General & Others The (non-existing) stakes in One Piece

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Are they really?

Can you tell me in which way Elbaph is similar to whole cake ?
How Wano is similar to Egghead ?
How Marineford is similar to sabaody?
How Water Seven is similar to Punk Hazard?
Etc.

The idea that there are recurring elements is true:
- New allies each island
- New thematics each island
- A separation
- People in distress
- An antagonist
- An impending doom, usually with a countdown
- A new hope with Luffy and a defeat leading to a liberation

All of this is true.. but all of this is also the usual structure of any shonen, not only that but it is also the logical result of a story of discovering, adventure and pirates...

You could of course create stories differently and One Piece actually does that very well, but One Piece requires a constant novelty and discovering but also a constant stream of the liberation thematic. SO each ones of this elements are fundamental bricks that requires a presence each arc. But they are not the structure, they are simple bricks. The structure of stories in One Piece varies greatly.

The skill of Oda, like any amazing artist, is to make you believe that his story is simple. The target audience of One Piece are young men between 12 and 17. Oda NEEDS this simplicity to appeal to his audience and make it understand the full scope of his story which he is delivering EXACTLY as he needs to on surface.

And on surface, One Piece indeed appear repetitive to the acid eye, but there is a real reason why the entire booktok and million of people taken over the story: One Piece is an iceberg of meaning and structure.

People often quote pre-timeskip to show the quality of the serie, but pre-timeskip is the where the structure is the most alike. Oda has been experimenting - literally - each arcs starting at Fishmen Island.

- Fishman Island is not so much of a struggle it's the depiction of the absolute superiority of the straw-hats, a reflexion of racism and destruction. It's a walk in the park, quite literally.

- Punk Hazard is surviving thriller.

- Dressrosa is a gladiator and survival game.

- Whole Cake is a bittersweet heist and escape musical.

- Zou is not even a conflictual arc, but a mystery story about the aftermath of a preceding event leading to incredible mythical revelations.

- Wano is an epic Samourai kabuki tale leading to a massive war mixed, for the first time, by outside worldbuilding events.

- Egghead is a Sci Fi siege and asset protection mission gone completely apocalyptic.

- And Elbaph? Well Elbaph is kind of the weirdest one thus far. The entire arc is like a big party gone wrong because of unintended guests. But you could say that it is a political debate about protectionnism and thus far, it has been very chaotic and do not ressemble any kind of arc we have been seeing.

How is Punk Hazard's poison cloud any different from the sun rising and erasing the crew in Thriller Bark, Ace's imminent execution in Marineford, the Buster Call in Enies Lobby, or the bomb in Alabasta?
Same for Dressrosa.
Wano and Elbaf aren't even that unique. Dressrosa for example also has outside worldbuilding affecting the characters in Dressrosa, and outside antagonists show up to Dressrosa as well (Burgess and Issho). Not to mention all the plot holes and unresolved plot lines in Wano (what happened to those Samurai Zoro claimed he'd gather?).
Egghead is really embarrassing. The Seraphim were useless and had the most lazy fights with an even lazier ending to them, Kizaru's arc was stupid since we're meant to sympathize for him even though he's been an obedient servant to the CDs for decades (don't give me that "he feels like he has no choice" crap, because Garp, Smoker and Issho all prove that wrong) and there's no reason to care about someone losing their family when they don't care about thousands of other people losing their families, and there was 0 tension whatsoever even when ALL FIVE GOROSEI APPEARED TO KILL THE STRAW HATS AND STOP THE BROADCAST!!

- Fishman Island is not so much of a struggle it's the depiction of the absolute superiority of the straw-hats, a reflexion of racism and destruction. It's a walk in the park, quite literally.

Also, how good is this analysis of racism really? Even besides the fact that Fishmen shouldn't be compared to people like Africans, Asians, Mexicans, etc., the message of the arc is incredibly shallow and ironically sort of racist itself. At one point Oda seriously has a character stop a fishman from killing a Celestial Dragon, because "killing them would make us just like them, and it wouldn't put the right message into the heart of the children!". Do you realize how out of touch you have to be to think this is a good analogy? Keep in mind, this isn't just any ordinary human being, this is a CELESTIAL DRAGON. People who are known for enslaving people, raping them, killing them, and so on. They're meant to be a parallel to cold hearted rich people who are deeply prejudiced against basically every group that isn't theirs. So when you have a character that is a fishman say that it's wrong to kill a Celestial Dragon, it's essentially like having a black person say it's wrong to kill a KKK member. The message doesn't work if they're saying this about someone who is clearly evil and supports murdering and enslaving Fishmen.
"B-But Otohime was right! He DID change his ways! They WERE right to spare him!" They wouldn't know this in the moment. They can't read minds, and they can't see the future. For all Otohime knows, he could've went back to the surface and decided to start kidnapping Fishmen en masse. In fact, this is something we see happen multiple times in the story with other villains! Most villains that get spared are still villains after the fact, people like Crocodile and Lucci didn't change after Luffy beat their ass, they stayed the same despite being proven wrong and despite being humiliated by him. There was no reason to believe that they shouldn't kill Mjosgard- In fact, it only shows the people of Fishman Island that, in Otohime's eyes, resisting against your oppressor and punishing them for their actions is bad. It shows them that you have to be complacent in your misery and not hold a grudge even when you clearly should. It's a horrible message, because again, it's just like writing a scene where a black person stops someone from killing a KKK member. Oda approaches very complex and delicate topics like a child would, he sees racism and goes "That's weird. Why do racists act like that? I bet if they saw a GOOD [insert whatever race] person, they'd change!". No different from certain gay people who claim that they're "not like those other obnoxious queers" or black people who claim they're "not like those other savage monkeys", thinking they'll be spared by bigots or change their mind. In reality, the vast majority of bigots will not change if they see a few good people in the group(s) that they hate. They know very well that there are a lot of black people who aren't in gangs, a lot of trans people who don't molest children, lot of lesbians that don't abuse their partners, so on and so forth. They know this, and they don't care, because this ideology is baked into their mind far too deep for anything to change it. Any good woman, black person, queer person, etc. is seen as "just putting on a performance", or at best they're "just one of the good ones". That is why it's asinine for Oda to pretend that it's this easy to change someone who's been in an echo chamber of hatred and degeneracy their entire life.

 

[Logiko]

How is Punk Hazard's poison cloud any different from the sun rising and erasing the crew in Thriller Bark, Ace's imminent execution in Marineford, the Buster Call in Enies Lobby, or the bomb in Alabasta?

The fact that you managed to give 5 creative ticking bombs variants is precisely the reason why this is good. This is creativity, this is diversity.

Ticking bombs are something most stories use. The point of good storytelling is not to avoid using them too much, they are inherent to the structure of a story, as long as there is a threat, there is a ticking bomb. The point is to use them creatively through the constrain of the plot.

Oda makes them clear in order for everyone to understand the stakes easily and REMEMBER them. You do not know how many things people will forget while reading a story. Threats need to be sharp and they need to be obvious, at least around the end of the story.

On top of that, each ticking bomb, in One Piece, have a thematic and characterization relevancy. They are not just "bombs", they are the extention of the will of the antagonism and their threat.

Wano and Elbaf aren't even that unique.

They are. In everypoint.

Dressrosa for example also has outside worldbuilding affecting the characters in Dressrosa, and outside antagonists show up to Dressrosa as well (Burgess and Issho).

Contain within the storyline of the arc.

Wano is different, the worldbuilding expand beyond the realm of the story.

Not to mention all the plot holes and unresolved plot lines in Wano (what happened to those Samurai Zoro claimed he'd gather?)

See.. this is what I mean when I talk about illegitimate expectations.

The story never promised you that Zoro would gather Samurai. Zoro simply said that to Luffy as a form of good buy, in the wind. The point of the sentence was not to understand "I will be amazing and gather Samurai" but "You can rest easy, I will take care of things while you are gone".

People assume that because character say stuff, therefore the story should advance the same way. This is a very bad way to read stories. It's sadly something promoted by shonen in general as they often have this rigid storytelling way of approaching character writing. But Oda knows better. He knows that Character are human, that people can say X while thinking Y, that they can be completely stupid while saying serious stuff, that they can be serious while saying stupid stuff, that they can be wrong or be proven wrong, that they can say stuff just for the fun of it, just to reassure or just when they are mad... in other word, in One Piece people talk like human beings.

Don't listen at characters to predict the plot, that is the WORST way to theorize, especially when it it thrown out of the blue like that. Only trust what the story needs. In this case, Zoro needed to make sure to reassure Luffy.

There are no unresolved plot in Wano. At best, there are questions still pending (Carrot, Journal, the Dawn, the scrapped page, Pluton, Zunisha etc.), that's all.

Egghead is really embarrassing. The Seraphim were useless and had the most lazy fights with an even lazier ending to them

That's only your point of view. I don't feel that way. Especially since they gave a freaking hard time to the strawhats.

Kizaru's arc was stupid since we're meant to sympathize for him even though he's been an obedient servant to the CDs for decades (don't give me that "he feels like he has no choice" crap

You are not meant to sympathize with him, you are meant to empathize with him. As for the "he feels like he has no choice crap" as you said, this is only crap for you. You do not take into account the amount of brainwashing created by the semi-fascist Marine system. As such you do not understand why it can be destroying for a person to have two conflictual belief system and make such an act.

You can be against the action of Kizaru (I am, I think he made an fatal error of judgment) but his internal conflict is makes perfect sense. This is something people under fascism had to deal with. With some doing the right choices, others doing the wrong ones. Humans are complex. (again, same point as before)

Kizaru suddenly had to face his contradiction and made a choice that he will regret.

Garp, Smoker and Issho all prove that wrong

No they didn't prove anything wrong. They only depicts the fact that there are different vision and different forms of humanity.

I have to say.. For someone who wants diversity in storytelling, you are strangely rigid in the way you see human here....

Characters in One Piece are not proof of concepts, they are reflexions upon different forms of point of view. Again, humanity is complex, it is not because an admiral manages to zeal to escape the barbarism of his system that others will be able to do that. Issho is depicted as a faking gambler. He is always calculated yet always manage to appear using luck and randomness to get his way. Kizaru is completely different, he is lazy, unwilling to question things, he doesn't care.

Admiral have all be faced with their own contradiction. The calm and detached Aokiji had to face authority and challenge it, Issho's cynicism and blindness had to face true justice and goodwill, The raging and rigid Akainu has to face pure chaos and the lazy Kizaru had to face the consequence of his own unwillingness to make an ethical choice.

The same way, Garp the free is forced to play the dog and Smoker is angry is forced to make sense of a troubled world. This is what good storytelling is.

It's the opposite of simplicity.

and there's no reason to care about someone losing their family when they don't care about thousands of other people losing their families

That is only your own morality speaking. Stories are not meant to force you into such rigid moral judgement, they are meant to make you empathize with people despite their bad choices.

When you watch in return of the jedi, do you say "Vador saying thank you to Luke "you already saved me and you were right" (about having good in him) is stupid because it was a fascist who killed million , who cares anyway" ?

If that's the case, then congrats, you stripped from yourself the capacity to empathize with characters in stories based on your own morality. Not a good sign ethically for real life if you want my own advice.. but hey, you do you. This is just not a good critic for this case.

and there was 0 tension whatsoever even when ALL FIVE GOROSEI APPEARED TO KILL THE STRAW HATS AND STOP THE BROADCAST!!

I don't agree, I was on edge the entire time. Again, this is a moral judgement speaking, not the reality of the story. The story is clearly tensed around Egghead despite Luffy's shenanigans. (In fact Luffy's shenanigan participated in the tension for me as I was afraid he was playing too much around for the good of the crew)

how good is this analysis of racism really?

Basic, this is an idealist version of antiracism. You could say that it stands between what liberals think and what materialists thinks, it's not awfull, but it's not amazing either.

Even besides the fact that Fishmen shouldn't be compared to people like Africans, Asians, Mexicans, etc.

They are representing an systematically oppressed race along side others, it's not specifically africans or asian, it's racialized people as a whole. The allegory is completely relevant, especially in the fact that Oda doesn't end up falling into the usual trap of modern authors as in eurocentrism and universalism when they rigidify and simplify the treats of racialized people, fishmen are the representation of alterity as in diverses form of vision of the world, thinking, being, and acting.

They are not a joke, they are a people, diverse and living. As such, they are a perfect representation of the struggles of racialization.

If you want to talk about that further we will go in the political thread.

the message of the arc is incredibly shallow and ironically sort of racist itself

Absolutely not. That is slop and liberal analysis at best.

At one point Oda seriously has a character stop a fishman from killing a Celestial Dragon, because "killing them would make us just like them, and it wouldn't put the right message into the heart of the children!"

Do you realize how out of touch you have to be to think this is a good analogy?

Yes. I know.

This is the liberal vision of antiracism and the thing you should indeed question. Something I already tried to show you if you remember when you criticize black people who were going too far and when you laughed at me when I said that it was impossible for black people to be racists against white people.

This is universalism and idealism. A vision of antiracism that doesn't look at the power relationship but at two similar violences as equal, even when they are coming from different position olf the hierarchy of domination. Racism is a domination system, as such, the character is wrong, it wouldn't make them like celestial dragons to kill one. But it would endanger their people for sure.

Again, I will discuss about that further in the political section, not here. But I'm glad you are bringing that up since it is one of my biggest critic with the political vision of Oda. (it doesn't strip away the quality of the arc tho, it's just shaky on political ground, I don't mind liberalism and idealism too much when the message try to be materialist, especially when almost no other shonen deal with such subject).

Keep in mind, this isn't just any ordinary human being, this is a CELESTIAL DRAGON. People who are known for enslaving people, raping them, killing them, and so on.

Yup I agree. That is why comparing the violence of white people who dominate and black people who resist is stupid.

I'm really glad you brought that up.

They're meant to be a parallel to cold hearted rich people who are deeply prejudiced against basically every group that isn't theirs.

Yes, white people indeed.

So when you have a character that is a fishman say that it's wrong to kill a Celestial Dragon, it's essentially like having a black person say it's wrong to kill a KKK member.

More like a black person saying it's bad to attack a racist. You have to remember that celestial dragon are as clueless as any white people who lived during the regime of slavery, they are oppressive, yes, but they are also the product of their own material conditions. White Charlos and mjosgard are not bad because they are evil or a celestial dragon, they are bad because they were EDUCATED this way and he can't act otherwise.

What can happen on the other hand, is for a person under subjugation to find the courage to show empathy toward a racist enemy (which Otohime did), such empathy can reverberate through education and self-questionning. Not because of the kindness itself, but because said kindness break the belief system that racialized people are not human. As such, it broke mjosgard racist defense and made him think beyond.

Education through empathy is something that truly happens in real life. But it is RARE indeed. The point Oda made in Fishmen island is that said empathy, kindness and exemplary standing is the answer for people under racialization to find salvation and peace. Which is a fine sentiment, which is the only current sentiment in pop culture to be honest, but an idealist one as I tried to demonstrate with you guyz in the political thread many times on real life subject..

It is an idealized version of antiracism, something that doesn't take into consideration the material reality of racialization. Which means that if Oda were to continue in a more materialist way his story, he would have no choice but to demonstrate that peace and trying to be "peacefull" is not the way to go for fishmen to be safe, rather the solution should be an active conflict. Which he almost did, but the world governement is currently too strong for that.

It's a horrible message

And yet, this is precisely what we can hear from people under the sword of whitesupremacy today "be examplary" "show no remorse" "be kind" "be empathetic" "be silent" "don't be like the picture they are trying to depict you into". In reality, Fishmen island could become a great arc politically in retrospect if Oda demonstrated that his previous reflexion was fallacious through a change of behavior from this people.

This is also why there is something called "magneto is right". Magneto understands that protecting mutants under racialization means facing humanity head on. But since the wreiters are liberals, what you get are people who go too far. Which is the problem of Hody.

because again, it's just like writing a scene where a black person stops someone from killing a KKK member.

What you do not see is that Celestial dragons are not KKK members. They are the people ruled by the KKK members. They are racist and supremacist, but they are the product of racist and supremacist material conditions.

They are far closer to the average racists white people today than KKK members who had a plan and a conscientization of their ideology.

As such, the analogy is wrong, hitting a celestial dragon is not like hitting a KK member, but rather it is like hitting the racist and supremacist white grand pa or uncle who say horrible stuff to racialized people when they see them on TV or in the streets. It's the banality of evil that is important here.

It's a system.

he sees racism and goes "That's weird. Why do racists act like that?

No. He sees racism like a liberal. And a rather materialist ones at that as there is a bigger systemic underestanding in his thinking that the average author on the question

I bet if they saw a GOOD [insert whatever race] person, they'd change

I'm so glad you talked about that lmao.

or black people who claim they're "not like those other savage monkeys", thinking they'll be spared by bigots or change their mind.

They know very well that there are a lot of black people who aren't in gangs, a lot of trans people who don't molest children, lot of lesbians that don't abuse their partners, so on and so forth. They know this, and they don't care,

They know this, and they don't care, because this ideology is baked into their mind far too deep for anything to change it.

That is why it's asinine for Oda to pretend that it's this easy to change someone who's been in an echo chamber of hatred and degeneracy their entire life.

Not Oda specifically. Oda is actually quite progressive compared to most of modern authors on the subject of racism.

But that is only because most of modern authors are liberals



Welcome to the world of Materialism mate and the realm of the REAL critics of One Piece. Take a seat. You will see, this is a wild ride.

 

[Konstantis]

 

[NikaInParis]

@Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier : makes a point and gives arguments
@Illogiko: "No it isn't" refuses to actually elaborate on it despite the wall of text*

 

[Donquixote Shivercalero]

In nardo at least
Shikamarus teacher
Itachi
Jiraya
Naruto parents
Third hokage
Grandma that helped sakura

Flashback deaths don’t count and Yasuie in Wano’s death was more emotionally moving than granny chiyo

 

[Logiko]

@Illogiko: "No it isn't" refuses to actually elaborate on it despite the wall of text*

There is nothing to reply to "this is shit", at best all I can say is "no it isn't".