akou was better.

Considering I never said he was close to Akou, I would agree that this would be a bizarre statement, which is probably why I never said it.

What I said was your hallucination about him being “nowhere close to Akou” was never even remotely implied by the manga, all the manga showed was that Gunei was not quite as good as Akou at Ousen’s tactics.

You said ‘not quite Akou level’ which infers they are close. There is no not quite as good. Gunei is an ant compared to Akou, never mind Ousen.

You didn’t hear or even read this from any of my posts. This was something you completely hallucinated along with Gunei being “nowhere close” to Akou’s level which was never stated or implied in the manga.

It shouldn’t need to be explained to us as if we were stupid. It’s fairly obvious. You’re the only person I’ve ever seen have this bizarre take lol

Yet another complete misreading that is starting to make more sense to me considering everything else you’ve hallucinated from this very conversation alone.

Imagine thinking that defeating Haidon is one of the best feats China has seen in years lmfao. When the likes of Ousen, Kanki, Kochou, and Riboku himself all faced defeats in the last few years lmfao. Kyoukai defeating Haidon isn’t even top 2 feats in the battle of Han alone lmfao.

I didn’t say beating Haidon is one of the best feats, I said the offense was one of the best offensive performances in china over the last few years. Hara told you that, don’t argue with the narrator. And still, despite that, it took a third wave from the HSU to get it done. Haidon is very, very good defensively. In actual fact, he is more then that, as per Hara’s description.

Shin, Ouhon, and Mouten being compared to Akou is much more fair, although Shin getting bodied by Jobkuomi repeatedly in training was pretty disgraceful, at least Shin performs better in actual battle. Kyoukai has no business being compared to the Qin M3. She is completely broken in dismounted 1v1s, but as a General she might be able to push Ryuukoku to extreme diff.

Dude if you think Akou compares to the new gen now, you are about 5 years behind the rest of us. Get with the times, understand the situation.

In this very arc you have seen ALL the new gen show exceptional skill sets. As a General in the field she literally just outshone Tou on day 2 FFS. Forget your horrendous comparison with Ryuukoku.

And no, I’m not saying Kyoukai is Tou level yet. She’s an incredible General. She is - at absolute worse - HK level, which is also where Akou sits. She’s arguably levels above even that now.

You’re living in 2017.

 

[Cichy]

Ummmm that’s exactly how it works. This sentence is so wrong that it makes me question if you’ve even read the manga. Any tactic created by an intellectual 6GG is going to be a top tier tactic.

Ousen obviously didn't create all his formations. He learned most of them from others same as Mouten, Ouhon etc.

Ousen can use a basic line formation. Does this mean that the line formation is 6GG-level, because an intellectual member of 6GG is using it? Now do you see why your arguement doesn't make sense?

Hell, even something more advanced like Red Crane Formation was most likely learned by him, not created, since Ousen and Riboku were both using the same field tactic with slightly different variations.

Okay? Sosui is a better military mind than Houken. Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

I'm glad that we agree that Kyoukai is superior to Akou in strategy and planing which is a crucial part of battles.

Only when she’s dismounted. Mounted she is basically Akakin level, Akou would body her in mounted combat.

Akakin level my ass.

The speed and precision of her bladework doesn't change just because she's fighting on horseback. She only looses her range of movements. We've seen her cut people into pieces while riding her horse. She's no different in this regard then swordsmen such as Yotanwa or Tou. On horse she's not as effective as on the ground, but she's still a powerhouse.

But even if we assume that fighting on horseback is a huge nerf for her then she still has an option of dismounting her opponent or killing the horse to bring the fight to the ground.

Oh so now hype statements are relevant all the sudden? Lol

Akou being stated to be able to use multiple Ousen tactics? That’s not relevant, but Kyoukai being said to be Qin6 level? This hype statement matters because it suits your personal agenda.

I never denied that Akou learned multiple formations from Ousen, wtf you're talking about?

Yes, hype statements do matter. Do you accept that Kyoukai is 6GG-level talent or not?

And yet her own captain Shin is getting horribly bodied by Rokuomi in training

Ok and? Is your arguement that Shin is also inferior to Akou, because I don't get whats the reason for bringing this up.

Your whole argument is based upon glimpsing individual moments of her potential (Genpou at Sanyou, the locusts, etc) and then using individual moments of her potential shining through to wank her far, far above her actual level. Your argument is the equivalent of arguing that Sanyou Shin is Renpa level because he blocked two blows from Renpa. Completely incoherent interpretation of Kyoukai and her actual level as a general.

None of these moments speak to her ability to actually achieve victory in an actual battle, which is what the topic of this thread is addressing.

Her countering tactics of the likes of Genpou and Gyou'un is an actual battlefield achievement. Cry about it.

The funniest part is you acknowledge that Kyoukai perceiving the locust strategy while Mouten could not doesn’t mean that Kyoukai was above Mouten as a commander. But then you turn around and use the locust strategy as a point to why she is above Akou???? lol

The difference is that Mouten has other feats when he demonstrated strategical brilliance and GG-level view of the battlefield. Akou doesn't have that. Which is why you constantly repeat the shit about him knowing Ousen's formations. Because you know he doesn't have much else and he can make stupid mistakes like that one time in Hango when he took the bait and screwed over the entire battlefield. Something that was even aknowledged by Ousen to be wrong move.

For reference, somebody like Gyou’Un had himself defeated several generals and great generals of other states.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Being able to do shitty, lesser versions is not the same.

And see here’s more of you just making up shit that was never said. Lol

Your hype of him is bizarre. I’m sure En can do a few of Ten’s tactics as well.

…Karyo Ten was personally trained by Shouheikun, En is some village bum with zero formal training in warfare.

Thinking some random village bum can perform formal Shouheikun trained strategies is absolutely retarded.

Hara actually gave Haidon more hype than he gave Gunei, FYI.

Hara gave Haidon far more hype than the version of Gunei that you completely hallucinated, I will give you that. Lmfao

Gunei got squashed by a routine charge

The “routine charge”:

It’s like everything you say is literally the exact opposite of reality. Gunei’s plots of trickery and deception that he learned in 45 years as a tactician combined with his combination of lite-Ousen tactics were crushed by Gyou’Un’s unique offensive instincts and inhuman might.

Fortunately for me, Gunei counters your argument by saying he can not replicate Qin 6 level attributes.

He LITERALLY says the exact fucking opposite.

I’m done with you.

Ousen can use a basic line formation. Does this mean that the line formation is 6GG-level, because an intellectual member of 6GG is using it? Now do you see why your arguement doesn't make sense?

The lengths you will go to gaslight yourself into believing that this is what was meant when it was said that Akou could replicate Ousen’s tactics lmfao. I mean how on earth did you read that statement and conclude that “Ousen’s tactics” probably meant just like some basic fucking line formation? Why even hype Akou as being able to use Ousen’s tactics if fucking Bob from the front lines also knows how to use them as they are just basic tactics? Lmfao

I'm glad that we agree that Kyoukai is superior to Akou in strategy and planing which is a crucial part of battles.

Sure, and Akou is superior to Kyoukai in mounted combat, actual military formations, and experience. By like, a massive degree.

The speed and precision of her bladework doesn't change just because she's fighting on horseback. She only looses her range of movements. We've seen her cut people into pieces while riding her horse. She's no different in this regard then swordsmen such as Yotanwa or Tou.

She’s been knocked off of her horse by fodder. “Tou level” my fucking ass hole. Tou would cut her head off in 30 seconds on horseback.

I never denied that Akou learned multiple formations from Ousen, wtf you're talking about?

You did actually:

No. Akou has one formation that could be considered 6GG level. This is all he shown.

Anyway,

Yes, hype statements do matter. Do you accept that Kyoukai is 6GG-level talent or not?

Sure, in specific categories like dismounted martial prowess. Just like Akou is in specific categories like mounted martial prowess, formations, resilience, etc.

Ok and? Is your arguement that Shin is also inferior to Akou, because I don't get whats the reason for bringing this up.

In a lot of ways yes. Shin has far more could feats as a general that put him solidly in the Heavenly King range such as defeating Chou Garyuu that are much more definitive, but his inexperience is still a factor that can limit him into getting bodied by Rokuomi for example.

Her countering tactics of the likes of Genpou and Gyou'un is an actual battlefield achievement. Cry about it.

Just like Shin blocking two blows from Renpa is a battlefield achievement, right? I mean seriously why not argue that Kyoukai is Ousen level because she dissected his locust strategy? How can you not make that argument by your own logic?

The difference is that Mouten has other feats when he demonstrated strategical brilliance and GG-level view of the battlefield. Akou doesn't have that.

I feel like you are solely obsessed with Akou’s strategic planning while disregarding everything else Akou had that made him a fucking nutcase as a general. Bananji/Gyou’Un tier martial prowess, possessed 6GG level tactics, decades of high level experience, some of the best resilience in the series, but you’re ignoring all of that to hyper fixate on like, the one area where Kyoukai has looked better than him. Lol

I mean seriously why not argue Sosui > Houken? Houken’s strategic planning is nothing compared to Sosui.

Which is why you constantly repeat the shit about him knowing Ousen's formations. Because you know he doesn't have much else and he can make stupid mistakes like that one time in Hango when he took the bait and screwed over the entire battlefield. Something that was even aknowledged by Ousen to be wrong move.

Ousen actually was over here saying that Riboku fucked up lol, Ousen had complete faith in Akou to take Riboku’s head. Ouhon said the same shit.

Anyway like I said Akou is miles superior to Kyoukai in every regard bar strategic planning and dismounted combat like I said.

 

[Elmahdi]

Unless you give Akou some huge numerical advantage,Kyou kai is clearly the winner.

Narratively speaking,Kyou Kai is an extension of The Trio,Whatever level The Trio are currently At,Kyoukai shouldn't be far behind and The Trio are done with the likes of Akou since Shukai Plains.
It would be like comparing a post chimera ant Killua to your average spider.

Akou's main strengh is his resilience,thats all,He doesn't break up no matter how dire the situation is,thats all,His Martial Might is around Bananji level which is pretty strong,but nothing game changer,he had a decent amount of tactics(being able to replicate some of his Master's tactics like how nearly every right hand(sometime left hands too ) can,but he proved himself to be able to do some huge blunders,and his solution to problem is usually beating your opponent in combat(and it is clear that he isn't defeating Kyou kai).

Replicating some of Ou Sen's tactics isn't that much of a big deal,and he isn't Ou Sen:

1-5000 man commander Shin already break throught a defense worthy of Zhao three great heavens using nothing but brute force,not to mention how tactics fail nearly everytime it face some kind of OP charge.

2-Akou doesn't even have Chou Ga Ryuu potrayel(who a 5000 man commander shin brute forced his way throught his defenses that are worthy of a zhao great heaven )of mixing between tactics/martial might,no matter how what tactics Akou use,he is still a fighter above all else who solve things using his might.

3-I wouldn't be suprised if Kyou kai just straigh up understand/solve/adapt to whatever Tactic Akou use,3000 man commander Ou Hon surpassed Gou Hou Mei's defenses,and if she can't,brute force is always there.

 

[BanditKanki]

I don’t even know where to start with some of your takes @Elder Lee Hung so I’m gonna drop it. You even said Kyoukai is Akakin level on a horse.

I…..can’t…