General & Others What Arc Has Hurt One Piece The Most?
- Thread starter pg13
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No. I'm not saying that you are conservative. I'm saying that hatred fandom based hatred (I like this word better) is a phenomenon that systematically breeds conservatism.
Not much, but enough so that years after years, the fandom radicalizes either toward political conservatism or a form of fanbase form of hatred cocoon. Usually the first and usually its spreads to other media and subjects.
The reason why it's 50/50 right now, is because this hatred is still marginal and because the story is deeply associated with progressive stuff. But the seeds are there.
No. I'm not saying that you are conservative. I'm saying that hatred fandom based hatred (I like this word better) is a phenomenon that systematically breeds conservatism.
Not much, but enough so that years after years, the fandom radicalizes either toward political conservatism or a form of fanbase form of hatred cocoon. Usually the first and usually its spreads to other media and subjects.
The reason why it's 50/50 right now, is because this hatred is still marginal and because the story is deeply associated with progressive stuff. But the seeds are there.
When you bases your premisse or mindset with the idea that an arc has hurt One Piece, you only create the conditions for people to find the arc they dislike the most and diss on it.
It's how the hatred and conservatism (in the sense, "I want to keep things the way they were") spreads within a fandom. It happens that said hatred reached such a threadshold in the One Piece fanbase that the movement spreaded almost instantly in a large part of the community where said conservatism had the most seed planted :
- Agendas
- Fandom created narrative stones (either real or not) territories
Agendas : People in fandom are by nature forming parasocial bonds with their favorite characters, which creates the necessity for the personnal agenda of fans to be reached. When the parasocial bond is so strong and the agenda is not reached, a LARGE partof the fanbase associated to said character will mechanically start blaming the author. This is the first form of conservatism that is based on the need to see the example of the desires of our characters. Examples like :
- Luke in the last jedi
- Doctor Who in the new serie
- Zoro in Wano, Big Mom in Whole Cake, Luffy in G5 etc.
Fandom created narrative stones : This are different and the opposite of agendas. They are the narrative outlook on a narrative element that is stoned and freezed in time and canon by the fanbase. This can take two shapes :
> The real "narrative stone" :The author establishes A and the audience understands A
> A fake "narrative stone" : The author establishes A and the audience understands B. While the author freezes A, the audience will freezes B creating a clash between the author and the audience when a contradiction appears:
- In One Piece, for example, this is the idea that Sanji is a warrior and therefore must have a fight in whole cake. When said fight never happened the contradiction between A (Whole cake is centered around the fact that Sanji is more than a warrior) and B (Sanji should have a fight) clashes together and create a division between the author and the audience.
When we talk about legitimate expectations, we talk about this friction which in essence is a conservatism. For the story first, that can spread outward.
To counter this friction there are three ways :
- Either the author follow what they think the fan wants (this is what created the failure that is The Rise of Skywalker)
- Either the author clarify its storytelling, but in said action removes the subtilities and challenging part that makes the works such a great piece of art (this is what Hollywood does with Marvel, something usually bland, unchallenging)
- Either the author makes the bet that their audience is smarter and will seek answer and analyzis if needed and keep the flow of their art going. (this is what Oda does with One Piece)
Narrative based conservatism can therefore become a direct product of fandoms, often when they either do not align with the author or when they do not let the authors challenge their preconceptions. Said conservatism can then expand outward depending on the state of the story, the agent of the creation, the state of the fandom, the political and social context, etc.
What I'm doing here, is try to push people to let themselves be challenged in order to prevent this conservatism to expand and:
It's how the hatred and conservatism (in the sense, "I want to keep things the way they were") spreads within a fandom. It happens that said hatred reached such a threadshold in the One Piece fanbase that the movement spreaded almost instantly in a large part of the community where said conservatism had the most seed planted :
- Agendas
- Fandom created narrative stones (either real or not) territories
Agendas : People in fandom are by nature forming parasocial bonds with their favorite characters, which creates the necessity for the personnal agenda of fans to be reached. When the parasocial bond is so strong and the agenda is not reached, a LARGE partof the fanbase associated to said character will mechanically start blaming the author. This is the first form of conservatism that is based on the need to see the example of the desires of our characters. Examples like :
- Luke in the last jedi
- Doctor Who in the new serie
- Zoro in Wano, Big Mom in Whole Cake, Luffy in G5 etc.
Fandom created narrative stones : This are different and the opposite of agendas. They are the narrative outlook on a narrative element that is stoned and freezed in time and canon by the fanbase. This can take two shapes :
> The real "narrative stone" :The author establishes A and the audience understands A
> A fake "narrative stone" : The author establishes A and the audience understands B. While the author freezes A, the audience will freezes B creating a clash between the author and the audience when a contradiction appears:
- In One Piece, for example, this is the idea that Sanji is a warrior and therefore must have a fight in whole cake. When said fight never happened the contradiction between A (Whole cake is centered around the fact that Sanji is more than a warrior) and B (Sanji should have a fight) clashes together and create a division between the author and the audience.
When we talk about legitimate expectations, we talk about this friction which in essence is a conservatism. For the story first, that can spread outward.
To counter this friction there are three ways :
- Either the author follow what they think the fan wants (this is what created the failure that is The Rise of Skywalker)
- Either the author clarify its storytelling, but in said action removes the subtilities and challenging part that makes the works such a great piece of art (this is what Hollywood does with Marvel, something usually bland, unchallenging)
- Either the author makes the bet that their audience is smarter and will seek answer and analyzis if needed and keep the flow of their art going. (this is what Oda does with One Piece)
Narrative based conservatism can therefore become a direct product of fandoms, often when they either do not align with the author or when they do not let the authors challenge their preconceptions. Said conservatism can then expand outward depending on the state of the story, the agent of the creation, the state of the fandom, the political and social context, etc.
What I'm doing here, is try to push people to let themselves be challenged in order to prevent this conservatism to expand and:
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Everything is political. Read what I just explained, you will understand.
I also want to add that that what I just described (the two main seed of conservatism) are what differenciate the fandom reading or watching One Piece weakly and the fandom watching or reading One Piece in bulk. And their resulting differences in appreciations.
In bulk, agendas will form, but the parasocial bond and the expectations will be weakers. The same way, people will tend to be a lot more flexible on the way they see the story or the arcs or the characters action, usually experimenting a much more coherent and concrete version of the story where narrative threads are linked more effectively by the shorter time laps between reading or watching.
Weekly on the other hand, the reading experience will mechanically pushes people to developp stronger parasocial bonds to compensate for the absence of the story and will become much more attentive or expectative regarding the lore, having a lot more time to think about it.
The anime compensate that by the motion experience of the anime media, but a chapter... you better be managing your expectation good or have a qualitative form of reading experience if you want to prevent yourself from developping expectation and conservative ideas about the story.
I also want to add that that what I just described (the two main seed of conservatism) are what differenciate the fandom reading or watching One Piece weakly and the fandom watching or reading One Piece in bulk. And their resulting differences in appreciations.
In bulk, agendas will form, but the parasocial bond and the expectations will be weakers. The same way, people will tend to be a lot more flexible on the way they see the story or the arcs or the characters action, usually experimenting a much more coherent and concrete version of the story where narrative threads are linked more effectively by the shorter time laps between reading or watching.
Weekly on the other hand, the reading experience will mechanically pushes people to developp stronger parasocial bonds to compensate for the absence of the story and will become much more attentive or expectative regarding the lore, having a lot more time to think about it.
The anime compensate that by the motion experience of the anime media, but a chapter... you better be managing your expectation good or have a qualitative form of reading experience if you want to prevent yourself from developping expectation and conservative ideas about the story.
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even if this were true, it doesn't matter because your politics are extremely shallow. they just boil down to "leftists = nice little fairies who spread love and sunshine" and "right wingers = demons who can only ever do bad and say bad things"
i myself am a leftist but i think this is really pathetic of you to act like we can never do any wrong, to the point where you view simply criticizing a manga as an inherently right wing thing to do
i myself am a leftist but i think this is really pathetic of you to act like we can never do any wrong, to the point where you view simply criticizing a manga as an inherently right wing thing to do
Noted, I'll try to deepen them a little bit more.
Well no but, but if you want we talk about that in the political thread we can. My point here is not about left and right but the way we create conservatism, is the most basic sense of the word based on the way we consume stories or , like this thread, the way we analyze it.
We can absolutely do wrong. You are strawmanning something I never said. But again, if you want to talk about that, we can do that elsewhere. My point concerns this very thread and the way it participates (like all the thread like it) in the conservatism regarding the One Piece appreciation.
Again, you are confusing conservatism with rightism. I understand why so let me clarify mt thoughts : I consider two different concept: The "conservatists" that I usually talk about in the political threads, these are indeed the common names of the right part of the right and "Conservatism", which is an affect that is not inherently rightist or leftist. It's something linked to the way we function in order to survive and, in this case, in the way we consume media. Conservatism can lead us to the right but be sparked by everything everywhere.
When we create the condition for our conservatism by spamming threads like these, we create the room for the hatred of the media which by logic will influence the way we consume said media and story.
The way we consume the story > Influences > The way we think about a story > which influences > The way we appreciate said story > which Influences > The way we consume the story.
It's not about political sides, it's about the politicalness of the action of managing our consumption of stories.
Well no but, but if you want we talk about that in the political thread we can. My point here is not about left and right but the way we create conservatism, is the most basic sense of the word based on the way we consume stories or , like this thread, the way we analyze it.
We can absolutely do wrong. You are strawmanning something I never said. But again, if you want to talk about that, we can do that elsewhere. My point concerns this very thread and the way it participates (like all the thread like it) in the conservatism regarding the One Piece appreciation.
Again, you are confusing conservatism with rightism. I understand why so let me clarify mt thoughts : I consider two different concept: The "conservatists" that I usually talk about in the political threads, these are indeed the common names of the right part of the right and "Conservatism", which is an affect that is not inherently rightist or leftist. It's something linked to the way we function in order to survive and, in this case, in the way we consume media. Conservatism can lead us to the right but be sparked by everything everywhere.
When we create the condition for our conservatism by spamming threads like these, we create the room for the hatred of the media which by logic will influence the way we consume said media and story.
The way we consume the story > Influences > The way we think about a story > which influences > The way we appreciate said story > which Influences > The way we consume the story.
It's not about political sides, it's about the politicalness of the action of managing our consumption of stories.
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The Pain Arc really ruined One Piece because it motivated Oda to make peak that was Marineford. Oda lost his mind over the frustration that his kouhai had bigger cajones to kill off said beloved character and this led to his KDS or Kishimoto Derangement Sybdrome, vowing to never let even Kinemon Cry or b hurt
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