Chapter Discussion I dont like how Oda treats Vinsmoke brothers

#21
They dont have empathy so they cant tell wrong from right since they cant feel anything and they were thought by judge to be ruthless and "Bad people" they didnt just randomly learn cooking as prince is a pathetic thing, it was taught by judge
Judge wanted ice cold killers and thats how he taught his sons:kriwhat:
They can't tell right from wrong, yet only choose to be "wrong". They can just as easily do the "right" things if they wanted.
No empathy /= Evil.
 
#22
I honestly dont like how he ( And sanji through oda i guess ) treat Three other Vinsmoke brothers
Oda treats them as if they are this ultimate big bad assholes. While dont get me wrong, they are terrible assholes to not just sanji, but everyone
Murderers and assholes all round. HOWEVER, they are all Judge's victims. Its not thats their choice to be like that, they were CREATED that way. Even when they were facing death themselves in the wedding, they were laughing at judge and themselves for being fools. Shows that their like that, its not a choice. Its in their nature cause their victims of Judge
I'd be disappointed if Sanji at least doesnt address this with Chopper/Franky. See if he can do something about them
As the Kindest person, would be weird to leave them behind
After all, Sora wanted ALL of her children to have Emotions
While I agree to some degree, wouldn't those siblings would feel guilty and break down themselves due to their past actions once they received their emotions back? They will be traumatized for sometime. However for the better good it would be nice by EOS Sanji works out for a cure with the help of vegapunk's knowledge, ancient lost technology plus chopper's help to figure something out.

Also not related to this thread, but I think Sanji's final hurdle to the final PU would be that he accepts his germa side as well as his emotional side totally. Making those eye brows turn to 69 (lol)
- In wano he didn't accept germa side but rather accepted the consequences if he went emotionless and entrusted zoro to end him if it comes to that and used germa's knew found ability to achieve new level of temperature to create Ifrit Jambe (Note that his flames or the level of temperature he can reach depends solely in his level of emotions and will/haki. Since his body cannot withstand those higher level of temperature he willingly does not let himself reach those higher temperatures. Which is why once he achieved exoskeleton he immediately went for higher level of temperature)
- In Elbaph he completely shut down germa's side while totally accepting his emotional side which helped him to love himself and PU through haki

So in theory if uses both of them to it's maximum (Accepting Germa means accepting all the changes which evolves his body physically and accepting emotions means reaching max level of haki/Fire) Sanji would be able to reach his best level of temperature via haki and will have a body which can withstand it. Would be a walking nuke if he did that.

Also I think Sanji will accept an attribute of zoro which he always disliked or gave a blind eye (the very same reason why both of them always had beef with one another despite praising the other time to time) and vice versa to reach their final PU. Hoping to make a thread about it
 
#23
They can't tell right from wrong, yet only choose to be "wrong". They can just as easily do the "right" things if they wanted.
No empathy /= Evil.
They've only been thought to do bad
Judge has teached them to:
Treat anyone not royal like shit
Only do stuff that suit "royals"
Be stone cold killers
Treat their brother like shit cause he likes to cook
No one has dared to tell them anything else, they cant tell good from bad and been in Judge's bubble their whole life
 
#24
But they cant feel any compassion towards anything or anyone, including themselves that which basically limits their so called "Free will" to be forced into being villains.
Some people do not feel compassion, But they were raised to be assholes.

They still have free will. What the Vinsmoke have that Sanji hasn't is a submissive switch (even tho I question it at the end of this post). This is something that seems to be inherant to their birth and construction. Sanji escaped that, but it's not possible for them. It's probably coded in their very DNA. Perhaps one day Judge or them will find a way to free themselves, but that is not something Sanji can do. Oda left the door open, but that is all.

He also took away their empathy tough.
Yes.. possible, but I'm still not sure of that, even if everything points to a lack of empathy.

I think Oda made a point at showing that bad education equates to a programming where empathy is gone. But One Piece is a story of miracles. Things can happen.. empathy can be restored. I don't know if Oda is planning anything, but if he does, we will probably know about it during the war.


He also took away their empathy tough.
It seemed like the stronger the cyborg was, the worse it was. Ichiji didn't even flinch when Reiju was down. Added to the inability to refuse to obey to Judge?
The OP is right, his brothers are victims, Judge made them like that, they're almost slaves....
Empathy is just one of the factor that can help being ethical. Lacking this does not make them slave by essence, it's their education that created most of the problem.

And in a way, you are right, they are indeed slave, slave of a father figure they can't escape and probably won't. Not necessarily by physical or genetic pressure (technically, nothing has been shown to depict a form of consequence of rebellion or impossibility of it), but by mental pressure. They are, like many kids, prisonners of a father figure.

This is the point Oda is making. It's purposely tragic and questionnable. It reflects situations where children will choose to side with their abusive parents, no matter what. Whole Cake is big reflection on this subject.


Whuch is why that plotline isn't finished and will be adressed (Neo MADS,etc)
I'm not sure about that.


It's also heavily implied that Sanji himself could one day have to break free from Judges control, the surgery worked, it was delayed but successful. If he has awakened an exoskeleton, he might pretty soon be vulnerable to his father's commands.
He already did.

I think you also all need to pounder the idea that the genetic submission might be non existent in the Vinsmoke even if present in the clones. It might simply be a mental submission, created by the way Judge pushed them into his agenda.

Sanji escaped that in whole cake. That was the entire purpose of his conversation with Judge in the castle.
 
#25
???? He treats them exactly how they are.
What? You want Sanji to remember them like they were some good people? No, they are trash and fucked Sanjis childhood to the point blud wanted to ks.
Lmfao
Woke mentality that destroys the society, oh poor little monsters, they did nothing wrong, sumone else fault.
Its like saying its not the killers fault, its the person who paid for the k, calm down dog.
 
#26
I think you also all need to pounder the idea that the genetic submission might be non existent in the Vinsmoke even if present in the clones. It might simply be a mental submission, created by the way Judge pushed them into his agenda.

Sanji escaped that in whole cake. That was the entire purpose of his conversation with Judge in the castle.

I like what you said here regarding how education can shape a child mentality leading to submission.
In "The Boys", that's the method "Vault" used to control Homelander.
However, if there wasn't more to it than psychological domination, programing, it wouldn't explain what is happening with Reiju.
She knows how wrong Germa's ideology and behaviour are, she didn't even warn them they were about to be killed, thinking they deserved it. Yet she doesn't run away, still following orders.

I think Sanji hasn't fully transformed yet, that's why Judge's influence didn't work at the time. It would be interesting to see what happens when his eyebrows switch, his Vinsmoke side fully activated.
 
#28
I honestly dont like how he ( And sanji through oda i guess ) treat Three other Vinsmoke brothers
Oda treats them as if they are this ultimate big bad assholes. While dont get me wrong, they are terrible assholes to not just sanji, but everyone
Murderers and assholes all round. HOWEVER, they are all Judge's victims. Its not thats their choice to be like that, they were CREATED that way. Even when they were facing death themselves in the wedding, they were laughing at judge and themselves for being fools. Shows that their like that, its not a choice. Its in their nature cause their victims of Judge
I'd be disappointed if Sanji at least doesnt address this with Chopper/Franky. See if he can do something about them
As the Kindest person, would be weird to leave them behind
After all, Sora wanted ALL of her children to have Emotions
Nice thread bro.
I think something will happen in the future. Propably their cure will have some connection with future Kuma's cure.
 
#31
I like what you said here regarding how education can shape a child mentality leading to submission.
In "The Boys", that's the method "Vault" used to control Homelander.
However, if there wasn't more to it than psychological domination, programing, it wouldn't explain what is happening with Reiju.
She knows how wrong Germa's ideology and behaviour are, she didn't even warn them they were about to be killed, thinking they deserved it. Yet she doesn't run away, still following orders.

I think Sanji hasn't fully transformed yet, that's why Judge's influence didn't work at the time. It would be interesting to see what happens when his eyebrows switch, his Vinsmoke side fully activated.
Reiju and all other Vinsmoke siblings can't disobey Judge's orders. Reiju has her own thoughts and feelings, but she is also modified like her siblings. Reiju is older and her emotions weren't taken away at birth like her brothers'.
 
#33
I like what you said here regarding how education can shape a child mentality leading to submission.
In "The Boys", that's the method "Vault" used to control Homelander.
However, if there wasn't more to it than psychological domination, programing, it wouldn't explain what is happening with Reiju.
She knows how wrong Germa's ideology and behaviour are, she didn't even warn them they were about to be killed, thinking they deserved it. Yet she doesn't run away, still following orders.

I think Sanji hasn't fully transformed yet, that's why Judge's influence didn't work at the time. It would be interesting to see what happens when his eyebrows switch, his Vinsmoke side fully activated.
That's the thing. A person can know their parents are bad news for them and still be pushed to follow them no matter what. Through a form of mental domination relative to education and twisted love. This is why Big Mom's children still fight all the way for their mother despite knowing that she is completely dangerous for them. Only a few had the courage to get out of the grip. Katakuri, for example, went from having to fight for her and his siblings, to expecting a form of liberation.

Reiju was the first. It's safe to say that Judge was much less toxic and controlling with her at first or even considered that she needed less to be controlled. On top of that, Reiju was also raised by her mother who taught her empathy and love. Showing that even if a lack of emotion was in her DNA, Reiju was still capable of learning how to feel them. And I think this is the point, the problem has never been the lack of human emotion, but how Judge raised them and forbid the boys from seeing their mother. Creating assholes in the process.

What happened with Reiju is the same that happened with Sanji. It's just that Sanji was naturally enclined to feel more. So I think that while Reiju and the rest could be technically genetically submissed to Judge, it's a bit deeper and more alike to an attraction to a toxic parent as we can observe in real life.
 
#38
i would say oda portrayed judge and the germa siblings differently
Judge abused sanji, and thats why at the wci wedding we had some kind of conclusion where sanji ironically told judge to never call him his son anymore. So in a way, we can say Judge was the villain to sanji's story and that was their ending.
Meanwhile, sanji never had some concluding ending with his brothers.
Didnt they jokingly say goodbye to him by calling him „failure“
 
Top