Character Discussion Mihawk’s “sense of self”

#21
why is the Dialogue of Mihawk talking about this unchanging “sense of self” written in the same panel as Zoro puts his bandanna on and starts using CoC?
Because your "sense of self" IS your "dream". The dedication of trying to turn your dream into reality, of bringing a potential future into reality, IS the key to unlocking CoC. But, you probably need to be able to "envision" that future to some level, which Zoro may have just done.

"You are what you dream" more or less. Which...feels like it could be the moral at the heart of this entire story, really.
Well that’s a problem for Sanji then since Sanji has abandoned fulfilling his dream many times.
I'm not sure if that actually matters.

Being dedicated to making your dream a reality is what's important. It doesn't matter if you gave up on it, in the past. What matters is what you choose to do now.

I think you can falter. You can doubt. You can change your mind. As long as you don't let those doubts swallow you, having those feelings is fine.

That's kind of what Cross Guild seems to be all about. (Cross Guild can be about many things, after all.) Giving people a second chance to find new dreams. Their old dreams didn't work out. Their plans went bust. But, there's still hope for them, if they keep going. Even if your old dream didn't work out, you can still find a new one to work toward.

Because that's what I think Mihawk will have to do. Mihawk needs to learn that it's okay to find a new dream, later in life. It's like someone changing careers in their 40s. It's hard, but you can do it. Mihawk's been focused on one, limited dream for so long he can't imagine anything else. So, he has to free himself from the mental trap he's put himself in.

Sanji's dream...likely needs refinement. He wants to be a great chef, and to find the All Blue. Perhaps, to give himself a more concrete vision of his future, which may allow him to unlock his CoC, he needs to think about WHO he will be cooking for? Not so much changing his dream. But, changing what he chooses to focus on.

So, yeah, if I'm right, I guess everyone's getting therapy sessions! Really getting to the core of what they want, and any mental blocks they may have that may get in the way of them achieving that.
you’re saying Luffy’s refusal to ever abandon his dream is what makes him a CoC user? Or it’s what gives him CoC? I don’t know what you’re saying
I think being a CoC user means knowing what kind of future you want to see turned into reality. It's about what you want to BUILD for the future.

And yes, that does mean that Luffy is a little bit special. Because he's been so dedicated to his dream for so long. But, not everyone can or should be like that. And I think the lesson will be that it's okay if you change your mind later. Not all dreams last a lifetime. But, some do. It just kind of depends. You need a "sense of self" to know when and if your dream is changing.

I'll admit, it is a bit of a contradiction. Or a zen koan. You need to be aware of your unchanging self to know what parts of you are changing and respond in kind.

It's kind of like figuring out what you want to do when you grow up. Some people know exactly what they want to be when their kids. Some people don't know until later. And some people change their minds, as they gain more experience. There are different paths to finding your dream.

...I'll admit this is all very abstract and psycho-babbly sounding. But, I think that might be the direction we're heading in, given some of the themes that Oda seems to want to play with.
 
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HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
‎
#22
Because your "sense of self" IS your "dream". The dedication of trying to turn your dream into reality, of bringing a potential future into reality, IS the key to unlocking CoC. But, you probably need to be able to "envision" that future to some level, which Zoro may have just done.

"You are what you dream" more or less. Which...feels like it could be the moral at the heart of this entire story, really.

I'm not sure if that actually matters.

Being dedicated to making your dream a reality is what's important. It doesn't matter if you gave up on it, in the past. What matters is what you choose to do now.

I think you can falter. You can doubt. You can change your mind. As long as you don't let those doubts swallow you, having those feelings is fine.

That's kind of what Cross Guild seems to be all about. (Cross Guild can be about many things, after all.) Giving people a second chance to find new dreams. Their old dreams didn't work out. Their plans went bust. But, there's still hope for them, if they keep going. Even if your old dream didn't work out, you can still find a new one to work toward.

Because that's what I think Mihawk will have to do. Mihawk needs to learn that it's okay to find a new dream, later in life. It's like someone changing careers in their 40s. It's hard, but you can do it. Mihawk's been focused on one, limited dream for so long he can't imagine anything else. So, he has to free himself from the mental trap he's put himself in.

Sanji's dream...likely needs refinement. He wants to be a great chef, and to find the All Blue. Perhaps, to give himself a more concrete vision of his future, which may allow him to unlock his CoC, he needs to think about WHO he will be cooking for? Not so much changing his dream. But, changing what he chooses to focus on.

So, yeah, if I'm right, I guess everyone's getting therapy sessions! Really getting to the core of what they want, and any mental blocks they may have that may get in the way of them achieving that.

I think being a CoC user means knowing what kind of future you want to see turned into reality. It's about what you want to BUILD for the future.

And yes, that does mean that Luffy is a little bit special. Because he's been so dedicated to his dream for so long. But, not everyone can or should be like that. And I think the lesson will be that it's okay if you change your mind later. Not all dreams last a lifetime. But, some due. It just kind of depends.

...I'll admit this is all very abstract and psycho-babbly sounding. But, I think that might be the direction we're heading in, given some of the themes that Oda seems to want to play with.
You cant keep having dreams once you achieve them or you lose your coc thats retarded.
 
#23
Because your "sense of self" IS your "dream"
you’re not answering my question. I’m not asking for your interpretation. You said that everything Mihawk is saying is nonsense. I’m asking why is nonsense being put in the panel of Zoro triumphing and mastering his coc


according to you, this is a panel of Zoro learning his CoC with a speech bubble of bullshit being inserted
I'm not sure if that actually matters.
You just made a list about how Luffy never abandoning his dream is what Shanks recognized and then now you’re saying abandoning your dream doesn’t matter

Also why aren’t all the strawhats CoC users then? Most of the other strawhats are more dedicated to their dreams than Sanji ever was or ever will be
 
#24
You cant keep having dreams once you achieve them or you lose your coc thats retarded.
Well, that's when you have to find a new one! A new dream to make into reality!

Kind of like starting a new manga, after working on ONE manga your entire life for 30 years! Sometimes you need to find a new dream and not cling to a old one. Which I think may be Mihawk's problem. But, again, we'll see.

you’re not answering my question. I’m not asking for your interpretation. You said that everything Mihawk is saying is nonsense. I’m asking why is nonsense being put in the panel of Zoro triumphing and mastering his coc
I'm not saying the "finding your sense of self" part is nonsense. I'm saying the "unchanging" part is nonsense. Or at least the idea that you can't change your personality or goals, because of it.

Plus, it illustrates what Zoro is finding and what Mihawk is lacking, since he's not in that panel. Mihawk is literally separated from his "sense of self". By a whole page, even! (Maybe that's a little too meta of a read for Oda, but I'll take my shot.)

Because CoC CAN change. Just being able to "unlock" your CoC shows that it CAN change. If CoC was truly "unchanging" from when you were first born, then we'd have babies shooting out CoC lightning left and right. And none of those treasure-chest babies have done that, yet.

We've seen this arc, from Scopper, that you CAN "train" your CoC. You can focus it. You can use it to use different techniques. You can learn to coat weapons with it.

And I think you CAN find a different dream, in order to unlock your CoC again. Which is what I think Mihawk will ultimately do. It's sort of like with confidence. Just because you lose your confidence, doesn't mean you can't ever get it back again.




I feel like the fundamental disagreement here is actually the question of "Is CoC genetic"? Or "Is CoC predetermined"? And, I don't know for sure, but I get the feeling that you believe that it is. That you're either born a Conqueror, or you're not, and there's nothing you can do to change that. So, I think you're trying to find this "innate thing" that explains why some people get Conquerors and others don't.

Personally, I'm coming from this from the other direction. I think ANYONE can be a Conqueror, as long as they find a dream they want to make a reality.

"Anyone can CoC! Not everyone can become a great Haki-man. But, a great Haki-man CAN come from anywhere."

That's the thing, though. You can't "train" that. You can't "train" someone into wanting a future to come true so badly that they work for it every day.

I think some people are interpreting the "You can't train for CoC" thing as "you have to be born with it". But, personally, I see it more like "inspiration". You can't "train" inspiration. It either comes to you or it doesn't. It requires a little bit of luck. It's like coming up with ideas, or finding just the right word. You can PREPARE for it. But, you can't really TRAIN it.
Also why aren’t all the strawhats CoC users then? Most of the other strawhats are more dedicated to their dreams than Sanji ever was or ever will be
Because, I think a lot of the Strawhats are kind of like Zoro was. Kind of assuming only the Captain gets to have CoC. On some level, anyway.

Because, a lot of their dreams kind of became secondary to helping Luffy achieve his dream. Their dreams kind of got put on the backburner. But, that doesn't mean it disqualifies them from having CoC. I just think a lot of them really haven't been able to "visualize" what their preferred futures actually look like. They've been busy, and they probably haven't thought much about the long-term. They've been too busy trying to survive the Grand Line, and all these life or death situations. They don't really have a long-term plan. And I think long-term thinking is kind of a requirement for a Conqueror.

They also may have to "adjust" some of their dreams. They may have to think more specifically. That may be another key, here. Not giving up or changing the dreams we know about. But, just "refocusing" them into something a little different. But, we'll see about that.

By the end of the story, chances are, they will all have CoC. It'll probably be more sudden then we might like, but they'll probably get it. They just have to have the right switch flipped in their brains to let themselves have it.
 
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#25
idea that you can't change your personality or goals
And who said your “sense of self” is reducible to “personality or goals”

you’re randomly adding words to Mihawk’s statement that he never claimed and then say that the words YOU ADDED are nonsense


I think a lot of the Strawhats are kind of like Zoro was. Kind of assuming only the Captain gets to have CoC. On some level, anyway.
I want to remind you that Zoro was using CoC while also thinking only captains can have it

So we know for a fact that whatever Zoro thinks of CoC doesn’t actually stop him from using it

If your idea, which you claim is nonsense, turns out to be true, then are you implying you think All the strawhats will be revealed to be CoC users in the story on panel?
 

MUUGEN

呪のろいの王
‎
#30
According to Mihawk, CoC users have an UNCHANGING “sense of self”. Supposedly this is what separates them from the rest of the verse

Lets try and find out what about Mihawk is unchanging that defines him

His WSS title.

The first thing that Mihawk says will not change is that he will “wait at the top of the world” for Zoro. According to Mihawk, he is at the very top of the world, of swordsmen, and That will NOT change no matter how long it takes Zoro to become a contender.

His morals.

According to his brief backstory, mihawk started hunting the marines out of some sense of justice due to a betrayal. He then more or less starts working with the marines as a Warlord supposedly after he has avenged this betrayal. And then he restarts his marine hunting as part of Cross guild, as a cover for Making money for Crocodile.

At no point does it seem to matter to Mihawk that the marines are the “good guys” on the side of “justice”. Mihawk decided that whatever justice he was owed meant that he can kill as many of them as is necessary and then afterwards he’s even fine being a warlord to prevent them from pestering him and now he’s hunting them for money.

Whatever Mihawk considers Right and Wrong seemingly transcends the marines and the WG and is unchanging in either direction, either antagonizing the WG or working for it doesn’t change what he’s decided is his justice.

His Black blade.

This is an external thing but Black blades have something to do with Haki and Haki is an internal thing. Yoru is unchanging by nature of supposedly being undamageable.

We’ve seen from Imu that hundreds of years old swords require magic powers to “revive” them to fighting shape yet Black Blade Shusui was buried with Ryuma for hundreds of Years and it was completely fine when it was dug up.

Maybe Mihawk’s unchanging “sense of self” has something to do with the way Black blades are made to seemingly be unchanging objects too. Like the unchanging nature of CoC itself gets transferred to the swords.

His isolation

Mihawk has shown that he CAN be part of a group such the Warlords or Cross guild. And mihawk CAN have companions like Perona, Zoro and Shanks. He CAN be around people, he just doesn’t value anyone when it comes to his actual goals.

His goal is strength and Mihawk doesn’t value anyone in that regard. Zoro says he fights and gets stronger for his crew, Mihawk fights and gets stronger for himself.

Mihawk has been around so many people and groups with so many ideologies and yet above anyone he’s ever met, he remains isolated because the only thing he really cares about is his own Strength which he grows only for himself.

Mihawk is quite literally the only character in the story so isolated that he is strong for the sake of being strong and for no one but himself.

Think about that, not even the villains like Doffy, Teach or Kaido are this self-obsessed and self-isolating. Even freaking Imu is seemingly close to the Holy knights and the Gorosei and has this Ideology around Domination that he follows.

I actually think this is why Zoro looked at S-Hawk and said Mihawk is LESS HUMAN than a mind-controlled Cyborg clone. At least S-hawk has an objective given to him by other people. Mihawk by contrast doesn’t give a shit about anyone or anything but himself to an inhuman degree.
my guy you already made a sense of self thread
 
#33
He more obedient to command but they were surprised he was at Warlord meeting and left MF before orders. This don't make a lick of sense. Then Zoro literally says he doesn't believe Mihawk is the type to work under somebody in cross guilt. You make 0 sense.
Just tell me you don't understand my point. Zoro saying Mihawk is less human than a cyborg would mean that Mihawk is having less sense of self than a robot, not supporting a sense of self a CoC user should have.
 
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