General & Others Is Marineford the worst aged arc in Shonen history?
- Thread starter dirtyLarry
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Still today.
But I really have no interest in debating 15-year-old inconsistencies from a completely different time of the manga.
I was merely responding to the notion that Marineford being horrible PL-wise ('now retroactively trying to start etc.') is something new.
Whether you and I agree or not, which is not really what's relevant, the point is that this debate has been around since the very beginning, and everyone who was active back then knows it and talked about that for years.
Still today.
But I really have no interest in debating 15-year-old inconsistencies from a completely different time of the manga.
I was merely responding to the notion that Marineford being horrible PL-wise ('now retroactively trying to start etc.') is something new.
Whether you and I agree or not, which is not really what's relevant, the point is that this debate has been around since the very beginning, and everyone who was active back then knows it and talked about that for years.
I know by experience that most if not all these "inconsistencies" are usually based on a very surface layered and unempathetic reading of the contextualities of the story and its characters (basically, it's the process of discussing about characters outside of their material conditions, outside of any form of context, and as simple entities without any form of mental afflictions or upbrigings, as if they are machines).
And spoilers: Some people were already reading One Piece backward 20 years ago, but these people were stuck on isolated forums, no real social medias to spread that bs. That is the case no more.
If you are not ready to squabble, then don't start. I'm now intervening in these discussions, that I avoided for decades on purpose, and fully ready to reply. If I have to completely shatter a certain conception of powerscaling to bring some literacy back, I'll do just that.
And spoilers: Some people were already reading One Piece backward 20 years ago, but these people were stuck on isolated forums, no real social medias to spread that bs. That is the case no more.
If you are not ready to squabble, then don't start. I'm now intervening in these discussions, that I avoided for decades on purpose, and fully ready to reply. If I have to completely shatter a certain conception of powerscaling to bring some literacy back, I'll do just that.
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Let's not go there. You are entitled to your opinion on PL, as anyone. From what I've read, I'd say the only thing being "shattered" is common sense, replaced by one absurd justification after another. I only say this because you clearly feel the exact same way about "us", as you have already said.
Engaging in this will only lead to a five-page back-and-forth where neither of us convinces the other.
Most importantly, whether we agree or not wasn't the point of my original post, so it's ultimately irrelevant. My point was simply saying that the debate existed. There is no "retroactive" anything. I don't think there was a single active user back then with whom I didn't debate Marineford.
Also, regarding your point on older forums being isolated: not really. That was the golden era of forums, and they easily had 100x the active population they do today. What was discussed on them had a massive, direct impact simply because of how many people were on them and what those people said to their friends etc.
Nowadays, forums still have an impact, but it's far more indirect.
Engaging in this will only lead to a five-page back-and-forth where neither of us convinces the other.
Most importantly, whether we agree or not wasn't the point of my original post, so it's ultimately irrelevant. My point was simply saying that the debate existed. There is no "retroactive" anything. I don't think there was a single active user back then with whom I didn't debate Marineford.
Also, regarding your point on older forums being isolated: not really. That was the golden era of forums, and they easily had 100x the active population they do today. What was discussed on them had a massive, direct impact simply because of how many people were on them and what those people said to their friends etc.
Nowadays, forums still have an impact, but it's far more indirect.
What did you guyz expected ? I see hatred, I see a crisis of media literacy in many fanbase, I see lack of understanding of the story on pretty much all levels, I see that the first is feeding on the other creating even more hatred and conservatism, to the point it affects not only the experience of said audience but the entire fanbase AND its status, I also know what can happen to fanbases that tend to fall into such conservatism.
I've seen this social movement of hatred lose complete control over the years so yes, I will go "there". And there is the side of fandoms that tends to completely dehumanize and desensibilize any forms of readings : powerscaling and aurascaling.
No. I don't think you lost common sense, I think you guyz have confused being a fan of a story and being an storytelling analyst. One requires to be able to enjoy a story and have empathy for the character, the other to have the tools to understand it correctly.
And the problem is that in trying to theorize and powerscale One Piece by aiming at its analysis, this part of the fanbase forgot to be empathetic with the characters and enjoy the damn experience.
It takes time to understand how stories really work, it took me 20 years of learning to feel like I had any idea about the subject and I still feel like I have so much more to learn. The same way, it takes patience, love and care to be able to have the empathy to understand layers of characterization as we can see them in One Piece. One Piece will show you its true color ONLY when you combine the two, which usually happen if you care about things like empathy or when you can binge the entire story which pushes the elements of characterization closer.
The example that I always bring up is Sanji. His characterization in Whole Cake AND Wano that was mostly missunderstood on the spot by fans who focused on theorizing and powerscaling. People like me had to hammer the point about his sensibility (before Oda did that in both arc) to make the rest understand that actually, this was perfectly in character and actually amazing for the story. This type of missunderstanding is so common that MOST form of backlash against the story is a derivative of such process. Vegapunk, Zoro, Big Mom, Oden, Yamato etc.. And you will see people like me each time explain to these boyz here what they are missing, things that are then either confirmed by the story (the fact that Yamato stayed for a good reason for ex), either clarified by Oda to hammer the point (Vegapunk and York for ex), either then demonstrated by influencers on youtube (check MelonTee for more understanding on Zoro and Sanji's characterizations), either still missunderstood because people do not make the work to look deeper than the surface layer (Oden for ex.)
Well then, don't start. I think you guyz know this forum enough to know that if you push an opinion on the narration of the story, there will be a good chance that I will over around.
The retroaction is not about the debate that did happen 20 years ago, it's about the social phenomenon of hatred that spreads today. As hatred is a contageous phenomenon.
They were still isolated from the rest of the internet and exterior population that is more casual. This frontiere was breached by the rise of youtube and other social medias.
It only had an impact on that part of the fanbase that we are talking about. The rest grew beyond that influence, which created a much more positive side.
Exactly, that is precisely my point and what I'm trying to fight. The bridge between this part of the fanbase and the casual one is a lot bigger, meaning that forum can now impact the experience of casual audiences as well and the fanbase as a whole.
I've seen this social movement of hatred lose complete control over the years so yes, I will go "there". And there is the side of fandoms that tends to completely dehumanize and desensibilize any forms of readings : powerscaling and aurascaling.
No. I don't think you lost common sense, I think you guyz have confused being a fan of a story and being an storytelling analyst. One requires to be able to enjoy a story and have empathy for the character, the other to have the tools to understand it correctly.
And the problem is that in trying to theorize and powerscale One Piece by aiming at its analysis, this part of the fanbase forgot to be empathetic with the characters and enjoy the damn experience.
It takes time to understand how stories really work, it took me 20 years of learning to feel like I had any idea about the subject and I still feel like I have so much more to learn. The same way, it takes patience, love and care to be able to have the empathy to understand layers of characterization as we can see them in One Piece. One Piece will show you its true color ONLY when you combine the two, which usually happen if you care about things like empathy or when you can binge the entire story which pushes the elements of characterization closer.
The example that I always bring up is Sanji. His characterization in Whole Cake AND Wano that was mostly missunderstood on the spot by fans who focused on theorizing and powerscaling. People like me had to hammer the point about his sensibility (before Oda did that in both arc) to make the rest understand that actually, this was perfectly in character and actually amazing for the story. This type of missunderstanding is so common that MOST form of backlash against the story is a derivative of such process. Vegapunk, Zoro, Big Mom, Oden, Yamato etc.. And you will see people like me each time explain to these boyz here what they are missing, things that are then either confirmed by the story (the fact that Yamato stayed for a good reason for ex), either clarified by Oda to hammer the point (Vegapunk and York for ex), either then demonstrated by influencers on youtube (check MelonTee for more understanding on Zoro and Sanji's characterizations), either still missunderstood because people do not make the work to look deeper than the surface layer (Oden for ex.)
Well then, don't start. I think you guyz know this forum enough to know that if you push an opinion on the narration of the story, there will be a good chance that I will over around.
The retroaction is not about the debate that did happen 20 years ago, it's about the social phenomenon of hatred that spreads today. As hatred is a contageous phenomenon.
They were still isolated from the rest of the internet and exterior population that is more casual. This frontiere was breached by the rise of youtube and other social medias.
It only had an impact on that part of the fanbase that we are talking about. The rest grew beyond that influence, which created a much more positive side.
Exactly, that is precisely my point and what I'm trying to fight. The bridge between this part of the fanbase and the casual one is a lot bigger, meaning that forum can now impact the experience of casual audiences as well and the fanbase as a whole.
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The fact that you are now retroactivily trying to start a hate train on Marineford (one of the arc that is considered a masterpiece) is really funny to me. It's like the depiction of everything I've been trying to warn you about.
Since you are starting to run out of hate for the present, you are now slowly parasiting and self-rotting your entire past-experiences mainly because you stopped trying to enjoy it in the present (and stop trying to understand it mostly). And you are not the only one, the hate on pre-timeskip is starting to grow in the forum. It will soon reach the same form of hatred as post-timeskip.
Incredible
The arc didn't age poorly, you did
Since you are starting to run out of hate for the present, you are now slowly parasiting and self-rotting your entire past-experiences mainly because you stopped trying to enjoy it in the present (and stop trying to understand it mostly). And you are not the only one, the hate on pre-timeskip is starting to grow in the forum. It will soon reach the same form of hatred as post-timeskip.
Incredible
The arc didn't age poorly, you did
We need to realize a war is tactical battle, it's not a settings for 1 vs 1 extended fight to flash your abilities.
Oda's always emphasis how quantity/ quality. If you are decent fighters you are getting jumped every second, they'll coming back even after you defeat them and you need watch out to not harm your fellow soldiers with your move. That's why every top tiers look so restricted.
Let's also not forget that MarineFord was like few hours at best.
Oda's always emphasis how quantity/ quality. If you are decent fighters you are getting jumped every second, they'll coming back even after you defeat them and you need watch out to not harm your fellow soldiers with your move. That's why every top tiers look so restricted.
Let's also not forget that MarineFord was like few hours at best.
Lmao
4th Shinobi War Tobirama and Hashirama would have woken up from Orochimaru's control right at this moment. There would be no plot left in Naruto with a dead Orochimaru lol
Yet here they were mindless, well behaved puppets.
Not even gonna talk about their actual strength and the fact that Hiruzen and a monkey defeated them relatively easily.
4th Shinobi War Tobirama and Hashirama would have woken up from Orochimaru's control right at this moment. There would be no plot left in Naruto with a dead Orochimaru lol
Yet here they were mindless, well behaved puppets.
Not even gonna talk about their actual strength and the fact that Hiruzen and a monkey defeated them relatively easily.
PL clarifications for those who think Oda is inconsistent with PL’s:
Code:
Helmeppo-28
Koby-39
Tashigi-34
Buggy-40
Law-74
Base Luffy-76
Inazuma-90
Hina-180
Smoker-200
Van Augur-200
Squard-210
Curiel-240
Moria-240
Decalvan Brothers-120 each. 240 together
Sentomaru-275
Jesus Burgess-280
Crocodile-280
Pacifista-296
Ivankov-380
Oars Jr. -390
Momonga-400
Kuma-400
Mr. 3-420
Boa Hancock-470
Jinbei-480
Shiryu-480
Ace-580
Dolflamingo-600
Yami Blackbeard-630
Izo-700
Vista-740
Jozu-780
Marco-1,440
Gura Blackbeard- 1,600
Kizaru-2.000
Ben Beckmann-2,360
Aokiji-2,400
Akainu-2,500
Garp-2,420
Sengoku-2,160
Oldbeard-2,960
Shanks-3,400
Mihawk- 3,400
Haki is not visible like 80 percent of the time even post-timeskip and this is probably the biggest reading comprehension issue in the entire fandom.
"Armament Hardening" is a unique separate move from regular haki use, in the same way that "internal destruction" is a separate move. Black coating is not inconsistent, it's just not used all the time.
In Fishman Island, when Pekoms punches Caribou while explaining Haki, he doesn't use coating. He's just using basic haki.
In Punk Hazard, there are 4 consecutive pages one chapter where Luffy hits Caesar in his gas form with no black coating and draws blood. Caesar says "oh that hurt!" and then Luffy attacks him with "armament hardening" and says hardening out loud and turns his fists black. Caesar reacts like this is a different move.
In Dressrosa, Zoro's entire arc is about Mihawk teaching him how to use Armament Hardening to prevent his swords from breaking, which is portrayed constantly as something different from normal haki use.
In Dressrosa, Luffy's Gear 4 has Oda make a point to show Armament Hardening physically changing the properties of his rubber, making it stretch less/compress tighter. It's compared to "vulcanization". Luffy can use Haki normally without doing this.
In Egghead, Franky punches Luffy and hurts him, and Luffy literally says in dialogue this is because he and the others have haki. The illiterate fanbase argues to this day that Franky doesn't have Armament and can't use it even though Luffy says he has it and uses it, because he only uses basic haki and not Hardening
Almost every use of basic armament haki is completely invisible and it is used constantly in the manga even up until Elbaf with no visuals at all. This is not a mistake, this is just what basic armament haki is. When the Admirals block the gura gura wave with emission haki in Marineford, that is consistent with Ryuo use as described in Wano.
Only Hardening is black, and Hardening is a specific technique that not everyone uses, not everyone uses all the time, and isn't necessarily even a measure of haki strength, just physical hardness/resiliency
"Armament Hardening" is a unique separate move from regular haki use, in the same way that "internal destruction" is a separate move. Black coating is not inconsistent, it's just not used all the time.
In Fishman Island, when Pekoms punches Caribou while explaining Haki, he doesn't use coating. He's just using basic haki.
In Punk Hazard, there are 4 consecutive pages one chapter where Luffy hits Caesar in his gas form with no black coating and draws blood. Caesar says "oh that hurt!" and then Luffy attacks him with "armament hardening" and says hardening out loud and turns his fists black. Caesar reacts like this is a different move.
In Dressrosa, Zoro's entire arc is about Mihawk teaching him how to use Armament Hardening to prevent his swords from breaking, which is portrayed constantly as something different from normal haki use.
In Dressrosa, Luffy's Gear 4 has Oda make a point to show Armament Hardening physically changing the properties of his rubber, making it stretch less/compress tighter. It's compared to "vulcanization". Luffy can use Haki normally without doing this.
In Egghead, Franky punches Luffy and hurts him, and Luffy literally says in dialogue this is because he and the others have haki. The illiterate fanbase argues to this day that Franky doesn't have Armament and can't use it even though Luffy says he has it and uses it, because he only uses basic haki and not Hardening
Almost every use of basic armament haki is completely invisible and it is used constantly in the manga even up until Elbaf with no visuals at all. This is not a mistake, this is just what basic armament haki is. When the Admirals block the gura gura wave with emission haki in Marineford, that is consistent with Ryuo use as described in Wano.
Only Hardening is black, and Hardening is a specific technique that not everyone uses, not everyone uses all the time, and isn't necessarily even a measure of haki strength, just physical hardness/resiliency
i promise everyone if you just take my word for it haki will make 10000 times more sense. it's not inconsistent visuals, you are just scaling it wrong and pretending "base armament" or "invisible armor" doesn't exist, and that black coating = strong haki, even though it's actually black coating = physically harder and heavier
