Chapter Discussion I dont like how Oda treats Vinsmoke brothers

[soheilhazrat]

Oda lazily gave them similar names and appearences to the Cook..so they dont have a much bigger Role than that of being Evil Bros
Btw wasnt there the scene with seeing nami and Heart eyes..so they have some feelings

they have dicks not feelings

 

[Juanpiz]

they have dicks not feelings

Being attracted to someone is emotion too

 

[soheilhazrat]

Being attracted to someone is emotion too

Vinsomke situation is complicated, its more like they have no compassion or empathy. If they didnt had "feelings" outright, they wouldnt also feel pain.

 

[Juanpiz]

Vinsomke situation is complicated, its more like they have no compassion or empathy. If they didnt had "feelings" outright, they wouldnt also feel pain.

But their father does for sure have lol

 

[soheilhazrat]

But their father does for sure have lol

Yeah i never wanted any redemption for judge, as i said he is the villain and brothers are victims, sanji more than others

 

[Juanpiz]

Yeah i never wanted any redemption for judge, as i said he is the villain and brothers are victims, sanji more than others

He let Cook Live and leave.i guess Thats sth lol

 

[Proto00]

That's the thing. A person can know their parents are bad news for them and still be pushed to follow them no matter what. Through a form of mental domination relative to education and twisted love. This is why Big Mom's children still fight all the way for their mother despite knowing that she is completely dangerous for them. Only a few had the courage to get out of the grip. Katakuri, for example, went from having to fight for her and his siblings, to expecting a form of liberation.

Whole cake island explored the topic of family extensively, that's one of the reason why i do think Judge's control over his children is more than conditioning.
Indeed, there were sensible reasons for why the Charlotte children made certain choice. Katakuri couldn't abandon before knowing that Luffy had what it takes to change the world for the better, including for his family. Big Mom's fall highlighted how important she was as a deterent for Totland, the country immediatly attacked by Kuzan after her defeat on Onigashima.
Reiju lost faith in Germa, and was fine with the idea of them being wiped out.
Hence why i think she can't totally disobey judge due to some DNA tampering, like the Seraphims.
Even tough, we know in OP, topic touched upon on Egghead,that even cyborgs and machines have always free will to some extent (cf Kuma).
Which would justify why conditioning is also so important.

Reiju was the first. It's safe to say that Judge was much less toxic and controlling with her at first or even considered that she needed less to be controlled. On top of that, Reiju was also raised by her mother who taught her empathy and love. Showing that even if a lack of emotion was in her DNA, Reiju was still capable of learning how to feel them. And I think this is the point, the problem has never been the lack of human emotion, but how Judge raised them and forbid the boys from seeing their mother. Creating assholes in the process.

I think it was stated that Reiju has empathy, unlike her brothers. She was the prototype. Judge went further with the boys which is insane.
But we could clearly see that they still have some emotions and attachement, with the way Niji and Ichiji reacted when Judge was put down by Big Mom. Ichiji, the strongest, seemed to be the most Heartless.
But i do agree, Judge made things way worse with his conditioning, they are the way they are not only because of what he did to them in terms of genetic modifications,but also because of how he raised them.
Sanji will be the perfect counter example, which will allow him to keep his humanity/free will in my opinion. But still, the medecine that Sora took gave him that chance, delaying the awakening of his powers (thus his brutality when his eyebrows switch).

What happened with Reiju is the same that happened with Sanji. It's just that Sanji was naturally enclined to feel more. So I think that while Reiju and the rest could be technically genetically submissed to Judge, it's a bit deeper and more alike to an attraction to a toxic parent as we can observe in real life.

Judge also didn't affect his daughters empathy, positive feelings. That's something he did with the boys. Unfortunately, for her, he did increase her submission. Sanji was saved because all of these changes weren't activated immediatly due to the medicine his mother took. Sanji is slowly becoming what Judge wanted, i think Judge always suspected it, hence why he tested his son in a fight on WCI, and gave him the Raid Suit to accelerate the transformation. The biggest mistake of his life was to give up on Sanji too soon.

But regardless, Judge is the real culprit. And Sanji has a responsability towards his siblings and Germa as a kingdom, he has to save his family and the clones from Judges. Because he was lucky to escape that fate thanks to Sora and the people he met after his escape.

 

[Logiko]

Sanji is slowly becoming what Judge wanted

I agree with most but this. Sanji is becoming the opposite of what Judge wanted. Judge wanted soldiers that would have no will, no feelings, no reason to help others or themselves. Sanji is indeed becoming stronger because of his body, but that only a physical and frankly secondary attribute, this is not the reason of the power up here, everything is about his desire to love others and now... his own body. I think Judge developped a weird twisted respect for Sanji, hence why he gave him the suit. Not sure if he understands it himself tho.

And Sanji has a responsability towards his siblings and Germa as a kingdom, he has to save his family and the clones from Judges

Absolutely not.

Sanji is a victim with a kind heart, not superman, he has no responsability of saving his family, they will have to deal with this own their own. Perhaps it will happen, perhaps not, but that is for another story to tell.

 

[Juanpiz]

Whole cake island explored the topic of family extensively, that's one of the reason why i do think Judge's control over his children is more than conditioning.
Indeed, there were sensible reasons for why the Charlotte children made certain choice. Katakuri couldn't abandon before knowing that Luffy had what it takes to change the world for the better, including for his family. Big Mom's fall highlighted how important she was as a deterent for Totland, the country immediatly attacked by Kuzan after her defeat on Onigashima.
Reiju lost faith in Germa, and was fine with the idea of them being wiped out.
Hence why i think she can't totally disobey judge due to some DNA tampering, like the Seraphims.
Even tough, we know in OP, topic touched upon on Egghead,that even cyborgs and machines have always free will to some extent (cf Kuma).
Which would justify why conditioning is also so important.




I think it was stated that Reiju has empathy, unlike her brothers. She was the prototype. Judge went further with the boys which is insane.
But we could clearly see that they still have some emotions and attachement, with the way Niji and Ichiji reacted when Judge was put down by Big Mom. Ichiji, the strongest, seemed to be the most Heartless.
But i do agree, Judge made things way worse with his conditioning, they are the way they are not only because of what he did to them in terms of genetic modifications,but also because of how he raised them.
Sanji will be the perfect counter example, which will allow him to keep his humanity/free will in my opinion. But still, the medecine that Sora took gave him that chance, delaying the awakening of his powers (thus his brutality when his eyebrows switch).







Judge also didn't affect his daughters empathy, positive feelings. That's something he did with the boys. Unfortunately, for her, he did increase her submission. Sanji was saved because all of these changes weren't activated immediatly due to the medicine his mother took. Sanji is slowly becoming what Judge wanted, i think Judge always suspected it, hence why he tested his son in a fight on WCI, and gave him the Raid Suit to accelerate the transformation. The biggest mistake of his life was to give up on Sanji too soon.

But regardless, Judge is the real culprit. And Sanji has a responsability towards his siblings and Germa as a kingdom, he has to save his family and the clones from Judges. Because he was lucky to escape that fate thanks to Sora and the people he met after his escape.

Responsibility?they are adults,he isnt their babysitter

 

[vikas]

How can you blame this guy.....look at him

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

I feel that not every villain has to be redeemed

 

[Proto00]

I agree with most but this. Sanji is becoming the opposite of what Judge wanted. Judge wanted soldiers that would have no will, no feelings, no reason to help others or themselves. Sanji is indeed becoming stronger because of his body, but that only a physical and frankly secondary attribute, this is not the reason of the power up here, everything is about his desire to love others and now... his own body. I think Judge developped a weird twisted respect for Sanji, hence why he gave him the suit. Not sure if he understands it himself tho.
.

He is becoming both.
He is growing as a strawhat, Zeff's adoptive son , Ivankov student and a haki master.
But his engineered body also evolved, sign that the stronger he gets, the stronger his modificated body also gets. He has to keep this under control.
I think this isn't the last time his eyebrows switch.
This chapter he made a conscious choice to rely on his haki and didn't tap into his "cyborg" body as much as he could.
Things might happen moving forward where he will need everything he can and/or will be so enraged that the vicious Vinsmoke side will come out.

Absolutely not.

Sanji is a victim with a kind heart, not superman, he has no responsability of saving his family, they will have to deal with this own their own. Perhaps it will happen, perhaps not, but that is for another story to tell

Responsibility?they are adults,he isnt their babysitter

Sanji had one chance his brothers didn't.
His modifications were delayed.
He also saved his family on WCI, so he is responsible to some extent regarding what Germa and Neo Mads will do.
As a conqueror, a King, he has to stop Germs....just like the hero Sofa did in the comics....